Scouting In The Church

[Duncan]

I like the pun! I've seen some who asses Scouting as the priority, or the whole Aaronic Priesthood program; I also think it is human nature that people with very good experieinces with its application under one set of conditions cannot let go of that specific application/format when conditions change and require another.

I suspect the temporal llama/elephant team might be offset by the spiritual llama/elephant team and keep moving ahead for the benefit of Zion.

for the record the word is "assess"!

[cinepro]

But my opinion counts for nothing as it should. If we are committed through revelation, I am wrong. If we are committed due to tradition then it is not my call. If it is a horrible mistake to say then it is not my place to step in.

Dang Nehor, for as much as I disagree with your post, I enjoyed reading it far more than I should have.

But now that my daughter and wife are in the Young Women's program, I can understand the disparity between the YM and YW programs, so I'm with you there.

Edited January 16, 2012 by cinepro

[Senator]

I suspect the temporal llama/elephant team might be offset by the spiritual llama/elephant team and keep moving ahead for the benefit of Zion.

Whatever that means in the real world.

[CV75]

Whatever that means in the real world.

You mean the real world of Scouting?

[Senator]

You mean the real world of Scouting?

I don't know, you tell me?

[Que]

But now that my daughter and wife are in the Young Women's program, I can understand the disparity between the YM and YW programs, so I'm with you there.

I have (very strong-willed) daughters. They were regularly commenting on how the YM had more fun... Despite constant encouragement from me to be a strong leader in a YW class presidency and stand up for what they want, I only had one (so far) put her foot down in a MIA Maid presidency and say "We are doing an overnight, daddy-daughter dutch oven/canoe event!" The YW Pres and the Bishop at first gave her a hard time, but eventually relented - and they and we had a blast. She and they just needed to break the mold...

[CV75]

I don't know, you tell me?

As you brought it up, I thought you would clarify your remark. But it's OK that you can't, we can leave it there.

[Calm]

I remember some time back, Hamba T posted how his young mens quorums functioned; notably without the existence of the Scouting program. He highlighed how the goals of the Aaronic priesthood (leadership, service etc.) were realized in the function of the quorum itself. I remember being quite impressed

Very impressed. I was disappointed to find that we had lost his threads in one of the upgrades. I had wanted to refer to them on more than one occasion.

Edited January 16, 2012 by calmoriah

[Senator]

As you brought it up, I thought you would clarify your remark. But it's OK that you can't, we can leave it there.

You introduced the temporal/spiritual dichotomy. I didn't see the relavance when there seems to be such a huge "temporal" imbalance.

[KevinG]

After sitting through my second ward Scout committee meeting today I can certainly see why people have trouble with the way Scouting is done in the Church...

Fundrasing... Camping... Scout Spirit:

I know a few things about LDS Scouting. I have seen the good, the bad and the ugly when it comes to LDS Scouting. I was introduced to the Scouts through the Church as an adult leader. I am also a 20+ year Wood badge Trained, former SM, ASM, Committee Member, Unit Commissioner with an Eagle, a Life and a Star Scout (soon to be 3 Eagles I pray) in my family.

To your points - which are unfortunately valid for some wards and Stakes...

There are some conflicts between the way "other" (Catholic, Methodist, School) Scout units and the LDS Church are run. However in most Wards there is no excuse not to run a full program associated with and supported by the local counsel.

Here are a few unique LDS rules/practices, why I understand we do it "that way" and how to manage them while running a great, boy led, well funded and active Scouting Organization.

1) The LDS calls leaders (but can accept member and non-member volunteers). Callings are inspired and can lead to the growth of the leaders and Scouts. However, in some bad cases this can result in an unprepared, untrained and uninspired Scout leader. A wise Bishop (read: was once a Scoutmaster) will call engaged and excited brethren and insist on paying for their training.

2) Ditto for the Scout committee. But our problems with incomplete or untrained committees happen in non-LDS troops too. Same solution, call good people and train them so they understand it is their job to administer the Troop while the SM trains boys to lead. Scouting is not a calling you can do well just by getting the manual from the last leader in the calling.

...and keep people in callings for more than a year. The LDS Adult service Scouting award is only given after three years of service in the calling - it was designed that way to encourage longer term volunteers.

...and use part member family parents (non-LDS) as leaders if they are willing. Some of these folks are more than eager and willing to lead in Scout callings and they can be GREAT for the boys.

3) Insisting on local control and one-to-one Quorum/Patrol relationships can limit the size and scope of a troop, however I find that the boys having activities during the week and together on Sunday strengthens their relationships and gives their quorums a sense of identity and purpose in gospel and public service.

Opinion alert: Wednesday night basketball is a bigger distraction than priesthood duties. I am of the opinion that taking down the BB hoops in our Ward buildings and banning the older Scouts from making Youth night a sports event would be a positive thing. (Not exclusively - all kids need an outlet, but I've seen YM become the Wed. Basketball league to the neglect of Scouts).

4) Keeping the 11 y/o Scouts as a separate patrol. The advantage of this is additional leadership for the younger boys and a laser beam focus on new Scout skills and getting the boys to 1^st class (or as close as humanly possible) by the time they turn 12. The disadvantage is they don’t integrate with the older boys and some wards seem to treat this age group as optional for real Scouting.

Due to their age the Church limits the number of campouts they can do without Fathers or a Male family member. Too many wards and committees interpret this as no more than one campout. Being blessed with the 11 y/o leader and with the permission of my Bishop - I interpret this as only two campouts without Dad/Parent and the rest of the year as many campouts as we want as long as Dad can help teach/camp/entertain. If there is space we even allow 11 y/o summer campers if Dad is willing to be an additional leader.

5) Fundraising limitations. I’ve sold BSA popcorn. It doesn’t make money. I’ve been a Choir and Band booster. Fundraisers stink.

Limiting the number of fundraisers and focusing one or two big money events is really the way to go IMO. I am a convert to this way of thinking. We have an auction where items are donated and the Ward and neighborhood really go out of their way to support the boys. Camp is usually 50% ward and 25% auction and 25% boys. We’re close to National parks so other than Summer camp the cost of campouts is usually low. Most Utah troops are even closer to wilderness than us. Backyards and brother so-and-so’s farm make good camp spots too.

6) Camping:

Cooking and camping with self made or used equipment is quite doable and helps the boys learn skills better than off the shelf solutions. When families need their mortgage paid, food from the Bishop’s storehouse and electric bills it seems obscene to go on expensive out of state trips other than a special high adventure every 4-5 years. We have made our own High Adventure/50 miler in an upstate wilderness the last several decades and the boys have always thrived.

You can get Scout lore from inexpensive gear suggestions to outdoor cooking on line and the boys can really learn some serious outdoors skills by not buying everything off the shelf. Some money for supplies goes a long way: for example when the boys can build a patrol box in some Brothers shop, or use staples from home to cook gourmet meals.

7) Esprit De Corps: There is no excuse for a Scout not to have at least a uniform shirt, required insignia and a belt. The same goes for leaders – even more so. That is a local problem and one shared by non-LDS troops who don’t insist on some decorum. If we have a boy who cannot afford or inherit a shirt we find one for them. When President Monson shows up to a Jamboree he has a full uniform on. Lack of uniforms is not LDS policy.

As far as not wearing them during Sacrament meeting – that is understandable because the Church as a whole has been moving towards keeping Sacrament meeting focused on the basics. (No more Missionary farewells, special programs, etc.) because of the sacred nature of that meeting. I didn’t have an issue with it – but it could be a distraction if too many special Sunday’s are used to accommodate the multiple auxiliaries and activities of the Church.

As far as Stake level activities the Stake YM/YW leaders in our area are very involved with the counsel. We even run a Stake Young Womens Venture Crew so that the YW who want to be involved can do the High Adventure Scouting as a supplement to their regular YW activities without having to create co-ed Scout groups. They can do activities together when supervised but retain their own identity and have same-gender time and activities (also very healthy for other reasons).

I could go on… (and already have) but the bottom line is a full, rich, counsel approved and supported Scout experience is quite possible at the Ward level. It does require some creative implementation, respect for the demands of the Priesthood duties, some tough choices and most of all… high expectations for the Boys as leaders and very dedicated, TRAINED and willing Adult leadership. Lots of fundraisers and “doing it just like the other guys” is not required.

I hope that comes across as helpful and not condescending. I really do wish the best Scout experiences upon you!!

[KevinG]

Dang Nehor, for as much as I disagree with your post, I enjoyed reading it far more than I should have.

But now that my daughter and wife are in the Young Women's program, I can understand the disparity between the YM and YW programs, so I'm with you there.

We had the campingest, outdoorsiest, badarse set of YW I've ever seen when we lived in South Carolina. Meanwhile the Scouts were on life support. While not usually the case the disparity can go the other way- and is not the fault of the program but the failure to implement it well.

[KevinG]

I have (very strong-willed) daughters. They were regularly commenting on how the YM had more fun... Despite constant encouragement from me to be a strong leader in a YW class presidency and stand up for what they want, I only had one (so far) put her foot down in a MIA Maid presidency and say "We are doing an overnight, daddy-daughter dutch oven/canoe event!" The YW Pres and the Bishop at first gave her a hard time, but eventually relented - and they and we had a blast. She and they just needed to break the mold...

...ahhh yes. The other 11y/o Scout leader and I owe our 11 year old daughters a campout. They insist! Now I need to deliver on the promise. :-)

[CV75]

for the record the word is "assess"!

What a bum!

[KevinG]

What a bum!

How can end with wise crack like that?

[CV75]

You introduced the temporal/spiritual dichotomy. I didn't see the relavance when there seems to be such a huge "temporal" imbalance.

It is relevant in the relationship where the Church comes first and Scouting second. If Scouting (especially for Scouting's sake) becomes unweildy--money-wise or attitude-wise, it will have to go and Zion will move on in other ways to support and benefit from its aaronic priesthood quorums.

[CV75]

How can end with wise crack like that?

Now that stinks! See what scouting does to grown men!

[KevinG]

...grown men!

Grown?! Bad assumption. I may be older but that is purely a function of mortality and time/space.

[ERayR]

The main reason Scouting should be THE program is because it's an oportunity for the young men to see mature preisthood holders doing real life activities and hobbies or encouraging the same.

And in MNSHO a scouting program is not needed for that.

[ERayR]

It has gotten to the point that the scouting program IMNSHO consumes too many resources. First the FOS assessment, then the fees for scout camp, and Chartering, etc, etc. On top of that the revelation of what I consider excessive salaries for scout officials. I wonder (given that many boys are not into scouting) if scouting hasn't outlived its usefullness. I believe that the church could field as program using church ownd facilities using much less resources.

[KevinG]

It has gotten to the point that the scouting program IMNSHO consumes too many resources. First the FOS assessment, then the fees for scout camp, and Chartering, etc, etc. On top of that the revelation of what I consider excessive salaries for scout officials. I wonder (given that many boys are not into scouting) if scouting hasn't outlived its usefullness. I believe that the church could field as program using church ownd facilities using much less resources.

Citing the top few Scout Executives salaries is not evidence that Professional Scouters are overpaid. That is a trick used to slam Government Salaries and I know of no Scouts or State Government officials who made more than their counterparts in private industry.

Outside of that debate I would be very hard pressed to see the Church fund camps, programs, resources, publications, uniforms, training and other infrastructure required to teach young men the variety of skills and career explorations they can get through Scouting. I've got YW and YM in my home and even in the best wards the Church cannot provide all of what the Scouts in combination w the priesthood can do.

The conclusion I draw from the opinions on this thread is that some Wards don't put enough into the Scouting programs and some emphasise them too much.

[katherine the great]

Citing the top few Scout Executives salaries is not evidence that Professional Scouters are overpaid. That is a trick used to slam Government Salaries and I know of no Scouts or State Government officials who made more than their counterparts in private industry.

Outside of that debate I would be very hard pressed to see the Church fund camps, programs, resources, publications, uniforms, training and other infrastructure required to teach young men the variety of skills and career explorations they can get through Scouting. I've got YW and YM in my home and even in the best wards the Church cannot provide all of what the Scouts in combination w the priesthood can do.

The conclusion I draw from the opinions on this thread is that some Wards don't put enough into the Scouting programs and some emphasise them too much.

Amen Daddy. I have three sons and I can't put a price on all of the skills they learned through the scouting program, and I'm not exactly the consummate scout mom (although I have been Den mother a couple of times.) I've been angry when boys have come come sick from ice sheltering or almost met with certain death (for lack of diligent supervision), but overall, I think the pros far, far outweigh the cons in scouting.

[Duncan]

My bro-in-law who doesn't really like teens has been in YM since he and my sister got married in 2005. One camp he got dragged out to was a 3 hour trip away and when they got there one of the other leaders made the statement that he forgot to bring food for the 3 day trip. So, my bro in law had to go back and get it and then after all that on the way home after the 3 day trip one of tarps blew off and thus scattering all the contents all over the highway and area so they had to go hunting around for all the stuff! I still laugh all this time later! hahaha!

[Senator]

Outside of that debate I would be very hard pressed to see the Church fund camps, programs, resources, publications, uniforms, training and other infrastructure required to teach young men the variety of skills and career explorations they can get through Scouting.

Are your kidding? Have you seen the church's missionary program? And you think they couldn't do a comparable scout program?

I beg to differ. I believe it could do a bang up job.

[silvermoon383]

Are your kidding? Have you seen the church's missionary program? And you think they couldn't do a comparable scout program?

I beg to differ. I believe it could do a bang up job.

I dunno, there was a stake freezeout I went to as a priest where they had everyone hike between different activity stations throughout the day. No one could find the stations though, all of the directions were off by several degrees. Turns out that the courses had been plotted using a GPS unit, which doesn't adjust for magnetic north. Since everyone's compass was set to magnetic north (like every good scout does) everything was off.

And that's just 1 example of where things can go wrong. Running its own scouting program takes a level of effort that would essentially require a GA position and a COB department. Leaving it up to the stakes like it does now would most likely end in disaster if the Church dropped the BSA.

Edited January 17, 2012 by silvermoon383

[Senator]

And that's just 1 example of where things can go wrong. Running its own scouting program takes a level of effort that would essentially require a GA position and a COB department. Leaving it up to the stakes like it does now would most likely end in disaster if the Church dropped the BSA.

Do you think we would get a better missionary program if the church outsourced its missionary department?