Evangelical Prof Poses 10 Questions For Mitt Romney

[smac97]

Start here:

Although he carries the name of the seventh president of the United States, Jackson's purpose is not political, but to present Americans with a concise and thorough introduction to what Latter-day Saints (LDS) officially teach and practice today.While the author admits that he'll vote for Romney if he wins the Republican nomination, he explains: "As an Evangelical Christian, I am bothered, and even suspicious, that Mitt Romney refuses to openly and honestly explain his Mormon faith to the public and how it would or would not shape his presidency."He adds, "When people ask Romney honest questions about his Mormon faith, and he tells them to go read the official websites of the LDS Church ... I wonder, 'Does the Mormon Church speak for you? Do you believe everything the official LDS websites say, or do you think for yourself on some issues of your personal faith?'"

Read author Andrew Jackson's 10 key questions reporters should ask Mitt Romney about his Mormon faith at:

http://bit.ly/10QuestionsForMittRomney

Here are the 10 questions, with how I would respond if I they were presented to me as a political candidate. How would you respond?

1. When people ask you honest questions about your Mormon faith, you tell them to go read the official websites of the LDS Church. Do you believe everything the LDS officially teaches?

I am an observant member of the LDS Church, and I believe in the well-established and scriptural doctrines of the LDS Church. I also believe that these doctrines operate to make Latter-day Saints, as a people, decent, hard-working and kind to others inside and outside of their faith.

2. When asked whether Mormonism is Christian, BYU professor Dr. Stephen Robinson in his book How Wide the Divide? writes, “Latter-day Saints do not seek to be accepted as historically orthodox Christians or as Evangelicals. We are neither.” Do you agree with Dr. Robinson?

As a matter of basic history, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is of recent vintage and arose outside of the Evangelical movement, and therefore is not properly characterized as either "historically orthodox" or as "Evangelical." We are, however, most emphatically believers in Jesus of Nazareth.

3. The official teaching of the LDS Church is that the Mormon Church is “the one and only true church on earth.” Do you also believe that all non-denominational and denominational churches are not true churches?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints advances truth claims which, at some point, become exclusivistic. The same can be said of Roman Catholicism, Methodism, Presbyterianism and most other Christian groups and other religions as well.

However, the first President of the LDS Church, Joseph Smith, readily acknowledged that the LDS Church does not have a monopoly on truth, and that members of the LDS Church can and should learn from people not of their faith. He stated:

The inquiry is frequently made of me, "Wherein do you differ from others in your religious views?" In reality and essence we do not differ so far in our religious views, but that we could all drink into one principle of love. One of the grand fundamental principles of 'Mormonism" is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may. (History of the Church 5:499)

Joseph Smith also taught the importance of reaching out to defend the rights of those not of our faith:

If it has been demonstrated that I have been willing to die for a Mormon, I am bold to declare before Heaven that I am just as ready to die in defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination; for the same principle which would trample upon the rights of the Latter-day Saints would trample upon the rights of the Roman Catholic or of any other denomination who may be unpopular and too weak to defend themselves." (Documentary History of the Church Vol.5, p. 498.)

These sentiments have been recently emphasized by former President Gordon B. Hinckley, who stated:

"We can respect other religions, and must do so. We must recognize the great good they accomplish. We must teach our children to be tolerant and friendly toward those not of our faith. We can and do work with those of other religions in the defense of those values which have made our civilization great and our society distinctive."

4. The LDS Church believes that all humans were living as spirit people on another planet before they were born in a body on earth. Do you believe you lived before you were born on earth?

I believe our spirits existed prior to being born on earth. The premortal existence of souls is referenced throughout LDS scripture, including the Bible. In Jeremiah 1:5 we read, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Paul says in Ephesians 1:4 that "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love."

I recognize that other Christians may have differing views on this point. We are therefore fortunate to live in a country where religious liberty is protected. In fact, religious liberty is an important tenet of the LDS Church. Its Eleventh Article of Faith states:

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

5. The LDS Church believes that all humans were the spirit children of God the Father, and his wife, in a pre-mortal life. Is this what you meant when in your Faith in America speech you said, “We believe that every single human being is a child of God”?

Yes. The Bible states that "we are the offspring of God" (Acts 17:29). As to the concept of God, our Heavenly Father, having a wife, a "Heavenly Mother," many Latter-day Saints, including myself, accept it. In 1995, the LDS Church published "The Family: A Proclamation to the World," which included the following:

All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

An LDS hymn, "O, My Father," includes the following language:

In the heavens are parents single?

No, the thought makes reason stare.

Truth is reason: truth eternal

tells me I've a mother there.

When I leave this frail existence,

When I lay this mortal by,

Father, Mother, may I meet you

in your royal courts on high?

While Latter-day Saints believe in the existence of Heavenly Mother, we do not pray to Her, nor do we have much information about Her in scripture.

6. The LDS Church teaches that humans as worthy Mormons can become gods after they die. Do you believe you are a worthy Mormon that will become a god one day?

Latter-day Saints believe that, through the grace of Jesus Christ, we can obey His commandment to "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48). The Bible further states, in Romans 8, that "[t]he Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God," and that "if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ."

This concept, which Latter-day Saints call "exaltation" but which has also been called "divinization" or "theosis," has a long Christian pedigree. In addition to the foregoing scriptures, the Bible specifically describes sincere followers of Jesus Christ as becoming "partakers of the Divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). Many of the Church Fathers, including Irenaeus, Clement, and Athanasius, wrote extensively on this topic.

C.S. Lewis aptly described this concept in his book, Mere Christianity (p. 160):

The command Be ye perfect [Matt. 5:48] is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were "gods" and he is going to make good His words. If we let Him - for we can prevent Him, if we choose - He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, a dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what he said.

7. Not all Mormons can go into a LDS temple because they are not found worthy. Are you a temple Mormon? Do you practice the sacred rituals inside Mormon temples?

"Temple Mormon" is a phrase foreign to the Latter-day Saints. All members of the LDS Church have access to the temple if they prepare themselves for it. And yes, I attend the temple as often as I can. It is a wonderful experience.

8. Do you believe people can convert to Mormonism after they die?

Yes, but only if they choose to do so. Just as we believe that our souls existed prior to our birth, we also believe that our soulds will continue to exist after our death. The ability to grow and learn and make choices will continue after we die. This is why Jesus Christ, after his crucifixion and death, "went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (1 Peter 3:19), and why "the gospel [was] preached also to them that are dead" (1 Peter 4:6).

9. We know that Mormons are baptized for the dead in a LDS temple. Have you ever been baptized for your dead ancestors? Have you ever baptized others for the dead?

Yes and yes. Baptism for the dead, the religious practice of baptizing a living person on behalf of one who is dead, with the living person acting as the deceased person's proxy, is specifically referenced in the Bible (1 Corinthians 15:29) and more extensively in other LDS scriptures. While most modern Christians do not adhere to this practice, numerous scholars have acknowledged its practice in the early days of Christianity. However, whether the baptism is accepted by the person on whose behalf it is performed is entirely up to that person.

10. The Mormon Church believes that the Bible has errors in it. If you become the next president of the United States, are you going to request to be sworn in with the Book of Mormon instead of the Bible?

Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr., a former president of the LDS Church, addressed this issue well:

We are all aware that there are errors in the Bible due to faulty translations and ignorance on the part of the translators, but the hand of the Lord has been over this volume of Scripture nevertheless, and it is remarkable that it has come down to us in the excellent condition in which we find it. (Doctrines of Salvation, 3:191)

Latter-day Saints are aware of, but certainly do not dwell on or emphasize, man-made errors in the Bible. We read from and study the Bible regularly, and we try to apply its precepts in our daily lives.

And no, I would not request to be sworn in with The Book of Mormon. I would take the oath using the Bible.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 4, 2012 by smac97

[LeSellers]

By and large, I'd agree with all of your statement/responses. The alternatives I'd offer are trivially different, so merit little note.

I'd emphasize that there are many Christians who share our beliefs and reject (or temper) the hostile tone and form of the questions themselves.

Lehi

[Kevin Christensen]

For number 3, I'd point out that there is a difference between the official claim of the LDS church as stated in D&C 1:30 and the version placed in quotations marks, which, for record, does not have a scriptural source. To arrive at what the questioner places in quotes, one must delete 29 words and then add two, just in the key verse. The difference, I find, makes all the difference.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[zerinus]

Start here:

Although he carries the name of the seventh president of the United States, Jackson's purpose is not political, but to present Americans with a concise and thorough introduction to what Latter-day Saints (LDS) officially teach and practice today.While the author admits that he'll vote for Romney if he wins the Republican nomination, he explains: "As an Evangelical Christian, I am bothered, and even suspicious, that Mitt Romney refuses to openly and honestly explain his Mormon faith to the public and how it would or would not shape his presidency."He adds, "When people ask Romney honest questions about his Mormon faith, and he tells them to go read the official websites of the LDS Church ... I wonder, 'Does the Mormon Church speak for you? Do you believe everything the official LDS websites say, or do you think for yourself on some issues of your personal faith?'"

Read author Andrew Jackson's 10 key questions reporters should ask Mitt Romney about his Mormon faith at:

http://bit.ly/10QuestionsForMittRomney

Here are the 10 questions, with how I would respond if I they were presented to me as a political candidate. How would you respond?

1. When people ask you honest questions about your Mormon faith, you tell them to go read the official websites of the LDS Church. Do you believe everything the LDS officially teaches?

* * *

<snip>

If I were Mitt Romney, and a reporter asked me those ten questions, I would answer the first question as follows:

Q. When people ask you honest questions about your Mormon faith, you tell them to go read the official websites of the LDS Church. Do you believe everything the LDS officially teaches?

A. "I would be happy to answer your questions in a religious role, but not in a political role. Since my role as a candidate for the Presidency of the United States is purely political (and the constitution forbids the mixing of politics with religion), I cannot answer any of your religious questions."

Edited January 4, 2012 by zerinus

[CV75]

Here are the 10 questions, with how I would respond if I they were presented to me as a political candidate. How would you respond?

1. Enough to refer to the website.

2. Yes. We are Christian.

3. I would quote D&C 1:30, emphasizing “collectively” and that all churches have some truth and individuals with whom the Lord is well pleased.

4. While we are spirit children of God and lived with Him in a pre-mortal existence, I don’t think you would find talk of another planet on the LDS website, and I never thought of it that way myself.

5. Yes.

6. Yes, in that the children of God can become like Him and even one with God, according to the Lord’s Intercessory Prayer. I hope and believe the Lord is pleased with my progress thus far but I am not inclined to obligate Him on making a decision right now, unlike what I am trying to do in getting your vote.

7. Those who attend the temple voluntarily qualify or disqualify themselves through an interview with their Bishop. Yes, I attend the temple.

8. Yes, the option is open if they desire to follow through. I believe the children of God can continue to progress and change our minds, as you have seen me do since my days in Massachusetts (all for the better, of course!).

9. Yes. It is a proxy ordinance that provides the option I mentioned in #8.

10. The so-called errors do not affect my sacred duty to abide by the standards of truth I believe the Bible contains, or the sacredness of he book in connection with promising to perform the duties of the office of President. I would be honored to take the oath and look forward to so doing.

This is why I’m not in politics!

[bu11fr0g]

I wouldnt answer a question of this type at all. Nothing to gain. Questions are with ill intent.

[Sky]

I think you did a fine job of answering these questions, and I would probably answer them basically the same way. But the questions themselves make me uncomfortable because they seem an awful lot like a religious or theological test for office. And they are asked by somebody who more than likely views Mormonism with a deep suspicion. The kind of questions he should be asking is what Romney will do to turn the economy around and put people back to work.

I’m bracing myself for more of this to come in 2012.

[juliann]

I can only imagine the howling if an analogous set of questions was asked of the evangelical candidates. I've notice the odd label "temple Mormon" in other contexts. Must be the new talking point. We could ask them if they participate in altar calls and if they were worthy enough to have angels and Jesus join in with them.

[Freedom]

You have provided excellent answers to the questions.

I can only imagine the howling if an analogous set of questions was asked of the evangelical candidates. I've notice the odd label "temple Mormon" in other contexts. Must be the new talking point. We could ask them if they participate in altar calls and if they were worthy enough to have angels and Jesus join in with them.

I agree that if Romney where to answer the questions, he would to a great disservice to those who seek the freedom of religion that our countries support.

[BCSpace]

I agree with a poster above in that the questions are of ill intent and as a candidate, I would generally not answer them other than to, as has been said before, refer to the LDS website. If I still felt I needed to answer and could do it in a venue were it wouldn't evolve into a debate, such as answering a letter, I might answer on this wise:

1. When people ask you honest questions about your Mormon faith, you tell them to go read the official websites of the LDS Church. Do you believe everything the LDS officially teaches?

I believe about as much of what my church teaches as most others believe what their church teaches.

2. When asked whether Mormonism is Christian, BYU professor Dr. Stephen Robinson in his book How Wide the Divide? writes, “Latter-day Saints do not seek to be accepted as historically orthodox Christians or as Evangelicals. We are neither.” Do you agree with Dr. Robinson?

No.

3. The official teaching of the LDS Church is that the Mormon Church is “the one and only true church on earth.” Do you also believe that all non-denominational and denominational churches are not true churches?

I believe that teachings from the Bible can ultimately lead one to salvation if heeded.

4. The LDS Church believes that all humans were living as spirit people on another planet before they were born in a body on earth. Do you believe you lived before you were born on earth?

I believe my spirit/soul existed before I was born.

5. The LDS Church believes that all humans were the spirit children of God the Father, and his wife, in a pre-mortal life. Is this what you meant when in your Faith in America speech you said, “We believe that every single human being is a child of God”?

I believe Acts 17:28-29.

6. The LDS Church teaches that humans as worthy Mormons can become gods after they die. Do you believe you are a worthy Mormon that will become a god one day?

I believe Revelation 3:21.

7. Not all Mormons can go into a LDS temple because they are not found worthy. Are you a temple Mormon? Do you practice the sacred rituals inside Mormon temples?

The rites are esoteric, therefore we don't discuss them with everyone.

8. Do you believe people can convert to Mormonism after they die?

I believe 1 Peter 3:19-21 and 1 Peter 4:6

9. We know that Mormons are baptized for the dead in a LDS temple. Have you ever been baptized for your dead ancestors? Have you ever baptized others for the dead?

See 7 above.

10. The Mormon Church believes that the Bible has errors in it. If you become the next president of the United States, are you going to request to be sworn in with the Book of Mormon instead of the Bible?

A member of the LDS Church will believe any Bible verse any other Christian believes. Since the Bible is the word of God, I would have no problem taking the oath of office with my hand on it. I do note that the Bible teaches us to "swear not at all", Matthew 5:14........

Not part of my response, but just to irk some people, I might take the oath on a quad or nothing at all.

[BCSpace]

But the questions themselves make me uncomfortable because they seem an awful lot like a religious or theological test for office.

There is nothing wrong with such tests as long as they are not part of civil regulations and law. A person's religion or lack thereof shapes a person's values and is therefore a valid concern of any voter. The key is to be properly and well informed about the religion in question. Of course a candidate is equally within his rights to refuse to take the test.

Edited January 4, 2012 by BCSpace

[Freedom]

Here are some suggested questions we can forward to the professor to ask of the evangelical candidates:

You claim you believe in the bible as the word of God, do you believe everything in the bible such as the endorsement of slavery and the subordination of women?

Many evangelical websites state that the Catholic church is false because of its many rituals and belief in good works. Do you believe this?

Do you reject the scientific discoveries concerning the origins of man and the age of the earth?

As a Christian, do you believe that Muslims and Hindus are following a false God? If so, are going to take measures to curtail these religions?

Many Christians teach that only those who accept Jesus in this life will go to heaven. Do you believe this?

Do you believe that people can convert to Christianity after they die?

The bible never claims that it is a standard for all truth, and there are many American citizens who do not believe in the bible. Will you still put your hand on it when sworn in as president?

[Jaybear]

Interesting that most of you seem to have an aversion to answering yes or no questions about your personal beliefs.

I presume that comes from your desire that mormons be allowed to fit in?

My answers would be:

1. No.

2. Yes.

3. Yes.

4. No.

5. NA

6. no.

7. No. No.

8. No.

9. no.

10. no.

[Jaybear]

Here are some suggested questions we can forward to the professor to ask of the evangelical candidates:

You claim you believe in the bible as the word of God, do you believe everything in the bible such as the endorsement of slavery and the subordination of women?

Many evangelical websites state that the Catholic church is false because of its many rituals and belief in good works. Do you believe this?

Do you reject the scientific discoveries concerning the origins of man and the age of the earth?

As a Christian, do you believe that Muslims and Hindus are following a false God? If so, are going to take measures to curtail these religions?

Many Christians teach that only those who accept Jesus in this life will go to heaven. Do you believe this?

Do you believe that people can convert to Christianity after they die?

The bible never claims that it is a standard for all truth, and there are many American citizens who do not believe in the bible. Will you still put your hand on it when sworn in as president?

Great questions, for the most part. I am guessing that most evangelicals would give you a straight answer, without the dodge that most of you demonstrate.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Jaybear

[Sky]

There is nothing wrong with such tests as long as they are not part of civil regulations and law. A person's religion or lack thereof shapes a person's values and is therefore a valid concern of any voter. The key is to be properly and well informed about the religion in question. Of course a candidate is equally within his rights to refuse to take the test.

Maybe I'm just a bit synical, but I don't have very high hopes that evangelicals will be properly or well informed enough about the Mormon faith. Most of them will probably just accept whatever their pastors tell them about Mormonism. If I were Romney, I would write maybe one or two paragraphs about what I believe and then leave it at that (sort of like the "I'm a Mormon" profiles). Having to go beyond that is too much. At some point, people really do need to realize that Romney is not a spokeperson for the LDS Church and that he is running for president, not pastor. For doctrinal questions, LDS.org and Mormon.org really are the best places to go.

[Sky]

Interesting that most of you seem to have an aversion to answering yes or no questions about your personal beliefs.

I presume that comes from your desire that mormons be allowed to fit in?

My answers would be:

1. No.

2. Yes.

3. Yes.

4. No.

5. NA

6. no.

7. No. No.

8. No.

9. no.

10. no.

I think answering these questions requires more explanation than a simple yes/no answer - and smac97 did a great job of answering them. My aversion stems from the fact that this is a religious test for Romney. I guess Mormons are good enough to fight in our wars and pay taxes and be productive members of society, yet they are too weird to let one of them ever be the president??

[Freedom]

Great questions, for the most part. I am guessing that most evangelicals would give you a straight answer, without the dodge that most of you demonstrate.

Perhaps, but would an evangelical presidential candidate answer them? Not only would they not answer them, but they are not being asked. It is time so-called orthodox Christianity be questioned; I see many atheists wanting a non-religions person in office because of all the so-called bazaar beliefs they espouse.

[Vance]

Several of the questions have wording that really isn't accurate. For example

4. The LDS Church believes that all humans were living as spirit people on another planet children before they were born in a body on earth. Do you believe you lived before you were born on earth?

5. The LDS Church believes that all humans were the spirit children of God the Father, and his wife, in a pre-mortal life. Is this what you meant when in your Faith in America speech you said, “We believe that every single human being is a child of God”?

10. The Mormon Church believes that the Bible has errors in it to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. If you become the next president of the United States, are you going to request to be sworn in with the Book of Mormon instead of the Bible?

Most of the questions are stupid, in a political context.

[juliann]

Great questions, for the most part. I am guessing that most evangelicals would give you a straight answer, without the dodge that most of you demonstrate.

Don't get around much, eh? No one is going to answer "straight" when the questions are crooked. Which is why it would be so much fun to ask the Mormon baiters questions about dominionism, a term that they don't use but is used to describe their Christian takeover (see how easy that is?) worldview. And boy, could we have some fun with the tribulation. But first they would have to answer all kinds of stuff about all the knowledge they need being in a book thousands of years old in multiple translations and versions..... with no mistakes.

Edited January 4, 2012 by juliann

[Jaybear]

Don't get around much, eh? No one is going to answer "straight" when the questions are crooked. Which is why it would be so much fun to ask the Mormon baiters questions about dominionism, a term that they don't use but is used to describe their Christian takeover (see how easy that is?) worldview. And boy, could we have some fun with the tribulation. But first they would have to answer all kinds of stuff about all the knowledge they need being in a book thousands of years old in multiple translations and versions..... with no mistakes.

I get around enough. I said for the most part. If one doesn't agree with the premise of the question then they can't answer it. I doubt for example that any EV politician would agree that the bible supports slavery or the subordination of women.

I don't recall Perry or Bachman or Huckabee ever being coy or evasive about their personal religious beliefs.

If you have an examples to the contrary, by all means, share them.

[bluebell]

Interesting that most of you seem to have an aversion to answering yes or no questions about your personal beliefs.

I presume that comes from your desire that mormons be allowed to fit in?

My answers would be:

1. No.

2. Yes.

3. Yes.

4. No.

5. NA

6. no.

7. No. No.

8. No.

9. no.

10. no.

I would be surprised if the person who asked the question desired a yes or no answer.

Yes and no answers are usually poor at allowing for a true understanding of another's beliefs simply because the person asking the questions probably doesn't understand the other belief system well enough to ask them in a way where yes or no answers would provide the most accurate outline of the person's true beliefs.

I mean, honestly, if you truly desired to understand someone else's beliefs, would you rather get answers like your's or answers like Smac's?

[bluebell]

I get around enough. I said for the most part. If one doesn't agree with the premise of the question then they can't answer it. I doubt for example that any EV politician would agree that the bible supports slavery or the subordination of women.

I don't recall Perry or Bachman or Huckabee ever being coy or evasive about their personal religious beliefs.

If you have an examples to the contrary, by all means, share them.

They don't have to be. The people asking them the questions are already members of their 'church' for the most part. They WANT people to use their religious beliefs as a test to determine their worthiness. They put their beliefs out there specificially because they believe it will help them get elected.

[BCSpace]

Maybe I'm just a bit synical, but I don't have very high hopes that evangelicals will be properly or well informed enough about the Mormon faith. Most of them will probably just accept whatever their pastors tell them about Mormonism. If I were Romney, I would write maybe one or two paragraphs about what I believe and then leave it at that (sort of like the "I'm a Mormon" profiles). Having to go beyond that is too much. At some point, people really do need to realize that Romney is not a spokeperson for the LDS Church and that he is running for president, not pastor. For doctrinal questions, LDS.org and Mormon.org really are the best places to go.

Sure. But they have every reason to mistrust us as our official doctrine is indeed that we are the only true Church and they are part of apostate Christianity. Nature of the game.

[juliann]

I get around enough. I said for the most part. If one doesn't agree with the premise of the question then they can't answer it. I doubt for example that any EV politician would agree that the bible supports slavery or the subordination of women.

I don't recall Perry or Bachman or Huckabee ever being coy or evasive about their personal religious beliefs.

If you have an examples to the contrary, by all means, share them.

Oh for heaven's sake. Have you ever heard an evangelical politician asked? I'd be interested in your examples of them openly talking about their stranger beliefs if you can even find them being questioned in a mainstream public forum. The closest was Bachman's slip up about the biblical necessity of obeying her husband and she did not give a straight answer. She also had the benefit of the questioner being booed.

[juliann]

Sure. But they have every reason to mistrust us as our official doctrine is indeed that we are the only true Church and they are part of apostate Christianity. Nature of the game.

Wow. Then nobody can trust anybody if believing that your religion is the right one is the criteria. Not to mention their beliefs are even more restrictive than ours.