Nomad Posted December 31, 2011 Posted December 31, 2011 Critics of Book of Mormon apologetics often ridicule the fact that, if the Isthmus of Tehuantepec is considered the "narrow neck of land" then Book of Mormon authors didn't have any sense of direction, since north would have to be northwest in order for the directions in the book to make any sense. That's exactly what many Mormon apologists have argued. Critics claim this is a ridiculous argument.And yet an interesting aspect of Montreal, Quebec is that locals refer to the cardinal directions in an identical manner. "North" is not north, but northwest, and all the other directions on the compass are accordingly skewed.Geography of Montreal One quirk of common Montreal parlance is that directions (north, south, east, and west) along the street grid are sharply skewed relative to the actual compass directions. The St. Lawrence River is taken as flowing west to east (even though it flows north or northeast past the island), so that directions along streets parallel to the river are referred to as "west" and "east," and those along streets perpendicular to the river, "north" and "south." In much of Montreal, "north" is actually northwest, and in some areas such as Verdun and Pointe-aux-Trembles it is actually due west. "Montreal directions" are used in naming street addresses and describing bus routes, among other things. As a result of this discrepancy, Montreal has been called "the only city where the sun sets in the north."
Bill Hamblin Posted December 31, 2011 Posted December 31, 2011 Directions in the BOM are not absolute planetary and continental. As with all ancient direction systems, they are based on the center point of the temple. N/S/E/W are directions measured from the temple as sacred center. (The old saying "All roads lead to Rome" reflects precisely this ancient mentality.) When you understand this, BOM directions make perfect sense. 1
poulsenll Posted December 31, 2011 Posted December 31, 2011 Directions in the BOM are not absolute planetary and continental. As with all ancient direction systems, they are based on the center point of the temple. N/S/E/W are directions measured from the temple as sacred center. (The old saying "All roads lead to Rome" reflects precisely this ancient mentality.) When you understand this, BOM directions make perfect sense.BillAnother way of stating this is that all directions are based on me and my perception rather than a fixed geocentric model of the world. Ancient cultures based directions on the movement of the sun and local elevation relative to their immediate location. This was especially true of Mesoamerican cultures as pointed out in a recent paper by Hopkins and Josserand."Directions and Partitions in Maya World View," in aFestschrift for Terrence Kaufman, edited by Thomas Smith Stark andRoberto Zavala. New York: John Benjamins. (J. K. Josserand and N.A. Hopkins). 22 pp. manuscript, 5 figures. Larry P 1
mfbukowski Posted December 31, 2011 Posted December 31, 2011 (edited) Sounds like the converse of the LA Freeway system.Seriously!Highway 101 generally runs North and South, and historically it was much of what has become Interstate 5 which runs between San Diego and I think as far as the Canadian border well north of Seattle.But if you are in the San Fernando Valley, where the coastline faces South and you want to go to a local destination you know is farther west than you are, you must get on the Ventura Freeway, or highway 101, "North".It is very confusing.The only problem is, that the Ventura Freeway, or Highway 101 "North", a heavily used commuter road, is a slow commute because traffic often runs directly into the sun, since commuters from the San Fernando Valley, traveling "south" into downtown in the mornings are actually traveling roughly east, into the sun, and at night for the return home, also run into the sun going "north" which is actually west.And we wonder why tourists get confused. Of course you take the freeway North to get west. Everybody knows that! Dang tourists! Edited December 31, 2011 by mfbukowski
Freedom Posted December 31, 2011 Posted December 31, 2011 I read a paper concerning central american religions by a non-lds scholar published in Archaeology Today that suggests the gods resided beneath the earth and traveled up over their domain to view them day by day. The suggestion was that the sun was seen as their god, rising from the south and traveling north over the land and heading back down in the north. That is, their south is our east. It was speculation but does fit well with the mesoamerican setting. Of course, since I cannot remember the source I cannot provide the proof.
Bill Hamblin Posted December 31, 2011 Posted December 31, 2011 BillAnother way of stating this is that all directions are based on me and my perception rather than a fixed geocentric model of the world. Ancient cultures based directions on the movement of the sun and local elevation relative to their immediate location. This was especially true of Mesoamerican cultures as pointed out in a recent paper by Hopkins and Josserand."Directions and Partitions in Maya World View," in aFestschrift for Terrence Kaufman, edited by Thomas Smith Stark andRoberto Zavala. New York: John Benjamins. (J. K. Josserand and N.A. Hopkins). 22 pp. manuscript, 5 figures. Larry PExactly
bluebell Posted December 31, 2011 Posted December 31, 2011 That has got to be one of the dumbest critisms i have ever heard. I live in montana and when we refer to where alaska is, we ALWAYS say north, regardless of the fact that it's actually northwest. It's normal to talk in such a way. Have they never heard the song "North, to Alaska"
Bill Hamblin Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 That has got to be one of the dumbest critisms i have ever heard. I live in montana and when we refer to where alaska is, we ALWAYS say north, regardless of the fact that it's actually northwest. It's normal to talk in such a way. Have they never heard the song "North, to Alaska" If you look on a globe map of the Western Hemisphere, North America is just as much west of South America as it is north. One could just as easily call it West and East America as North and South.
mfbukowski Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 (edited) Los Angeles is farther east than Reno Nevada.Just an interesting factoid Edited January 1, 2012 by mfbukowski
ebeddoulos Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 My bride and I claim Star Valley as home. To get to her home I had to go "up-south". Also Virginia is farther west than West Virginia. I used to live in Arlington Texas, the home of the Texas Rangers baseball team.. Arlington's neighbor city to the west, Fort Worth, has borders that also extend farther south, east and north of Arlington.People who use directions as an argument against the Book of Mormon, probably get lost going to the restroom.
thesometimesaint Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 Add in that Reno; Nevada is further "west" than Los Angeles; California.
Freedom Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 I have had the opportunity to read translations of non-religious ancient documents and what I learned is that absolutes in our culture such as numbers, dates, locations, distances and so forth were not considered to be so sacred. Most documents were written to establish the authority of the elite and details that we consider indisputable were blatantly distorted to justify authority. Since they had no real way to measure things, measurements as we know them were meaningless. This is one reason why the jaradite barges were the length of a tree rather than 29.3 meters. Your authority would often be based on your genealogy, so genealogical records from 1000 bc for example are considered complete fabrications in most cases. Consequently, the writing styles that emerged were largely influenced by these standards. We do not need to look at them as intentional deceptions, I think a good comparison would be to put them against 21st century marketing material. 'Break out hit of the year', 'instant classic', 'most doctors recomend'. The not-so-gullible recognize these catch phrases as silly distortions but certainly not as institutional deceptions. 4,000 years from now, however, the amateur historians of the future will no doubt be debating the meaning of such documents, trying to justify how one document can call 'Coyboys and Aliens' a break out hit of the season while another document calls it the biggest financials blunder of the year.
Gervin Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 I have had the opportunity to read translations of non-religious ancient documents and what I learned is that absolutes in our culture such as numbers, dates, locations, distances and so forth were not considered to be so sacred. Most documents were written to establish the authority of the elite and details that we consider indisputable were blatantly distorted to justify authority. Since they had no real way to measure things, measurements as we know them were meaningless. Who is "they" you refer to?
Freedom Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 Who is "they" you refer to?People in ancient times. The metric system, stop watches, and other measuring systems we take for granted were not used three thousand years ago. Measurements of distance were by how may days rather than how many kilometers or miles. buildings were by the length of your arm rather than the length of a standardized stick. One lived to the age of a tree rather than 93 years. If I were to state that I have 346 books you would accept this as absolute. If an ancient king from 950 bc were to write the same number, no conclusion could be drawn as to how many books he actually had.
Gervin Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 People in ancient times. The ancient Hebrews seemed to do a pretty good job with measures of length (cubit, span, handbreadth, finger), measures of capacity (homer, cor, lethech, ephah, omer, tenth part, bath, hin, kab, log), and measures of weight (talent, mina, shekel, beka, gerah). I suspect that the history of other ancient peoples would show false your claim that ancient people "had no real way to measure things."
Bill Hamblin Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 The ancient Hebrews seemed to do a pretty good job with measures of length (cubit, span, handbreadth, finger), measures of capacity (homer, cor, lethech, ephah, omer, tenth part, bath, hin, kab, log), and measures of weight (talent, mina, shekel, beka, gerah). I suspect that the history of other ancient peoples would show false your claim that ancient people "had no real way to measure things."The problem is they were not standardized. These measures could be quite different in different times, places, circumstances and cultures.
blackstrap Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 As with directions,measurements are often contextual. Consider the statement," this box of coal weighs a ton " In past years,if I were buying the coal from the company store it would be 2000 pounds.If I were the coal miner weighing the coal to collect wages,it would be 2240 pounds. If I am selling the coal today to China, it probably weighs 2204.6 pounds . If I am carrying the box of coal to my stove today,it probably weighs less than 100 pounds.
Bernard Gui Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 What are the easternmost, the westernmost, the southernmost, and the northernmost statesin the United States?Bernard
Duncan Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 What are the easternmost, the westernmost, the southernmost, and the northernmost statesin the United States?BernardHawaii is the most western, Maine is the most eastern, Alaska is the most northern and the most southern is Florida
Tarski Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) Directions in the BOM are not absolute planetary and continental. As with all ancient direction systems, they are based on the center point of the temple. N/S/E/W are directions measured from the temple as sacred center. (The old saying "All roads lead to Rome" reflects precisely this ancient mentality.) When you understand this, BOM directions make perfect sense.The idea of things being measured with respect to a sacred marker such as a temple makes sense but the way you phrased this has me a bit puzzled.The geometry of a plane includes the possibility of choosing both a center and then, separately and independently, the directions. For example in my city streets run north/south and east/west as is common but these directions are not changed if we decide to move what we consider to be the center of town. The center point is irrelevant.In math talk, a Euclidean plane is a metric affine space. One can choose the origin and we can choose an orthonormal basis of directions independently. For the latter we just choose an orthonormal basis for the vector space on which the affine plane is modeled. This sounds pedantic but it isn't really even stated quite correctly yet. In anycase, choosing a center does not determine a pair of mutually orthogonal directions. Something more is needed.So, if the temple serves to give a zero point (a center or origin) then it does not follow that we have thereby determined an orthogonal set of directions playing the role of north/south and east/west.So it cannot be simply the location of the temple simpliciter that makes for directional norms (other than "away from" and "toward" the temple).Perhaps the geometry or the orientation of the temple does this? In particular, if the temple were really circularly symmetric it could not serve for this purpose. If it were a rectangle then it clearly would suggest directionality.How does it work again? How does the location of temple determine "north" for example?Similar but somewhat more subtle things can be said if we think about a sphere such as the earth. In the latter case, one optional but almost irresistable option is to pay attention to axis of rotation of the earth. Or, failing that, the lines of motion of the fixed stars across the sky.. Edited January 2, 2012 by Tarski 1
Xioneye Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Directions in the BOM are not absolute planetary and continental. As with all ancient direction systems, they are based on the center point of the temple. N/S/E/W are directions measured from the temple as sacred center. (The old saying "All roads lead to Rome" reflects precisely this ancient mentality.) When you understand this, BOM directions make perfect sense.Ooh. you don't say? Please expand or have me banned.
thesometimesaint Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Duncan:Hawaii is also the most southern state, and Alaska is the most western.
Duncan Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Duncan:Hawaii is also the most southern state, and Alaska is the most western. well do I get points for being Canadian and getting 2/4?!
Bill Hamblin Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 The idea of things being measured with respect to a sacred marker such as a temple makes sense but the way you phrased this has me a bit puzzled.The geometry of a plane includes the possibility of choosing both a center and then, separately and independently, the directions. For example in my city streets run north/south and east/west as is common but these directions are not changed if we decide to move what we consider to be the center of town. The center point is irrelevant.In math talk, a Euclidean plane is a metric affine space. One can choose the origin and we can choose an orthonormal basis of directions independently. For the latter we just choose an orthonormal basis for the vector space on which the affine plane is modeled. This sounds pedantic but it isn't really even stated quite correctly yet. In anycase, choosing a center does not determine a pair of mutually orthogonal directions. Something more is needed.So, if the temple serves to give a zero point (a center or origin) then it does not follow that we have thereby determined an orthogonal set of directions playing the role of north/south and east/west.So it cannot be simply the location of the temple simpliciter that makes for directional norms (other than "away from" and "toward" the temple).Perhaps the geometry or the orientation of the temple does this? In particular, if the temple were really circularly symmetric it could not serve for this purpose. If it were a rectangle then it clearly would suggest directionality.How does it work again? How does the location of temple determine "north" for example?Similar but somewhat more subtle things can be said if we think about a sphere such as the earth. In the latter case, one optional but almost irresistable option is to pay attention to axis of rotation of the earth. Or, failing that, the lines of motion of the fixed stars across the sky.. You're thinking like a 21st century mathematician rather than an ancient priest. Priests measured time and space from observations at temples. They measured space by facing the rising sun to the east, and marking the four directions from this "orientation" (literally, facing east) based instinctive human directions, front, back, right, left (and up and down). From that stance, left is north, and in fact, in ancient Hebrew, "left/shem'ol" often means north. Whenever the Bible talks about north, it consistently means north of Jerusalem, not north in an absolute global sense. BOM geography follows this ancient practice. Most ancient cultures measured space and time from their sacred center. (e.g. China was the "Middle Kingdom," meaning the center of the cosmos.
Recommended Posts