Mormon God And Ultimate Reality

[Anakin7]

In my recent friendly exchange with a Southern Baptist minister he stated that "GOD" is the ultimate reality in the universe and that the mormon understanding of God in light of the King Follett Discourse on the history of how God "came To be God" by Joseph Smith Jr. is totaly against traditional Christian history and reality. Any thoughts/references to material on his statement ?, books/journals/papers ?, thanks in advance.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[KevinG]

The King Follett discourse is somewhat speculative and not in our core doctrines, nonetheless it makes sense to me that as we are our Father once was. This does not extent to believing He was carnal or sinful - just that He grew, progressed and achieved perfection as He now provides us a path to do so.

For a great scripture on the relationship between God, ultimate reality and man share D&C 93:1-40 and ask what the preacher disagrees with there.

P.S. having had discussions with Baptist preachers I doubt you will ever get a concession that you could be correct about anything even if you agree with him. There is some pretty bad bigotry against Mormons when it comes to allowing us to claim we believe in Christ.

Edited November 1, 2011 by DaddyG

[Questing Beast]

Joseph Smith's god cannot be the ultimate concept possible for Existence in the first place. My concept, lacking any factual details, is still much bigger, infinitely bigger, than a single "intelligence" that is the greatest of all the intelligences: which all existed without any beginning, making all of us "gods" in a literal sense of the word. So why should all the "gods" worship "God" when he is just like us? I try to worship the concept of a Necessary Cause: for intelligence that always existed cannot be explained without a Necessary Cause. I can see God wanting to enter into the space-time "he" caused to be and experience it like we do. It may be that we are manifestations of that Necessary Cause; and I cannot see how we would be something else. That is creation, with God causing all of it to manifest. In detail, the Baptist would disagree, but in concept his God cannot be anything else but "my" Necessary Cause which Is the ultimate reality. Is, or I AM, manifests differently to each of us, so that no two concepts for "God" are ever going to be in total agreement with each other: that would be repetitious and boring!...

[ERayR]

In my recent friendly exchange with a Southern Baptist minister he stated that "GOD" is the ultimate reality in the universe and that the mormon understanding of God in light of the King Follett Discourse on the history of how God "came To be God" by Joseph Smith Jr. is totaly against traditional Christian history and reality. Any thoughts/references to material on his statement ?, books/journals/papers ?, thanks in advance.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

As I posted in another thread the reason they have trouble with that concept is because of their not understanding man's place in things. Their concept of man is that of a deprave toy made by God for amusement. The latter-day Saind concept is that we are the literal offspring of God. We are literally his children sent here on a training mission.

[volgadon]

Ah yes, the annual "my god is bigger than your god" post.

[Log]

God as the ground of all being leads directly to the problem of evil, and is why no other religion which teaches this philosophy (mingled, as always, with scripture) can escape the logical conundrum implied by the existence of evil.

Of course, it remains to be seen how the ground of all being can be said to be a personal God in any relevant sense.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Log

[ldsfaqs]

God being the Ultimate reality in the "Universe" doesn't change the fact that the King Folleit Discource specifically states that God the Father was once a man as "Christ" was once a man. (note a separate section makes that distinction clear for those who may not immediately see it)

Is not Christ the Creator? Is he not the Ultimate reality in the Universe when it comes to man? Is he not God?

Anyway, show him that Christ Himself said he did nothing he hadn't see the Father also do. Show your preacher friend that verse in the Bible.

Christ's words are very direct and can't really mean or imply anything else other than exactly what he stated, which by the way is where Joseph Smith got the idea that the Father was once a man as Christ was once a man.

Ask him why he doesn't believe the teachings of the Bible, and instead embraces the teachings of his religion over the Word of God.

Christ Himself said the Father did the same as he was doing. No other "context" changes that direct and clear statement. Either he believes in the Bible, or he doesn't.

Tell him, that there's a little secret that Mormonism is actually the most Biblical religion on the planet. Because we actually believe and teach IN FULL what the Bible actually teaches. Other religions do not especially his.

Edited November 1, 2011 by ldsfaqs

[BCSpace]

I would answer by mentioning the fact that the deification of man is the only method the Bible mentions as to how Gods are created. That in and of itself contains three major contradictions with traditional, as opposed to orthodox and original, christianity.

1. Deification of man.

2. Plurality of Gods.

3. Gods are created beings.

Should get the conversation hopping pretty quickly.

Edited November 1, 2011 by BCSpace

[BCSpace]

Ah yes, the annual "my god is bigger than your god" post.

Always won by LDS because our God creates other Gods.

[LeSellers]

Ah yes, the annual "my god is bigger than your god" post.

Nah!!

It's quarterly. Did you not get the memo?

Lehi

[Anakin7]

Good thoughts so far keep them coming. Any good books you can refer to ?, Blake Ostler's Books ?.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited November 1, 2011 by Anakin7

[Questing Beast]

Ah yes, the annual "my god is bigger than your god" post.

My concept Is bigger than any others expressed here so far. I am willing to go bigger, as big as I possibly can, and spend eternity expanding my knowledge of "God". Are you? Or are you satisfied with the concept that an uncaused intelligence, who happens to be bigger than you will ever be, is "giving" you an opportunity to use his domain to create worlds of your own, on which you will be seen as their god? Is that your god then? I want to worship the Cause that caused him, and me, and everything else to Exist instead of Nothing....

[volgadon]

My concept Is bigger than any others expressed here so far. I am willing to go bigger, as big as I possibly can, and spend eternity expanding my knowledge of "God". Are you? Or are you satisfied with the concept that an uncaused intelligence, who happens to be bigger than you will ever be, is "giving" you an opportunity to use his domain to create worlds of your own, on which you will be seen as their god? Is that your god then? I want to worship the Cause that caused him, and me, and everything else to Exist instead of Nothing....

I'm sorry, I find the whole thing rather silly. Expanding my knowledge of God doesn't mean that I have to constantly expand the size of God. I'd rather go for things as they are over an unbridled imagination.

[Vance]

Ah yes, the annual "my god is bigger than your god" post.

It is all part of the "omni" de jour tour.

[Log]

I want to worship the Cause that caused him, and me, and everything else to Exist instead of Nothing....

Then you literally want to worship nothing.

[Mudcat]

God as the ground of all being leads directly to the problem of evil, and is why no other religion which teaches this philosophy (mingled, as always, with scripture) can escape the logical conundrum implied by the existence of evil.

Of course, it remains to be seen how the ground of all being can be said to be a personal God in any relevant sense.

I think LDS thought likely bypasses this issue, in the sense that God did not create evil. However, there is the underlying issue that given the LDS premise that there must be opposition in all things. God and those who follow him are sort of like the Jedi's vs. the followers of darkness. The ability to actually control or ultimately eradicate evil doesn't seem consistent with the LDS paradigm.

I don't see the issue in regards to evil as ultimately problematic for Evangelicals, like myself. Beings that were capable of evil action were introduced by God and with God being omniscient, then God would also be responsible for the existence of evil. However, this situation is ultimately resolved and evil is one day removed from any significant existence.

[altersteve]

I am willing to go bigger, as big as I possibly can, and spend eternity expanding my knowledge of "God". Are you?

Are you assuming that we aren't?

[mfbukowski]

Joseph Smith's god cannot be the ultimate concept possible for Existence in the first place. My concept, lacking any factual details, is still much bigger, infinitely bigger, than a single "intelligence" that is the greatest of all the intelligences: which all existed without any beginning, making all of us "gods" in a literal sense of the word. So why should all the "gods" worship "God" when he is just like us? I try to worship the concept of a Necessary Cause: for intelligence that always existed cannot be explained without a Necessary Cause. I can see God wanting to enter into the space-time "he" caused to be and experience it like we do. It may be that we are manifestations of that Necessary Cause; and I cannot see how we would be something else. That is creation, with God causing all of it to manifest. In detail, the Baptist would disagree, but in concept his God cannot be anything else but "my" Necessary Cause which Is the ultimate reality. Is, or I AM, manifests differently to each of us, so that no two concepts for "God" are ever going to be in total agreement with each other: that would be repetitious and boring!...

Yeah, that's because you both are Neoplatonists.

Mormons are not.

[Calm]

I think LDS thought likely bypasses this issue, in the sense that God did not create evil. However, there is the underlying issue that given the LDS premise that there must be opposition in all things. God and those who follow him are sort of like the Jedi's vs. the followers of darkness. The ability to actually control or ultimately eradicate evil doesn't seem consistent with the LDS paradigm.

I don't see the issue in regards to evil as ultimately problematic for Evangelicals, like myself. Beings that were capable of evil action were introduced by God and with God being omniscient, then God would also be responsible for the existence of evil. However, this situation is ultimately resolved and evil is one day removed from any significant existence.

But what about the suffering in the meantime? Is it necessary?

And those who are seduced by evil who end up damned because of their choices?

How do you resolve those issues (understanding as always your personal belief may vary from the 'mainstream')?

---------

For LDS why God doesn't step in and remove any evil influences is a matter of faith and trust much like other faiths; I see the primary difference in the treatment of evil not so much the suffering but the ultimate destinations of those who choose to engage in evil actions knowingly as well as those who engage in them unknowingly (because their culture or environment or even mental constructs interprets evil as good). LDS doctrine states there is in place a process by which God 'makes up' for any lack of this kind in someone's upbringing so that ultimately if someone chooses evil it is because they desire evil and not because they were misled or unaware of the good. I know some point to scriptures that say all creation is a witness for the Lord to support the idea that there is no excuse for rejecting him.....but considering the infinite interpretation of that particular witness such an argument just isn't satisfying to me.