inquiringmind Posted October 21, 2011 Posted October 21, 2011 In D&C 19, Martin Harris is commanded to "repent, lest I humble you with my Almighty power."This was in March 1830 (the same month that the BOM was published.)I was thinking of this when I was re-reading the testimony of the three witnesses.The testimony isn't dated, and I was wondering if it's possible to date it?If Martin Harris still had to be told to repent after he saw the plates and heard an angel, God must be more patient then I sometimes think that He is.Anyone?
CV75 Posted October 21, 2011 Posted October 21, 2011 In D&C 19, Martin Harris is commanded to "repent, lest I humble you with my Almighty power."This was in March 1830 (the same month that the BOM was published.)I was thinking of this when I was re-reading the testimony of the three witnesses.The testimony isn't dated, and I was wondering if it's possible to date it?If Martin Harris still had to be told to repent after he saw the plates and heard an angel, God must be more patient then I sometimes think that He is.Anyone?I'd say the testimony was written and signed sometime between summer 1829 and March 1830, according to the links below. Yes, God can be very patient, and we can always use more repenting.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Witnesseshttp://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=21
Mark Beesley Posted October 21, 2011 Posted October 21, 2011 If Martin Harris still had to be told to repent after he saw the plates and heard an angel, God must be more patient then I sometimes think that He is.Anyone?I don't know how patient you think God is, but my experience is that His patience is matched only by His love for His children. Heavenly manifestations do not make one immune to stumbling, and stumbling (even willfully) does not disqualify one from God's mercy. "Yea, and as often as my people repent will I forgive them their trespasses against me."Mosiah 26:30 1
inquiringmind Posted October 24, 2011 Author Posted October 24, 2011 I don't know how patient you think God is, but my experience is that His patience is matched only by His love for His children. Heavenly manifestations do not make one immune to stumbling, and stumbling (even willfully) does not disqualify one from God's mercy."Yea, and as often as my people repent will I forgive them their trespasses against me."Mosiah 26:30I'm unclear on whether Harris received this warning to repent before or after he saw the plates and heard the angel.In the history of Latter Day Saints, is there any example of anyone who definitely had to repent of some serious sin after he had a heavenly manifestation?(I've been reading about William Wines Phelps, and it seems he left the Church, testified against Joseph Smith, and then repented--but I don't see any record of his having any kind of heavenly manifestation.)
altersteve Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 In the history of Latter Day Saints, is there any example of anyone who definitely had to repent of some serious sin after he had a heavenly manifestation?Joseph Smith for one.
inquiringmind Posted October 27, 2011 Author Posted October 27, 2011 Joseph Smith for one.But weren't those just little sins?
inquiringmind Posted October 27, 2011 Author Posted October 27, 2011 There are several in the scriptures.Could you elaborate?
Avatar4321 Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 In D&C 19, Martin Harris is commanded to "repent, lest I humble you with my Almighty power."This was in March 1830 (the same month that the BOM was published.)I was thinking of this when I was re-reading the testimony of the three witnesses.The testimony isn't dated, and I was wondering if it's possible to date it?If Martin Harris still had to be told to repent after he saw the plates and heard an angel, God must be more patient then I sometimes think that He is.Anyone?Joseph Smith was told multiple times that he needed to repent throughout the D&C. This was long after He saw the Father and the Son, the Angel Moroni, and others visions and angelic visitors.If Joseph Smith had to be told to repent after these experiences, why wouldnt Martin Harris be treated differently? Why would we?God is very patient with us brother. And thank God He is!
altersteve Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 (edited) But weren't those just little sins?Allowing a rather large portion of the Book of Mormon manuscript to be lost/destroyed (for example) is not simply a "little sin," and the Lord flat out told him no and he did it anyway. That is a very serious sin, especially when a prophet does it. Edited October 27, 2011 by altersteve
Calm Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 Could you elaborate?Iirc, the brother of Jared was chastised not praying after a manifestation, see Ether 2:4 and 14. Considering he was the leader of his people in a precarious situation, this is significant IMO. Noah got stone drunk after "walking with God", see Genesis 6:9. Lam an and Lemuel saw an angel, groveled some for awhile and then fell into sinful ways again to the point of trying to take their brother's life. I know there are some others, but can't dig them out of the recesses of my brain right now.
Arkholt Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 Moses was disallowed from seeing the promised land due to disobedience, and we of course know what amazing manifestations he had.
inquiringmind Posted November 1, 2011 Author Posted November 1, 2011 I've been told that "The Three Witnesses were shown the plates and other items by Moroni at the end of June 1829."Is that correct?
Questing Beast Posted November 1, 2011 Posted November 1, 2011 It was probably in July of 1829, since the translation was not finished until around July 1st. In the 1830 edition of the BofM, the testimony of the three and eight witnesses is published in the back. This makes any 1830 rebuke of Martin Harris after the fact of his vision of the plates and the angel by almost a whole year....
Calm Posted November 1, 2011 Posted November 1, 2011 I've been told that "The Three Witnesses were shown the plates and other items by Moroni at the end of June 1829."Is that correct?This might be helpful: http://mimobile.byu.edu/?m=5&table=books&bookid=51&id=377
cinepro Posted November 1, 2011 Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) Allowing a rather large portion of the Book of Mormon manuscript to be lost/destroyed (for example) is not simply a "little sin," and the Lord flat out told him no and he did it anyway. That is a very serious sin, especially when a prophet does it.While the Lord initially said no, He ultimately did allow it.Martin Harris, having written some one hundred and sixteen pages for Joseph, asked permission of my son to carry the manuscript home with him, in order to let his wife read it, as he hoped it might have a salutary effect upon her feelings.Joseph was willing to gratify his friend as far as he could consistently, and he inquired of the Lord to know if he might do as Martin Harris had requested, but was refused. With this Mr. Harris was not altogether satisfied, and, at his urgent request, Joseph inquired again, but received a second refusal. Still, Martin Harris persisted as before, and Joseph applied again, but the last answer was not like the two former ones. In this the Lord permitted Martin Harris to take the manuscript home with him, on condition that he would exhibit it to none, save five individuals whom he had mentioned, and who belonged to his own family.Mr. Harris was delighted with this, and bound himself in a written covenant of the most solemn nature, that he would strictly comply with the injunctions which he had received. Which being done, he took the manuscript and went home. Lucy Mack SmithIt seems, in some things, God is a little like Edited November 1, 2011 by cinepro
inquiringmind Posted November 1, 2011 Author Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) It was probably in July of 1829, since the translation was not finished until around July 1st. In the 1830 edition of the BofM, the testimony of the three and eight witnesses is published in the back. This makes any 1830 rebuke of Martin Harris after the fact of his vision of the plates and the angel by almost a whole year....This might be helpful: http://mimobile.byu....ookid=51&id=377Thank you both.It doesn't make much difference to me whether it was in June or July, but how do we know it was 1829?How do we know it wasn't right before the book was published in 1830? Edited November 1, 2011 by inquiringmind
cinepro Posted November 1, 2011 Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) How do we know it wasn't right before the book was published in 1830?Here's where Eldon Watson places it in his excellent timeline:~Thursday, June 25, 1829 Enos/Jarom/Omni 3 Witnesses see angel and plates Lucy places the vision of the angel and the plates by the three witnesses as occurring after completion of the Book of Mormon translation, but Joseph's account indicates some additional translation after the appearance of Moroni to the three witnesses. Lucy states that in the morning, after breakfast and the subsequent daily morning services (reading, singing and prayer), they went to a grove a short distance from the house. It was between 3:00 and 4:00 in the afternoon when they returned, so even leaving time for preparatory prayer and subsequent discussion, the vision must have lasted for more than four hours. ~Sunday, June 28, 1829, Manchester Eight Witnesses view plates. Lucy records that on the day following the experience of the three witnesses, they returned to their home in Manchester, and states that in a few days they were followed by Joseph, Oliver and the Whitmers, for a visit. Sunday seems like a particularly appropriate day for a visit, so I have selected the only Sunday remaining in June. It was during this visit, in Manchester, that the eight witnesses saw and handled the plates. After the witnesses returned to the house, the angel again appeared to Joseph, whereupon Joseph returned the plates to his care. [see REH 203] Edited November 1, 2011 by cinepro
inquiringmind Posted February 6, 2012 Author Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) I was just reading this tonight, and I thought it might be relevant here.Now there was one among them who was a Nephite by birth, who had once belonged to the church of God but had dissented from them. And it came to pass that he turned him about, and behold, he saw through the cloud of darkness the faces of Nephi and Lehi; and behold, they did shine exceedingly, even as the faces of angels. And he beheld that they did lift their eyes to heaven; and they were in the attitude as if talking or lifting their voices to some being whom they beheld.Now the man’s name was Aminadab. And Aminadab said unto them: They do converse with the angels of God.And it came to pass that the Lamanites said unto him: What shall we do, that this cloud of darkness may be removed from overshadowing us? And Aminadab said unto them: You must repent, and cry unto the voice, even until ye shall have faith in Christ, who was taught unto you by Alma, Amulek, and Zeezrom; and when ye shall do this, the cloud of darkness shall be removed from overshadowing you. And it came to pass that they all did begin to cry unto the voice of him who had shaken the earth; yea, they did cry even until the cloud of darkness was dispersed. And it came to pass that when they cast their eyes about, and saw that the cloud of darkness was dispersed from overshadowing them, behold, they saw that they were encircled about, yea every soul, by a pillar of fire.http://classic.scrip...ds.org/en/hel/5 Edited February 6, 2012 by inquiringmind
The Nehor Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 Moses was disallowed from seeing the promised land due to disobedience, and we of course know what amazing manifestations he had.Seemed more like a pretext to explain it rather then the real thing. His punishment was to be translated instead of dealing with the mewling hordes of Israelites whining, murmuring, and rebelling against him and God.The D&C suggests that Moses (and the High Priesthood) was removed to punish them not him.
aspire Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 But weren't those just little sins?No such thing as little sins. Sin is sin no matter what.
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