cinepro Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 The biggest tragedy in all this are the members who inadvertently go against Church policy because the Bishop never thought to illuminate an issue for them. It can be something as serious as the Church's "strong discouragement" of surgical sterilization (when such discouragement may be a deciding factor for a faithful couple), or something as simple as the prohibition on hay bales in meetinghouses (a policy which seems to get violated every year for Halloween in our building).
Ariarates Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 You continue to misrepresent the character of the CHI. It is not confidential. It is available through the Bishop. You have been informed of this many times in this thread. I am beginning to think your misrepresentation is deliberate.This is from Book 1 itself:"This handbook has been prepared solely for use by general and local Church officers to administer the affairs of the Church. It should not be duplicated or given to any other persons. The distribution list includes a file copy to be kept in a secure place by each stake and ward clerk. He may refer to it for information on finances and records and for information on supporting the stake president or bishop" (p. vi).Now, call me weird and kooky, but this sure sounds like the book is intended to remain confidential. Which is fighting against windmills, of course, if you then distribute it to thousands of lay leaders. I guess it makes some people feel more important. 1
Calm Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 Considering the number of members that have been part of bishoprics and stake presidencies as well as ward and stake clerks over the years, I don't see the restriction of the Handbook as all that exclusive.As has been pointed out Handbook 2 has the information about sterilization and other issues that may be a personal issue: http://lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/selected-church-policies/21.4?lang=eng#214Please demonstrate that there is a policy dealing with a personal issue that is not now available online for all to access.
LeSellers Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 "This handbook has been prepared solely for use by general and local Church officers t... " (p. vi).Now, call me weird and kooky, but this sure sounds like the book is intended to remain confidential. Which is fighting against windmills, of course, if you then distribute it to thousands of lay leaders. I guess it makes some people feel more important.Okeh, you're "weird and kooky".Finished with that formality, I'd only ask "Is any place in volume 1 that demands that no authorized possessor of the book withhold the information in it (on any subject) away from anyone in the stewardship of that possessor who has more than a 'satiable curiosity about the matter in question?"Because, as I have read it, there is no such restriction.Lehi
Calm Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 . I guess it makes some people feel more important.Seriously? This is the only or most important reason you can think of for limiting its possession to only the people who need it to make the policy decisions it alone covers? As has been pointed out, Handbook 2 also has the list of policies about personal and family issues. 1
seriously honestly Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 or something as simple as the prohibition on hay bales in meetinghouses (a policy which seems to get violated every year for Halloween in our building).Are you just joking, or is that really policy? What an odd thing to mention...
LeSellers Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 Are you just joking, or is [a prohibition on hay bales in meetinghouses] really policy? What an odd thing to mention...Hay is flammable, and baling wire is dangerous for children and floors, walls, etc. We won't mention the tendency for people lift them, people who may or may not be physically able to do so. It's a safety issue, and it's very important.Lehi
Calm Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 Are you just joking, or is that really policy? What an odd thing to mention...It probably has to do with fire hazard and accident prevention....which is discussed in Handbook 2.Hay bales are discussed in Handbook 2, not 1 under Decorations in the first section.So far all the complaints about inaccessible info have been referring to material actually in Handbook 2, which demonstrates that some people are more interested in complaining than the actual information because they haven't even bothered to read what is accessible.
mtomm Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 The biggest tragedy in all this are the members who inadvertently go against Church policy because the Bishop never thought to illuminate an issue for them.It can be something as serious as the Church's "strong discouragement" of surgical sterilization (when such discouragement may be a deciding factor for a faithful couple), or something as simple as the prohibition on hay bales in meetinghouses (a policy which seems to get violated every year for Halloween in our building).There we go! That's my answer right there. If I don't have the handbook then I'm absolved from having to know what is in it and I can't be held responsible if I didn't know or I wasn't taught. If everyone had one they'd all be expected to know what is in it and we'd be expected to study it. Well, just like Handbook #2 is another manual to study, learn, and know. Actually, Calmoriah, the hay bales things is discussed in Handbook #1 as well. And you will often bring mice into a building along with the bales. AND straw and hay are murder on vacuums.
Calm Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 There is, IMO, one hugely important reason to limit possession (not access) to Handbook 1 and that is the details dealing with worthiness for certain ordinances and callings. There is a type of personality that tends to judge themselves overly harshly as well as others who tend to be pessimistic in their worldview. I can see these types of individuals looking into Handbook 1 and deciding to give up because they see no hope for themselves when the reality is that not only may they be misinterpreting the guidelines, they may completely miss the fact that they are guidelines and it is the Bishop's decision that matters. Plus having to go to the Bishop to inquire gives them a chance to discuss their concerns and where valid, seek the Bishop's help in furthering their repentance, once of the Bishop's primary duties.
Calm Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 (edited) Actually, Calmoriah, the hay bales things is discussed in Handbook #1 as well. And you will often bring mice into a building along with the bales. AND straw and hay are murder on vacuums.Good points.Are you sure about it being in Handbook 1? I'm looking at it right now and can only see a reference that says to see handbook 2.Never mind, see that it is also in another part of the book, probably just saving time to not list the various places in Handbook 1. Edited October 20, 2011 by calmoriah
mtomm Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 And a couple of years ago our previous bishop held a meeting with the youth where he let them ask him and his counselors questions and if the answer was in Handbook #1 he read the answer directly from there. That doesn't make it very secret in my opinion.The only problem I had with it was then he'd add his own spin to the answer. But that's just people.
mtomm Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 (edited) 8.4.2Online version Edited October 20, 2011 by mtomm
Ariarates Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 Please demonstrate that there is a policy dealing with a personal issue that is not now available online for all to access.Maybe the one about discouraging adopted children from contacting their biological parents? Quoting from memory here, while hazarding a guess. May or may not be accurate but I'm too lazy to look it up.
Ariarates Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 Is any place in volume 1 that demands that no authorized possessor of the book withhold the information in it (on any subject) away from anyone in the stewardship of that possessor who has more than a 'satiable curiosity about the matter in question?"Because, as I have read it, there is no such restriction.I agree. Whatever attempt at confidentiality is made on page vi is widely ignored in practice (said so before in this thread).
Calm Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 (edited) http://lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/selected-church-policies/21.4?lang=eng#21.1.3PS: adopted children are not discouraged from finding bio parents, the only caution is to handle the situation with sensitivity....which is simple wisdom, IMO. Edited October 21, 2011 by calmoriah
Cobalt-70 Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 I can see these types of individuals looking into Handbook 1 and deciding to give up because they see no hope for themselves when the reality is that not only may they be misinterpreting the guidelines, they may completely miss the fact that they are guidelines and it is the Bishop's decision that matters.Two problems with this argument: (1) it assumes that a Bishop, a lay leader who may have no special experience in reading texts, is more likely to read the manual "correctly" than is another layperson, and (2) if the member has access to no text whatsoever, isn't it even more likely that they will misinterpret church policy and possibly see no hope for themselves?
Calm Posted October 21, 2011 Posted October 21, 2011 (edited) Well, since it is the bishop who has to make decisions on worthiness anyway if they want to get baptized, go on missions, go to the temple, be reinstated, etc. worrying about whether or not he misinterprets it isn't going to make a difference to the long run, but for those who desire to participate but tend to make negative assessments about themselves it just may. Plus these types of individuals tend to benefit from having external dialogues about themselves as they often hold unrealistic views of themselves that dominate their internal dialogue so just having a reason to push themselves to open up to others can be very helpful.If they are not aware of church policy, then when the bishop instigates an interview he will at that time be able to encourage the person to come, the person being unaware of the standards set out will not be so sure of his position in most cases and thus be more willing to meet with his leader. Edited October 21, 2011 by calmoriah
seriously honestly Posted October 21, 2011 Posted October 21, 2011 It probably has to do with fire hazard and accident prevention....which is discussed in Handbook 2.Hay bales are discussed in Handbook 2, not 1 under Decorations in the first section.So far all the complaints about inaccessible info have been referring to material actually in Handbook 2, which demonstrates that some people are more interested in complaining than the actual information because they haven't even bothered to read what is accessible.Thanks, I found it But it was in section 2 towards the very back...
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted October 21, 2011 Posted October 21, 2011 Agree or disagree: All church Members (and or the general public) should have unrestricted access to Church Handbook of Instructions Book 1?I understand the arguments for and against it, just want to know what others think.Do not agree as the Bishop would never get it back...This Mormon included, never let a Mormon borrow a book.
LeSellers Posted October 21, 2011 Posted October 21, 2011 But it was in section 2 towards the very back...You make it sound as if they were hiding it. Something has to be "towards the very back".Lehi
Deborah Posted October 21, 2011 Posted October 21, 2011 We hear leaders and teachers constantly admonishing the members to read the scriptures. If it is so hard to do that why would most people be interested in what it is in the CHI except those trying to find a smoking gun to attack the church. 1
ERayR Posted October 21, 2011 Posted October 21, 2011 Thanks, I found it But it was in section 2 towards the very back...Must not be very important way in th back like that. Where would you have put it?
ERMD Posted October 21, 2011 Posted October 21, 2011 But the Book of Mormon doesn't say anything about attending hypnotist shows, or giving married people a ride to church without a chaperone. If these type of things are important enough to be included in church policy, then why not just teach members these things openly--even broadcast it from the rooftops--and let them exercise their God-given agency to make their own choices?If problems had not arisen from such activities, then they would not be mentioned in the CHI. The idea is to give guidelines to people to help keep their lives from becoming more complicated. Temple worthiness does not hinge on these guidelines. They are simply common sense matters that in most cases are innocent, but occasionally difficulties can arise from them.
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