thesometimesaint Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 cinepro:False analogy. No member of the Church is prevented for reading the CHI. It is essentially no different than going to the public library and reading any book there or is available by the Inter-Library Exchange program.http://www.tomswift.info/homepage/library.html
ERayR Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 Reading this thread, I imagine a bunch of Catholics sitting around 1,000 years ago and discussing whether the parishoners should be able to read the scriptures on their own, and having these same arguments being brought up."Why would we need that? You can ask your priest about the Bible anytime you like?""But if people had the Bible, that would just give our critics ammunition to criticize the priests and the church about all the stuff that we're doing wrong..."Of course, this is totally different in many important ways, but it was just a funny thought."Of course, this is totally different in many important ways, but it was just a funny thought."Not even close. The CHI is not doctrine nor does it contain doctine. It is a procedural manual. Why don't you call for the SBC or the Catholocs or GM to print their procedures manuals for the public?
mfbukowski Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 None of his business, I'd say (as per the handbook, if I'm not mistaken).These are adults we're talking about, right?I'm with him. It's not just strange, it's beyond belief that an ecclessiastical leader would assume that he needs to be consulted by two adults on a matter of personal health.You are completely right, and I have some experience in such matters. Sound that the bishop was acting inappropriately there. He has no business even inquiring into these issues in these circumstances.
mfbukowski Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 "Of course, this is totally different in many important ways, but it was just a funny thought."Not even close. The CHI is not doctrine nor does it contain doctine. It is a procedural manual. Why don't you call for the SBC or the Catholocs or GM to print their procedures manuals for the public?
Saints Alive Posted October 19, 2011 Author Posted October 19, 2011 Why don't you call for the SBC or the Catholocs or GM to print their procedures manuals for the public?with the exception of GM I don't think any church would have a problem providing that. They probably wont hand out printed copies but they would be more than glad to let you copy it on your own dime or provide access to their electronic versions.
ERayR Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 with the exception of GM I don't think any church would have a problem providing that. They probably wont hand out printed copies but they would be more than glad to let you copy it on your own dime or provide access to their electronic versions.I'll take you up on that. You believe you can get it Do It. Go out and get a copy and report back. I will be waiting for you to prove your assertion and if not soon forthcoming I will remind you. I don't think you can.
Saints Alive Posted October 19, 2011 Author Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) Name another church that has a "procedural" manual comparable to oursthe SBC has all of their policies, resolutions, and position statements clearly posted onlinehttp://www.sbc.net/ (see the left hand side of the screen) Edited October 19, 2011 by Saints Alive
ERayR Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Name another church that has a "procedural" manual comparable to oursthe SBC has all of their policies, resolutions, and position statements clearly posted onlinehttp://www.sbc.net/ (see the left hand side of the screen)Try the Catholic procedures manual for their Priests.
Saints Alive Posted October 19, 2011 Author Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) Try the Catholic procedures manual for their Priests.do you have a specific manual in mind? the only thing I can think of is the Roman Missal (which is provided in the pews of almost every catholic Church) Edited October 19, 2011 by Saints Alive
ERayR Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) do you have a specific manual in mind? the only thing I can think of is the Roman Missal (which is provided in the pews of almost every catholic Church)Go for their instruction manual on running a parrish. One that gives instructions for dealing with conduct and procedures for everything from church finance to conducting confessions to dealing with abuse etc. In other words their handbook of instructions.Oh it should also include instructions for their Cardinals on running dioceses and the vatiican. Edited October 19, 2011 by ERayR
Saints Alive Posted October 19, 2011 Author Posted October 19, 2011 Go for their instruction manual on running a parrish. One that gives instructions for dealing with conduct and procedures for everything from church finance to conducting confessions to dealing with abuse etc. In other words their handbook of instructions.Oh it should also include instructions for their Cardinals on running dioceses and the vatiican.What I am saying is; can you verify that such a book exists? I don't think they have anything like that. Not published in one book anyway.
Saints Alive Posted October 19, 2011 Author Posted October 19, 2011 how about this? http://pastoralplanning.diobrook.org/pastoral-planning/cluster/christ-jesus/You really need to provide a specific manual that another church doesn't provide access to in order for you to prove your point.
ERayR Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Name another church that has a "procedural" manual comparable to oursthe SBC has all of their policies, resolutions, and position statements clearly posted onlinehttp://www.sbc.net/ (see the left hand side of the screen)After a short perusal what is posted on this site is really nothing more than what can be found on any church web site, including the LDS web site. I want you to find their instructions to their Ministers on how to operate the church and how to deal with abuse, church finances, confessions and etc. It should also include instructions on how to for the SBC as well as individual churches. Then and only then will it be comparable. Believe me they have one somewhere.
Saints Alive Posted October 19, 2011 Author Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) here is one for the SBC: http://docs.google.c...UbUetKsNC8iln7Q Edited October 19, 2011 by Saints Alive
thesometimesaint Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Saints Alive:Ask the Catholics to describe in detail how the Pope is selected.
Saints Alive Posted October 19, 2011 Author Posted October 19, 2011 Saints Alive:Ask the Catholics to describe in detail how the Pope is selected.Ask us to describe in detail how the endowment is preformed. You are comparing apples and oranges. My challenge is for you or anyone to find another mainstream Church that has both:1. a procedural manual that that is comparable to CHI 12. denies public access to such manual
ERayR Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 how about this? http://pastoralplann...r/christ-jesus/You really need to provide a specific manual that another church doesn't provide access to in order for you to prove your point.You are the one claiming other churches provides access to their instructions governing the inner workings of their organization. I am challenging you to prove this. Believe me there are procedural manuals covering all this. No organization of any size is without them. You are the one making the claim that they are openly available. It is not my job to tell you what to look for. If it is openly available you shouldn't have any trouble finding it. Now again find them or retract your assertions that they are openly available and stop calling for the LDS Church to providde you copies of their procedures manuals.
ERayR Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Ask us to describe in detail how the endowment is preformed. You are comparing apples and oranges.My challenge is for you or anyone to find another mainstream Church that has both:1. a procedural manual that that is comparable to CHI 12. denies public access to such manualRed herring. It doesn't have to be like the CHI but it does have to include the procedures for operating their church. As I said above they have them. No organization of any size is without them. You are the one claiming they are available to the public. Prove it. Do your home work and come back or else retract your claim.
Saints Alive Posted October 19, 2011 Author Posted October 19, 2011 You are the one claiming other churches provides access to their instructions governing the inner workings of their organization. I am challenging you to prove this. Believe me there are procedural manuals covering all this. No organization of any size is without them. You are the one making the claim that they are openly available. It is not my job to tell you what to look for. If it is openly available you shouldn't have any trouble finding it. Now again find them or retract your assertions that they are openly available and stop calling for the LDS Church to providde you copies of their procedures manuals.BALONE!!! Look at what YOU said below. "Of course, this is totally different in many important ways, but it was just a funny thought."Not even close. The CHI is not doctrine nor does it contain doctine. It is a procedural manual. Why don't you call for the SBC or the Catholocs or GM to print their procedures manuals for the public?Show me JUST ONE other church that has a procedural manual not available to the public. I listed at least two examples of procedural manuals from other churches and you ignored it.
Saints Alive Posted October 19, 2011 Author Posted October 19, 2011 Red herring. It doesn't have to be like the CHI but it does have to include the procedures for operating their church.I said "comparable to" I even let you define that. As I said above they have them. No organization of any size is without them. You are the one claiming they are available to the public. Prove it. Do your home work and come back or else retract your claim.I showed you two examples and thus far you have ignored them.
Saints Alive Posted October 19, 2011 Author Posted October 19, 2011 here is one for the Free Methodists Churches: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:SdOQHUrlTjgJ:www.freemethodistchurch.org/pdfs/resources/pclm/P%2526CLMan_Web.pdf+united+methodist+pastors+manual&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShFIuYX9Hj14Uej22tC70DthidUNc9yV2E0cMPr793ZYCj9tdMzS3bIVxBOogrT1q3BG-2jGOURYLU0d8NJtqy-2RH5Rwi1olal1wNJ0iOKN_gLRzouTcnoHyeSqufbet2n9nIg&sig=AHIEtbS7Zb_3GkVuZwgOojIG2_J43lK4vg
Saints Alive Posted October 19, 2011 Author Posted October 19, 2011 here is one for the Presbyterian church Specifically about finances: http://www.pcusa.org/resource/stewardship-manual/
Cobalt-70 Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 As a counter-example, the Church of Scientology does have secret manuals for "auditors" (their equivalent of priests). But that is part of their business structure: people pay for "audits" and if the audit documents were published, people could theoretically obtain "clear" status without paying a hundred thousand dollars to the church. The LDS Church, by contrast, does not have pastoral "trade secrets" which, if revealed, would reduce tithing income.
Saints Alive Posted October 19, 2011 Author Posted October 19, 2011 As a counter-example, the Church of Scientology does have secret manuals for "auditors" (their equivalent of priests). But that is part of their business structure: people pay for "audits" and if the audit documents were published, people could theoretically obtain "clear" status without paying a hundred thousand dollars to the church. The LDS Church, by contrast, does not have pastoral "trade secrets" which, if revealed, would reduce tithing income.that and we don't really want to compare ourselves to Scientology if we dont have to.
cinepro Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 "Of course, this is totally different in many important ways, but it was just a funny thought."Not even close. The CHI is not doctrine nor does it contain doctine. It is a procedural manual. Why don't you call for the SBC or the Catholocs or GM to print their procedures manuals for the public?In case you missed it, I'm not "calling for the Church to make the CHI public".
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