Continents Only Separated In 2200 Bc?

[Cobalt-70]

Unless you wish to make it a very big hobby that takes up all of your time then avoid geology. These kinds of discussions mostly lead no where. In a nut shell science believes that all things around us today continued into the past. So atomic decay we see today can be used to date things in the past. However if the "constants" of nature were different then all of their dating is for nothing. I believe that God has changed the world and the universe when He wanted to. The fall of Adam and the flood being two events which God could have reordered the creation. So fossils are dated by atomic means, that then dates the rocks. Like I said it is all based on assumptions. If we assume that God has the power to change His creation at will then we happen to believe in miracles. Science denies miracles. So it all boils down to faith. Do you have faith that there is something beyond the creation, some power we call God? Or does one believe that the creation is all there is and an examination of it should not include the possibilities of supernatural events? There is massive evidence that the continents divided. The question is how fast and when? Geology says a long time ago. The Bible may say it took place at the time of Peleg. I happen to believe it did divide at the time of Peleg but I offer no proof.

There is far more evidence than just isotope dating. There is also geomagnetic data, stratum data (i.e., counting the layers), fossil data, etc. All the existing data are independently consistent with the continents breaking up during the Jurassic and Cretaceous eras. If for some reason God "changed his creation," then he is a liar, because why would he deceive us by planting false evidence?

Edited October 12, 2011 by Cobalt-70

[Kevin Christensen]

From Nibley, The World of the Jaredites, chapter 2, Departure.

Certainly it is quite as legitimate to think of the days of Peleg as the time when, as the old Jewish writers describe it, "the children of Noah began to divide the earth among themselves," as, without the least authority, to visualize the drifting of the continents or the rending apart of the terrestrial globe. A reader's first reaction to an ancient and fragmentary text usually becomes a lifelong credo, though research and revelation have combined in latter days to discredit this obvious and easy solution of the mysteries.

Nibley is citing Jubilees 8:8.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[Zakuska]

From Nibley, The World of the Jaredites, chapter 2, Departure.

Nibley is citing Jubilees 8:8.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

I always liked this map...

Rather than the one we see in grade school geography.

When one looks at the Earth from the North Pole. A lot of other things fall into place and make more sense. There still is one super continent. (excluding Antartica of course)

Edited October 12, 2011 by Zakuska

[Cobalt-70]

This is a complex subject that science is far from knowing the answers. I am reading a book about sea floor spreading and moving continents written by Lester King. He is of the opinion that sea floor spreading and plate tectonics make more questions than the theories explain. I agree, just a simple view of trenches and ridges don't seem to relate well to the theory. It may be that the earth actually expanded in the past. There may be some kind of phase change in the material in the core or mantle. Or it may be the results of violates in the mantle. Who knows. But it seems that rather quickly the continents divided and then they slowed down.

The exact timing of all of this is a separate argument.

The details of continental drift may vary, but none of that changes the fact that Pangea broke up hundreds of millions of years ago. Science can certainly distinguish between 200 million years and 4 thousand years. That is a difference of five orders of magnitude. Even Lester King, with his crackpot "expanding earth" hypothesis, didn't believe it all happened within the span of a few years in 2200 BC. Moreover, King's ideas have been disproven in countless ways, including by modern GPS devices and seismic data which prove the existence of crust subduction. His book was universally dismissed by the mainstream scientific community.

[cinepro]

Craig Paxton:

Not confusing at all.

http://newsroom.lds....mormon-doctrine

• Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.
  

Well, it is in the Bible, and it has been "consistently proclaimed in official Church publications", so for those who study what the Church teaches on the issue, it might be a little confusing...

This problem of interpretation was genuine, however, because the period of Babel—confusion of tongues, dispersion of man—and the days of Peleg were closely grouped together and seemed to be in the same general time period. Hence, some biblical scholars said that the word divided referred to the dispersion of man, which was described seven verses later. Other biblical scholars said that the word meant a physical and geographical division of the lands of the earth. But if the date of such a geographical division of the earth’s once supercontinent had been and still is in question, certainly Latter-day Saints never questioned the understanding that there was once a supercontinent.

Gondwanaland

“The dividing of the earth was not an act of division by the inhabitants of the earth by tribes and peoples, but a breaking asunder of the continents, thus dividing the land surface and creating the Eastern Hemisphere and Western Hemisphere. By looking at a wall map of the world, you will discover how the land surface along the northern and southern coast of the American Hemisphere and Europe and Africa has the appearance of having been together at one time. Of course, there have been many changes on the earth’s surface since the beginning. We are informed by revelation that the time will come when this condition will be changed and that the land surface of the earth will come back again as it was in the beginning and all be in one place. This is definitely stated in the Doctrine and Covenants. [ D&C 133:18–20 is then cited.]” (Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5:73–74.)

Old Testament Institute Manual

The words that Isaiah used to describe this latter-day condition of Zion are important. Hephzi-bah means “delightful” in Hebrew and may refer to Jerusalem and Zion’s latter-day righteousness. Beulah means “union” (see Isaiah 62:4). A marriage is once again the symbol of unity, but this time the marriage is not of the people and God but of the land and God.

According to the Doctrine and Covenants, there will come a time when “the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided” (D&C 133:24). In the days of Peleg the earth was divided into continents (see Genesis 10:25), but before that time it was all united in one land mass. The joining of the continents once again can be likened to a union or a marriage that is both hephzi-bah and beulah, that is, delightful and united. The lands, like a man and woman in holy wedlock, will be sealed by the authority of the one officiating (see JST, Isaiah 62:4–5).

Old Testament Institute Manual

That it comes to prepare the way of the Lord, that when He comes He may have a holy people ready to receive Him;

That it comes to show that no man can be too good to be saved, but that many may be too bad:

That it comes to declare that goodness consists in doing good, not merely in preaching it:

That it comes to show that all men's religion is vain without charity;

That it comes to open the way for Zion to rise and put on her beautiful garments and become the glory of the earth, that her land may be joined, or married (according to the known translation of Isaiah) to Jerusalem again, and they be one as they were in the days of Peleg.

Joseph Smith, History of the Church

Division of the earth

• Let the waters be gathered together unto one place, Gen. 1:9
  
• In the days of Peleg was the earth divided, Gen. 10:25
  
• After the waters had receded, it became a choice land, Ether 13:2
  
• The earth shall be like it was before it was divided, D&C 133:24
  

LDS.org - Guide to the Scriptures

Edited October 12, 2011 by cinepro

[thesometimesaint]

cinepro:

Interpretation my friend.

[Zakuska]

cinepro:

Interpretation my friend.

I agree. But that institue manual really needs to be rewritten. It takes some pretty creative stretching to get D&C 133 to say what it wants it to say.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Zakuska

[cinepro]

I agree. But that institue manual really needs to be rewritten. It takes some pretty creative stretching to get D&C 133 to say what it wants it to say.

How so? It really does seem to be referring to a physical division:

20 For behold, he shall stand upon the mount of Olivet, and upon the mighty ocean, even the great deep, and upon the islands of the sea, and upon the land of Zion.

21 And he shall utter his voice out of Zion, and he shall speak from Jerusalem, and his voice shall be heard among all people;

22 And it shall be a voice as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder, which shall break down the mountains, and the valleys shall not be found.

23 He shall command the great deep, and it shall be driven back into the north countries, and the islands shall become one land;

24 And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided.

25 And the Lord, even the Savior, shall stand in the midst of his people, and shall reign over all flesh.

D&C 133 (emphasis added)

While obviously not "doctrinal", the word "divided" in verse 24 is cross-referenced to Genesis 10:25 (the Peleg verse). So again, LDS who simply study the issue by looking at their scriptures and the words of Prophets and Church publications will only be told that this refers to a physical division (while also being told that it does not refer to a political division).

[KevinG]

Great! Next thing you know someones gonna tell me the earth wasn't created in 7 days.

[Zakuska]

How so? It really does seem to be referring to a physical division:

While obviously not "doctrinal", the word "divided" in verse 24 is cross-referenced to Genesis 10:25 (the Peleg verse). So again, LDS who simply study the issue by looking at their scriptures and the words of Prophets and Church publications will only be told that this refers to a physical division (while also being told that it does not refer to a political division).

My bad... i didn't read quite that far.

I was refering to this simplistic view...

“The dividing of the earth was not an act of division by the inhabitants of the earth by tribes and peoples, but a breaking asunder of the continents, thus dividing the land surface and creating the Eastern Hemisphere and Western Hemisphere. By looking at a wall map of the world, you will discover how the land surface along the northern and southern coast of the American Hemisphere and Europe and Africa has the appearance of having been together at one time."

Edited October 12, 2011 by Zakuska

[Franktalk]

The details of continental drift may vary, but none of that changes the fact that Pangea broke up hundreds of millions of years ago. Science can certainly distinguish between 200 million years and 4 thousand years. That is a difference of five orders of magnitude. Even Lester King, with his crackpot "expanding earth" hypothesis, didn't believe it all happened within the span of a few years in 2200 BC. Moreover, King's ideas have been disproven in countless ways, including by modern GPS devices and seismic data which prove the existence of crust subduction. His book was universally dismissed by the mainstream scientific community.

Yes he is dismissed by many. That is sad to see. There have been many dismissed before him, let me list couple.

J Harlen Bretz

Ole Christensen Rømer

Daniel Shechtman

[thesometimesaint]

cinepro:

I'm SO OLD I remember when the theory of Continental Drift was still gaining traction. It is well established science now. To say that Joseph Smith, let alone the ancients knew about and accepted it is a pure Post Hoc rationalization.

[Sevenbak]

Well, it is in the Bible, and it has been "consistently proclaimed in official Church publications", so for those who study what the Church teaches on the issue, it might be a little confusing...

Excellent references. In addition to the OT study manuals and the guide to the Scriptures, and the Ensign, the D&C Institute manual speaks to this as well. It's correlated, accepted teachings of the church. I know it goes against accepted science, but so does the divinity and resurrection of Christ, and a host of other truths we adhere to. I don't worry about it. Accepted science changes. Here's the CES D&C manual.

http://institute.lds.org/manuals/doctrine-and-covenants-institute-student-manual/dc-in-131-133.asp

"D&C 133:23–24 . Will the Continents Be Rejoined?

Genesis indicates that in the early history of the world the land masses were united. Moses recorded that one of the great-great-grandsons of Shem was named Peleg (a Hebrew word meaning division) because “in his days was the earth divided” ( Genesis 10:25 ). Many scholars have passed this reference off as meaning some sort of cultural or political division, but modern prophets have taught that this statement should be taken literally.

An article published early in the history of the Church under the direction of the Prophet Joseph Smith stated: “The Eternal God hath declared that the great deep shall roll back into the north countries and that the land of Zion and the land of Jerusalem shall be joined together, as they were before they were divided in the days of Peleg. No wonder the mind starts at the sound of the last days!” (“The Last Days,” Evening and Morning Star, Feb. 1833, p. 1.)

President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “If . . . the earth is to be restored as it was in the beginning, then all the land surface will again be in one place as it was before the days of Peleg, when this great division was accomplished. Europe, Africa, and the islands of the sea including Australia, New Zealand, and other places in the Pacific must be brought back and joined together as they were in the beginning.” ( Answers to Gospel Questions, 5:74.)

In an introduction to a book on continental drift , a scientist writes:

“Formerly, most scientists regarded the earth as rigid and the continents as fixed, but now the surface of the earth is seen as slowly deformable and the continents as ‘rafts’ floating on a ‘sea’ of denser rock. The continents have repeatedly collided and joined, repeatedly broken and separated in different patterns, and, very likely, they have grown larger in the process.

“This scientific revolution, as others before it, was long in the making, but it was not until the late 1960s that it began to succeed. At a meeting of the world’s geophysicists in August of 1971, it was made clear that the notion of continental drift, which had been heresy only a few years before, had become the orthodoxy of the great majority.” ( Continents Adrift, preface.)

Though the time of this division of the land is placed much earlier by scientists than by the biblical chronology, the idea of one land mass is widely accepted. This revelation in Doctrine and Covenants 133 declares that sometime in the future that geographical unity will be restored."

As I read D&C 133, I see continental swift, not drift.

[Cobalt-70]

An article published early in the history of the Church under the direction of the Prophet Joseph Smith stated: “The Eternal God hath declared that the great deep shall roll back into the north countries and that the land of Zion and the land of Jerusalem shall be joined together, as they were before they were divided in the days of Peleg. No wonder the mind starts at the sound of the last days!” (“The Last Days,” Evening and Morning Star, Feb. 1833, p. 1.)

...

“Formerly, most scientists regarded the earth as rigid and the continents as fixed, but now the surface of the earth is seen as slowly deformable and the continents as ‘rafts’ floating on a ‘sea’ of denser rock. The continents have repeatedly collided and joined, repeatedly broken and separated in different patterns, and, very likely, they have grown larger in the process.

“This scientific revolution, as others before it, was long in the making, but it was not until the late 1960s that it began to succeed. At a meeting of the world’s geophysicists in August of 1971, it was made clear that the notion of continental drift, which had been heresy only a few years before, had become the orthodoxy of the great majority.” ( Continents Adrift, preface.)

Though the time of this division of the land is placed much earlier by scientists than by the biblical chronology, the idea of one land mass is widely accepted. This revelation in Doctrine and Covenants 133 declares that sometime in the future that geographical unity will be restored."

As I read D&C 133, I see continental swift, not drift.

D&C 133 does not describe continental drift. It describes the waters of the ocean receding to the north, so that the ocean floor becomes land joining the continents and the islands. This is obviously not to be taken literally. To us it just means, metaphorically, that the world will be united as one kingdom under Jesus.

[Sevenbak]

D&C 133 does not describe continental drift. It describes the waters of the ocean receding to the north, so that the ocean floor becomes land joining the continents and the islands. This is obviously not to be taken literally. To us it just means, metaphorically, that the world will be united as one kingdom under Jesus.

Disagree. "geographical unity will be restored" This doesn't mean metaphorically.

[Flyonthewall]

If God did divide the continents in 2200 bc, by doing a rubic's cube manuever on them, what evidence would be left behind that we could interpret to arrive at that conclusion? What footprint would be left behind if God said: "continent, move thither" and the continent moved?

[blackstrap]

In the days of Peleg was the earth divided. Lets assume Peleg's days were his lifetime and that he lived for about 200 years. If the continents separated at the beginning of his life and moved to roughly their current position over about 200 years then how far would they have moved per year and would that movement been noticable to the inhabitants ie. daily earthquakes?? A movement of 4000 miles over 200 years would give an average of about 300 feet /day.

The interesting thing to me is that both science and the Bible seem to concur that the earth was one land mass at one time in the past. The question begging starts there.

[Ron Beron]

It is quite possible that the division was NOT geological, but social. Peleg means division and is used in Ps. 55:9 (55:9 Confuse them,O Lord! Frustrate their plans!For I see violence and conflict in the city.) to illustrate a division of language. Given the proximity of this passage to the following passage of Babal and the confusion of language it makes total sense.

[Calm]

What I don't understand is why those closest to the alleged event interpreted it as a division of people/nations and not land.

[mfbukowski]

He is of the opinion that sea floor spreading and plate tectonics make more questions than the theories explain.... It may be that the earth actually expanded in the past. There may be some kind of phase change in the material in the core or mantle.

Oh yeah, Much better.

[shalamabobbi]

If God did divide the continents in 2200 bc, by doing a rubic's cube manuever on them, what evidence would be left behind that we could interpret to arrive at that conclusion? What footprint would be left behind if God said: "continent, move thither" and the continent moved?

In the days of Peleg was the earth divided. Lets assume Peleg's days were his lifetime and that he lived for about 200 years. If the continents separated at the beginning of his life and moved to roughly their current position over about 200 years then how far would they have moved per year and would that movement been noticable to the inhabitants ie. daily earthquakes?? A movement of 4000 miles over 200 years would give an average of about 300 feet /day.

The interesting thing to me is that both science and the Bible seem to concur that the earth was one land mass at one time in the past. The question begging starts there.

The most obvious evidence is the Hawaiian Islands and Emperor Seamounts. Current scientific understanding is they were created by the plate moving over a hot spot while YECs explain it by a crack with simultaneous formation. The problem for the YEC view, even if you want to ignore the basic physics of matter and propose that radiological clocks are meaningless, is that there is a linear age progression from one end to the other ending at the Big Island of Hawaii. How would that happen? And why the discernible difference in erosion between the Hawaiian Islands if they were created simultaneously?

This is the other half of Nevins' argument (see point #15). Dr. Hovind has botched it further by asserting that only a few thousand year's worth of sediment is on the ocean floor! In the case of the Atlantic Ocean, the sediment varies in thickness. The thinnest sediment is near the Mid-Atlantic Ridge where new sea floor is currently being generated. That is to say, sediment thickness there is zero. The thickest sediment hugs the continental margins, which certainly have more than a few thousand years of accumulation. Try around 150 million year's worth! Funny, that the measured rate of sea floor spreading, when extrapolated backwards in time, gives the same age for the Atlantic sea floor as does radiometric dating. Funny, how the sediment gets thicker and thicker as one moves away from the sea floor spreading zone! That is, the farther we get from the Mid-Atlantic ridge the thicker the sediment tends to get; that thickness correlates with increased age of the sea floor as determined by radiometric dating as well as the known rate at which the Atlantic is widening. (Funny, how Dr. Hovind always comes up with "a few thousand years" no matter what we are looking at!)

What are the odds of such a triple "coincidence" occurring? It boggles the mind! It's easy to see why scientists "bet" on an old-earth. And what about those magnetic stripes on the Atlantic sea floor? If that ocean floor is indeed spreading, then the thickness of those stripes and their distance from the Mid-Atlantic Ridge preserve a chronological record of magnetic field reversals. When those distances and widths are divided by the sea floor spreading rate, do we get a match with the magnetic reversal chronology based on the radiometric dating of continental rocks? Yes, we do!

Here is another interesting but little known fact. Mathematical calculations done by Dan McKenzie in 1967 indicated that an ocean floor, spreading at a few inches per year from a rift which adds new material, would cool and contract. It would sink deeper into the mantle as it contracted. "The process is so undeviating that there is a striking relationship between the age of the sea floor and the depth of water covering it." (Miller, 1983, p.122)

John Sclater and his students at Scripps Institution of Oceanography, La Jolla, California, put McKenzie's theory to the test in 1971. They gathered up every scrap of data on the age and depth of the Pacific sea floor. McKenzie's theory was confirmed! The increasing depths of the older portions of the Pacific floor were a result of thermal contraction. Plate tectonics even explains the basic facts about the depth of the Pacific!

see Young-earth proof #21:

http://www.talkorigi...wgood-yea2.html

Edited October 13, 2011 by shalamabobbi

[thesometimesaint]

But grandma what big teeth you have. The better to eat those nice muffins with my dear.

http://www.rawstory....-thought-study/

Edited October 13, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[Cobalt-70]

Disagree. "geographical unity will be restored" This doesn't mean metaphorically.

That's why I said "to us" (people who are not ignorant of modern science yet still regard the D&C section as scripture) the scripture is metaphorical. I can't speak for the writer of the CES manual.

[Cobalt-70]

In the days of Peleg was the earth divided. Lets assume Peleg's days were his lifetime and that he lived for about 200 years. If the continents separated at the beginning of his life and moved to roughly their current position over about 200 years then how far would they have moved per year and would that movement been noticable to the inhabitants ie. daily earthquakes?? A movement of 4000 miles over 200 years would give an average of about 300 feet /day.

The interesting thing to me is that both science and the Bible seem to concur that the earth was one land mass at one time in the past. The question begging starts there.

If the earth were to have moved that fast, most of the earth's crust would have been molten by the end of the 200 years, and the oceans would probably have evaporated.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Cobalt-70

[JRM]

This, I believe is clearly an example of someone that was wrong who was in the First Presidency speaking in General Conference?:

"In the course of time from the creation, in the days of Peleg (Genesis 10:16, JST), or about the year 2200 B.C., Just prior to the confusion of the languages, the single continent of land that had continued from creation was divided to produce the hemispheres as we now know them. But notwithstanding this, the geographic location of the Garden of Eden was made known to the Prophet Joseph Smith by revelation as here in the land of America, in Jackson County, Missouri, with Independence as the center place."

--- Alvin R. Dyer, First Presidency, Conference Report, October 1968, pp. 106-110

Ooh my.

You've opened my eyes!!!

Let us throw out Christianity and the bible now. Great floods cannot be true...

I thought this was a Christian-based discussion board....