mfbukowski Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 If the continents separated in 2200 BC, then over which body of water did the Jaredites travel to get to the New World?The inescapable conclusion, even for a literalist, is that the division of the earth must be referring to something else, ie: political/cultural/linguistic divisions.
altersteve Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 The inescapable conclusion, even for a literalist, is that the division of the earth must be referring to something else, ie: political/cultural/linguistic divisions.ExactlyThe problem with a Latter-day Saint taking the Bible literally is that we know that the Bible is not complete. If we take it literally, that would negate the possibility of any future revelations concerning topics like this.
Ron Beron Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 In my view the continents seperated 2200 BC as the Bible seems to indicate. I know enough about modern theories to know they are often based on the flimsiest of assumptions. Therefore, if the scriptures say one thing and scientists/geologists say another I'll go with the scriptures and that's all there is to it.So...what has your donkey said lately?
mfbukowski Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 So...what has your donkey said lately?When my donkey talks, he always makes an a$$ of himself.
Franktalk Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 Nobody doubts that, but why wouldn't God use natural processes? It is a wicked and adulterous generation who seek out a sign. If the universe did back flips, I think clearly that would be a "sign" and the world would be converted instantly.I don't think that's the plan. God gave us a brain for a reason.Why are people so stuck on the notion that natural processes are required? Do you need to have a sense as to how it works? Then explain to me photon entanglement? Then explain to me why energy and the lot change in small steps? We have great mysteries in nature today that are unexplained why can't you accept some more unexplained events? If God gave you a brain then please explain the process of photon entanglement? Or develop a test for dark matter. If however your brain has limits then embrace the limits and move along. Why must you lower God to things you understand? Do you think you are equal to God? What is natural to you and what is natural to God may be two different sets of processes.
thesometimesaint Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 Franktalk:Just because I don't know the answer doesn't obligate me to accept a Supernatural one.http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap111009.html
shalamabobbi Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 (edited) Why are people so stuck on the notion that natural processes are required?Did not Job remind us that God has set bounds?Do you need to have a sense as to how it works?It appeals to some of us, but I guess science/math is not for everybody.Then explain to me photon entanglement?Two photons in love. When one dies the other commits suicide. What is it you don't understand?Then explain to me why energy and the lot change in small steps?The wave nature of matter at the extremely small scale requires certain spacings so that the waves end at whole multiples and don't cancel themselves out. They can only change energy and hence wavelength by emission or absorption of a photon energy packet which has to correspond to the next smaller or next larger spacing of a wavelength.We have great mysteries in nature today that are unexplained why can't you accept some more unexplained events?Brain - switch it off and leave it off. God will love you if you do..If God gave you a brainStill a hypothesis for some..please explain the process of photon entanglement?If you recall relativity teaches that as an object approaches light speed distance shrinks. In the limit it shrinks to zip, nada. Two photons are, in their frame, unseparated and no time has passed from the time they are emitted to the time they are absorbed.Or develop a test for dark matter.The space between the ears of a YEC..If however your brain has limits then embrace the limits and move along.Embrace your limits, don't strive to move beyond. Seems rather counter to the human, God given spirit within us..Why must you lower God to things you understand?God is raising us to things He understands..Do you think you are equal to God?Not yet, but that is His work and His glory..What is natural to you and what is natural to God may be two different sets of processes.True, but the more knowledge we gain in this life the greater our advantage in the world to come and it will rise with us in the resurrection. Or now that you are LDS will you continue to limit yourself to traditional Christian thinking? Edited October 16, 2011 by shalamabobbi 1
mfbukowski Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 (edited) Why are people so stuck on the notion that natural processes are required? Do you need to have a sense as to how it works? Then explain to me photon entanglement? Then explain to me why energy and the lot change in small steps? We have great mysteries in nature today that are unexplained why can't you accept some more unexplained events? If God gave you a brain then please explain the process of photon entanglement? Or develop a test for dark matter. If however your brain has limits then embrace the limits and move along. Why must you lower God to things you understand? Do you think you are equal to God? What is natural to you and what is natural to God may be two different sets of processes.The question is, why would God violate the laws of the universe he himself has set up? He wouldn't.The other question is, of course he knows infinitely more about what those laws are and how to use them than we are; what appears to us to be "supernatural" I am sure simply uses natural process we don't yet understand. We are like neolithic hunter-gathers suddenly shown a star-trek holodeck or perhaps even just a modern TV- we think such things are "supernatural", but they are just everyday natural principles to God.I think God is smart enough to reveal himself to his children in ways we can understand- eventually - and does have to rely on truly "supernatural" events - why would he? There are laws of the universe. They are mysterious enough as they are. I think this is a pretty amazing world just as it is without God making all these laws and then ignoring them.Dark matter for example is not really "dark"- it is more like "transparent"- it doesn't interact with light. Is spirit matter "dark matter"?I don't know, but I do know there IS "spirit matter", or at least those words to express the concept.That concept is the tip of the iceberg for amazing discoveries we can't remotely even conceive yet. But I am convinced they are "natural". Why would we have that revelation about spirit matter if it wasn't true, and pointing to principles yet unknown? It is just a hint - a glimmer of what God has in store to teach us.It's not an issue of "lowering God"- it's an issue of raising mankind to the level of gods- the incredible gift he has given us of exaltation, that we can even now, learn some of those physical principles we will use in the eternities.I see it as if you are seeing the glass as half empty, that we cannot comprehend God, and I see it as half full- that we can at least even now learn the principles which will rise with us in the exaltation. Edited October 17, 2011 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Dang.I always do that. I just answer the post when I see it, instead of reading ahead.Then I find out that everyone else said the same thing, and I end up bringing up the tail end, "repeating" what everyone else said before I wrote it.grrrr
selek1 Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) And seeing monkeys at the zoo is disturbing because I feel such a kinship with them. I start crying & then they start crying and I want to get into their pens and set them free, because they are my brother from another mother.Given the enormous significance of your posts thus far (utter nonsense in three other threads thus far) I suspect there's more truth to this confession than either of us will be comfortable admitting.Instead of spammming us with nonsense in order to bolster your post-count, why not offer something of substance?Unless you post something both germane and substantive, you're far more likely to be banned out of hand than permitted to start new threads.Seems like a lot of effort to waste, don't you think? Edited October 17, 2011 by selek1
mfbukowski Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Given the enormous significance of your posts thus far (utter nonsense in three other threads thus far) I suspect there's more truth to this confession than either of us will be comfortable admitting.Instead of spammming us with nonsense in order to bolster your post-count, why not offer something of substance?Unless you post something both germane and substantive, you're far more likely to be banned out of hand than permitted to start new threads.Seems like a lot of effort to waste, don't you think?I am very confused. This post quotes Khaz- but the link doesn't go anywhere and his comment is not on this thread.Why would you quote a post that isn't even from this thread?
Ron Beron Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 When my donkey talks, he always makes an a$$ of himself.I wanted to use that word, but you said it better.
shalamabobbi Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 I am very confused. This post quotes Khaz- but the link doesn't go anywhere and his comment is not on this thread.Why would you quote a post that isn't even from this thread?Khaz did have a post that got removed completely which means his entire account was deleted I think.
shalamabobbi Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Faith.If the scenario you hypothesize is correct, then it would require more faith to believe these things. If there were tons of evidences and all the science lined up, it would require less faith.Since God really, really likes faith, what better way to test us?There are two incidents(that I am aware of) that might be interpreted to support this idea. The incident where the records in the cave were deposited:http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=13&num=1&id=338and the incident depicted in the movie "The 17 Miracles" where a woman receives jerky from a man in a cave dwelling to share with the camp and returns to thank the man but the cave is no longer there.These sort of experiences could be interpreted to mean that there is less to mortal reality that is real than perhaps we suppose.I have not always been completely opposed to this idea but let's follow it to see where it leads us. Replacing varve layers, resetting C14 there and in tree rings, not such a big deal.Leaving artifacts behind of civilizations that were really destroyed by a flood so that it looks as though they existed after the event when they really didn't, perhaps no big deal.The geologic column a fabrication providing a completely naturalistic plausible evolutionary scenario for the formation and diversity of life, no big deal.But now we come to the genome.The problem now is that we have God placing false evidence into the genome to look like evolution occurred when it *really didn't occur*.So that means in reality that the genome has no real significance. But when scientists study it and are able to isolate parts of it as to effect this contradicts that supposition.So the idea of changing evidence for the purpose of faith falls apart.
selek1 Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 I am very confused. This post quotes Khaz- but the link doesn't go anywhere and his comment is not on this thread.Why would you quote a post that isn't even from this thread?The moderators apparently cleaned out his attempts at bolstering his post-count.
JeremyOrbe-Smith Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) The late Howard C. Stutz (BYU teacher with a Ph.D in genetics), before his passing, completed a book called "Let the Earth Bring Forth" dealing with evolution and scripture. Looks fascinating. Edited October 17, 2011 by JeremyOrbe-Smith
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