The Nicene Creed

[Zakuska]

The Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

http://www.reformed....nts/nicene.html

You know I could completely accept this as it is except for the bolded parts.

When it says "being of one substance with the Father" what exactly does that mean?

Being of the same kind of substance as the father? Like fire and flame?

Or is it one fire and all three are the fire altogether undistinguishable from the others?

The second bolded part for obvious reasons.

Whats intresting about this is the Holy Ghost is worshipped together with the Father and the Son. Thats Worshipping a threesome.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Zakuska

[Damien the Leper]

The Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

http://www.reformed....nts/nicene.html

You know I could completely accept this as it is except for the bolded parts.

When it says "being of one substance with the Father" what exactly does that mean?

Being of the same kind of substance as the father? Like fire and flame?

Or is it one fire and all three are the fire altogether undistinguishable from the others?

The second bolded part for obvious reasons.

Whats intresting about this is the Holy Ghost is worshipped together with the Father and the Son. Thats Worshipping a threesome.

What I find odd is the endorsement of (if not a little watered down) the Patripassian heresy. Patri= Father and Passian= Passion. In other words, the Father's passion is what saved us.

I find this theology problematic due to it's inability to distinctively define the persons of the Christian godhead as spoken of in scripture.

Don't misinterpret the holy apostolic and catholic church for what is the RCC or any one of its variants. They are far from the same. The terms traditionally denote the Church of God and the Body of Believers.

[Damien the Leper]

Try tackling this creed...Most Mormons I have seen read this cringe and possibly want to scratch out their eyes.

The Athanasian Creed

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into h***, rose again the third day from the dead;

39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

42. and shall give account of their own works.

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

[Calm]

What I find odd is the endorsement of (if not a little watered down) the Patripassian heresy. Patri= Father and Passian= Passion. In other words, the Father's passion is what saved us.

more info please

[etana]

The Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

http://www.reformed....nts/nicene.html

You know I could completely accept this as it is except for the bolded parts.

When it says "being of one substance with the Father" what exactly does that mean?

Being of the same kind of substance as the father? Like fire and flame?

Or is it one fire and all three are the fire altogether undistinguishable from the others?

The second bolded part for obvious reasons.

Whats intresting about this is the Holy Ghost is worshipped together with the Father and the Son. Thats Worshipping a threesome.

I agree with this including the bolded parts. Of course i may understand them differently than some.

[mfbukowski]

"Substance" is imaginary immaterial "stuff" that makes up all things. It doesn't exist of course. Both of those statements are my opinion- just to make that clear.

"Catholic" in this context actually means "universal". I believe in the universal church- ie: a church for all people in unity- of course in my opinion, that is not the present church known as the "Catholic Church".

So really the only thing I disagree with is that pesky word "substance".

Usually, substance is distinguished from "accidents" which mean appearances. So theoretically, two different things might be the same allegedly, in substance but differ in appearance.

So the main substance of metal is "metalness". It's kind of like a Platonic form. It's also kind of like a things "nature". Of course these are abstractions and one must pretend that abstractions are more real than things in order for this to make sense.

So the difference between lead and gold - both the same in substance- is the appearance- color, etc.

So all one has to do to change lead into gold was change it's accidents- or appearances- which was the main object of alchemy. Similarly, "trans-substant-iation was thought to be retaining the substance of Christ's flesh, and blood, by merely changing its appearances- it was the same thing, it's just that it now looked like bread and wine.

Maybe I got that backwards but you get the idea. It retained it's appearance as bread and wine, but it's substance was changed. That's it. It was substantially changed but retained its appearances.

So the Father and Son are of one substance or Being or Nature while being two persons.

That is the theory- you can decide for yourself if that makes sense.

To me of course, it doesn't.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/substance/

Edited September 24, 2011 by mfbukowski

[Commander]

Can anyone ive me a nice summary of the goings-on at the Nicene Creed debate? Didn't they debate the issue of God and then decide that it was 3 in 1?

[Calm]

An LDS board is probably not the best place to ask. Are you asking for a theological viewpoint or a historical one?

[diglot]

When it says "being of one substance with the Father" what exactly does that mean?

Being of the same kind of substance as the father? Like fire and flame?

Or is it one fire and all three are the fire altogether undistinguishable from the others?

Not to be a nitpicker but technically this is the Niceno-Constantinople Creed of 381, not the creed of the Nicene Council of 325.

In the phrase "being of one substance with the Father", the bold part is derived from the word homoousios. There was quite a deliberate bit of thought behind picking this word, one reason being that it was known that Arius rejected the use of this word due to the fact that he thought it meant there was a materialistic division in God. Interestingly enough, Constantine ended up endorsing the use of homoousios, though he claimed it did not mean there was a material division within God (or any sort of change that could be construed in terms of corporeality).

To understand the use of homoousios in the creed, it needs to be seen as an expansion of, or supplement to, the earlier phrase - "from the ousia of the Father." Some, like Origen, understood this phrase to mean something essentially the same as a human birth (and thus those who used it were teaching that God was corporeal). But at Nicaea, the term was used for the most part to convey that the generation of the Son was different to the generation of creation, i.e., not in a corporeal way, nor in a way that took something from the Father.

So, in a nutshell, the phrase "being of one substance with the Father", was used to denote that the Son was composed of the same divine essence/substance as the Father because he came out of the Father. So they were seen as from the same divine essence/substance, while being distinct from one another.

A think a good analogy to see the use of this phrase is an earlier phrase from the creed, "light from light." An analogy some of the church fathers used (Athanasius?) was of light coming from the sun. In this analogy, the sun is the Father, and the light is the Son. Just as the rays of light are derived from the sun, the Son is derived from the Father. Just as the sun can not exist without giving off light, so too the Father can not exist without the Son. So if the sun is eternal, then the accompanying light is also eternal.

[diglot]

Can anyone ive me a nice summary of the goings-on at the Nicene Creed debate? Didn't they debate the issue of God and then decide that it was 3 in 1?

The council of Nicaea was about God, but only insofar as to the question of the relationship of the Son to the Father. Was the Son of the exact same substance to God the Father, or of a similar substance. The issue of the Holy Spirit didn't really have anything to do with it. In fact, the Nicene Creed of 325 only says this about the Holy Spirit: "And [we believe] in the Holy Ghost."

[mfbukowski]

Can anyone ive me a nice summary of the goings-on at the Nicene Creed debate? Didn't they debate the issue of God and then decide that it was 3 in 1?

This isn't too bad a summary

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Nicene_Creed

Since I am so opinionated on the subject, and I have posted so much on the idea of "substance", I think I will pretty much stay out of this one.

Suffice it to say that the whole concept is pretty untenable from a modern philosophical perspective.

Edited September 25, 2011 by mfbukowski

[Ahab]

The Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

http://www.reformed....nts/nicene.html

You know I could completely accept this as it is except for the bolded parts.

Try it with this understanding:

The substance is something like DNA, or whatever it is that makes them, and us, the same kind of being.

The term "catholic" is meant to refer to a "universal" church, with each "branch" or "ward" church being part of the same "universal" church, and with the Church on Earth being the same church (or a part of the same Church) as the Church which is in heaven.

The term "apostolic" is meant to refer to the fact that "apostles" play a key role in the organization of the "catholic" church.

Whats intresting about this is the Holy Ghost is worshipped together with the Father and the Son. Thats Worshipping a threesome.

Yes, but each person who is God is the one and only God with "God" consisting of individual persons with each one of them being that God.

Personally, I don't have a problem with any of that part of it. I just disagree with the part that says he, and they, have no "body, parts, or passions".

[mfbukowski]

The council of Nicaea was about God, but only insofar as to the question of the relationship of the Son to the Father. Was the Son of the exact same substance to God the Father, or of a similar substance. The issue of the Holy Spirit didn't really have anything to do with it. In fact, the Nicene Creed of 325 only says this about the Holy Spirit: "And [we believe] in the Holy Ghost."

I am not going to hold you to this, but how would one tell the difference?

Another way to ask the question would be to ask what was the thought process which lead to the answer?

Just curious. I have stated my opinion previously- I am just interested in what you know about the process.

Edited September 25, 2011 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

Try it with this understanding:

The substance is something like DNA, or whatever it is that makes them, and us, the same kind of being;.

I don't think if someone has to change the fundamental meaning of the terms used that it is accurate to say one is in agreement.

[TrueBlue?]

The Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

http://www.reformed....nts/nicene.html

You know I could completely accept this as it is except for the bolded parts.

When it says "being of one substance with the Father" what exactly does that mean?

Being of the same kind of substance as the father? Like fire and flame?

Or is it one fire and all three are the fire altogether undistinguishable from the others?

The second bolded part for obvious reasons.

Whats intresting about this is the Holy Ghost is worshipped together with the Father and the Son. Thats Worshipping a threesome.

I think that we are all made of the same substance. Spirit matter. I think Justin Martyr put it eloquently when he used the example you touched upon when he used fire. Yes we are all co-eternal with the Father in the sense we never had not existed, but in different stages we take on different forms, so if we are to become as the father we must be made of the same substance, Being made of the same substance doesn't mean we have to be Him. I do believe that those who created the Nicene creed saw it that way when they say substance, I believe we were made of the same substance, but obviously we are separate beings.

[Calm]

I do believe that those who created the Nicene creed saw it that way when they say substance

You mean they believed that God and man were made of the same substance, spiritually speaking? If so, why do you believe they believed that?

If you mean they meant that the Father, the Son and the Spirit were made of the same substance, why would that make them one Being since it does not make man one being when we are all made of one substance (and there is no evidence that I am aware of where the creators of the creed believed that man was one being).

Edited September 25, 2011 by calmoriah

[cdowis]

The council of Nicaea was about God, but only insofar as to the question of the relationship of the Son to the Father. Was the Son of the exact same substance to God the Father, or of a similar substance. The issue of the Holy Spirit didn't really have anything to do with it. In fact, the Nicene Creed of 325 only says this about the Holy Spirit: "And [we believe] in the Holy Ghost."

You are terribly mistaken. Any discussion of the theology of the creed is moot.

The council of Nicea was a political council called by the emporer Constantine, it was all about power. The Nicene Creed was a political document approved by the emporer, and he punished those who voted against it with banishment.

The historic Christian church payed an enormous price for the protection provided by the emporer, and they are still paying that price.

Edited September 25, 2011 by cdowis

[diglot]

You are terribly mistaken. Any discussion of the theology of the creed is moot.

The council of Nicea was a political council called by the emporer Constantine, it was all about power. The Nicene Creed was a political document approved by the emporer, and he punished those who voted against it with banishment.

The historic Christian church payed an enormous price for the protection provided by the emporer, and they are still paying that price.

Wait, what are you saying that I was mistaken about? You quoted me saying that the Council of Nicaea was not about the Holy Spirit and then said that I was mistaken. I'm definitely not mistaken about that.

And no, the Council of Nicaea was not all about power. That blanket statement is too simplistic. Perhaps to Constantine is was mainly about power. Though, I think it is better to say it was about unity in the empire than "power". But to the participants of the council, and the rest of lay Christianity, it certainly was about theology.