The Shortened Days Of The End Times

[jo1952]

could Revelation 8:12

mean that a third of the world is effected for just a third of the day and all night?

That's an interesting idea. It could be used as a sign in this way. And also, it falls in with the other thirds of things being effected by some of the other trumpeting angels. The only problem I see, though, is that it is not clear if the death and destruction being caused by the other angels is all happening to only one spot compromised of the same third part of the world. We would also need to consider if this is someplace where the Elect are NOT in order for them to be protected from what is going on. Good point!

Would this scenario, in your mind, still allow for a full 1,260 days?

Thank you,

jo

[Franktalk]

We know this how?

Lehi

3 1/2 years = time times and half a time

3 1/2 years = 42 months

1260 days =42 months = 3 1/2 years

Rev 12:14

Dan 9:27

Rev 11:2

Rev 13:5

Rev 12:6

Rev 11:3

And also some reference to Noah but I did not look them up.

http://www.harvardhouse.com/prophetictech/new/rev_11v2-3.htm

[Maidservant]

Well, as far as Revelation 8, I get the impression that these horrors are man-made, not God sent. But in any case, for verse 12, I think it only says regarding their ability to shine (or our ability to be able to see the shining) . . . not an actual change in hours.

I always felt like we have the fulfillment of some of the "faster time" stuff (even if more legend than doctrine) in the way we are living our lives, and how hurried we are, and how time is just going so fast . . . from January to Christmas feels like 3 weeks nowadays. That is a brain/perception difference, I think, not astronomical changes.

But I don't know .

I think the Matthew passage is pretty clear that it is not about geology, but about how long God will allow the tribulations to ravage humanity before he changes the situation for good.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Maidservant

[jo1952]

Well, as far as Revelation 8, I get the impression that these horrors are man-made, not God sent. But in any case, for verse 12, I think it only says regarding their ability to shine (or our ability to be able to see the shining) . . . not an actual change in hours.

I always felt like we have the fulfillment of some of the "faster time" stuff (even if more legend than doctrine) in the way we are living our lives, and how hurried we are, and how time is just going so fast . . . from January to Christmas feels like 3 weeks nowadays. That is a brain/perception difference, I think, not astronomical changes.

But I don't know .

I think the Matthew passage is pretty clear that it is not about geology, but about how long God will allow the tribulations to ravage humanity before he changes the situation for good.

Hi Maidservant!

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. Boy, can I identify with how we perceive time speeding up! As I have gotten older, entire years fly by, where as a child, time moved much more slowly in my perception of it.

You may be on to something in that with an inability to see either the light from the sun, or the light from the stars and the moon, that there will effectively be total blackness. I don't see, though, how this would negatively effect man's ability to still use weaponry. At the very least, I still think that some type of supernatural intervention is going to take place which will limit the number of hours which can be used for the purposes of war. However, if this is not an actual shortening of the number of hours in a day, it could be that some unseen force will prevent the use of weapons for eight hours each day.

Another way I look at all of this is that I don't think it would have been necessary to teach us that the days would need to be shortened (whether a person thinks this means the length of a day, or the number of days) in order to save the Elect if the 1260 days was already representative of the result of shortening the days.

Best regards,

jo

[volgadon]

I don't see the need for this absolutely forced and baroque interpretation when "days" is clearly used elsewhere in the Bible to indicate a period of time. Smacks of the sort of hyper-literalism president Joseph F. Smith warned of.

[LeSellers]

3 1/2 years = time times and half a time

3 1/2 years = 42 months

1260 days =42 months = 3 1/2 years

Rev 12:14

Dan 9:27

Rev 11:2

Rev 13:5

Rev 12:6

Rev 11:3

I don't see the need for this absolutely forced and baroque interpretation when "days" is clearly used elsewhere in the Bible to indicate a period of time. Smacks of the sort of hyper-literalism president Joseph F. Smith warned of.

I have to assume the man of the two rivers was referring to Frank's note since he didn't identify to whom he was speaking, but I agree.

There is nothing within the Church that I can recall to support the "prophetic" 360-day year.

Lehi

[Franktalk]

I don't see the need for this absolutely forced and baroque interpretation when "days" is clearly used elsewhere in the Bible to indicate a period of time. Smacks of the sort of hyper-literalism president Joseph F. Smith warned of.

A repost. Please explain these verses without a change in the sun or earth?

A speeding up of the Earth on its axis is not a big deal to God. He has already stopped the rotation in days gone by. He has also backed up the rotation as well. All of the laws of physics that we are bound are not a limit to God.

Jos 10:12 Then spoke Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

Jos 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

Jos 10:14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.

2Ki 20:9 And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that he hath spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?

2Ki 20:10 And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees.

2Ki 20:11 And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.

We must not consider the laws of physics valid during a supernatural event. If God commanded the entire universe to reorder itself it would do so. I have performed some calculations on this and have found that if the radius of the Earth were to shrink approx 800 miles but keep the angular momentum the same the Earth would speed up so a day would be 16 hours long.

New

So let us make a list of all the things it says in the Bible that God says He did yet we won't believe.

God made man in His own image. Nope, evolution did it. And since evolution is not guided I guess God changed His image to match the happy mistake that turned out man.

God flooded the earth. Nope, must have been local or just some fancy way of talking about evil.

God stopped the earth from rotating. Nope, God does not do things like this. This literal way of reading what He says and allowing ourselves to take Him at His word just has to stop.

God had Moses gather the Jews from Egypt. Nope, no evidence of that. Just some allusion to a gathering of hearts.

What is next?

Christ died for our sins. Nope, just a story to give us comfort.

Where does it end with the refusal to accept scripture at face value?

Abraham was told he would have a child of promise. Did he wait or did he take matters into his own hands? Did God do what He said? Or is this another story that is not real but is written to give a message?

[thesometimesaint]

jo1952:

A God who doesn't follow his own rules would be capricious. Not exactly my idea of God.

Natural evolution seems to be the default position of God.

[shalamabobbi]

A repost. Please explain these verses without a change in the sun or earth?

A speeding up of the Earth on its axis is not a big deal to God. He has already stopped the rotation in days gone by. He has also backed up the rotation as well. All of the laws of physics that we are bound are not a limit to God.

Jos 10:12 Then spoke Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

Jos 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

Jos 10:14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.

2Ki 20:9 And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that he hath spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?

2Ki 20:10 And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees.

2Ki 20:11 And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.

We must not consider the laws of physics valid during a supernatural event. If God commanded the entire universe to reorder itself it would do so. I have performed some calculations on this and have found that if the radius of the Earth were to shrink approx 800 miles but keep the angular momentum the same the Earth would speed up so a day would be 16 hours long.

New

So let us make a list of all the things it says in the Bible that God says He did yet we won't believe.

God made man in His own image. Nope, evolution did it. And since evolution is not guided I guess God changed His image to match the happy mistake that turned out man.

God flooded the earth. Nope, must have been local or just some fancy way of talking about evil.

God stopped the earth from rotating. Nope, God does not do things like this. This literal way of reading what He says and allowing ourselves to take Him at His word just has to stop.

God had Moses gather the Jews from Egypt. Nope, no evidence of that. Just some allusion to a gathering of hearts.

What is next?

Christ died for our sins. Nope, just a story to give us comfort.

Where does it end with the refusal to accept scripture at face value?

Abraham was told he would have a child of promise. Did he wait or did he take matters into his own hands? Did God do what He said? Or is this another story that is not real but is written to give a message?

Each one of you hyper-literalists has your own interpretation of scripture. You with your short days, Rob with his hollow earth. It always seems to be the case that each of these various specific interpretations are shared by only the one individual who finds them compelling.

So we are left with a God who gives us scripture that no one properly understands save the one individual..

[Bond...James Bond]

I had asked this question in another thread where it has become buried. Since the thread was discussing evolution, I framed my question within the realm of evolution. However, my take on the shortened days, and the method I used to interpret what that will look like, is one I would like to get some feedback on. THEN, I would additionally like to see some responses on how those who believe in evolution would apply their belief to how the shortening of days may be accomplished.

Here, in entirety, was my original post:

**********************

Is evolution going to take care of shortening the days in the end times?

Matthew 24:22

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Revelation 8:12

And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

I take this as meaning that instead of 24 hours in a day, the days will be shortened to 16 hours. Thus, a third of the night and a third of the day as we now reckon it will be taken away.

So, will evolution cause this to happen? Or will an intervention of God need to take place? Or, perhaps, is this just a myth about what will happen in the future?

**********************

Thank you, and best regards,

jo

No. Evolution will not be the cause of the end times. Evolution will be the cause of the creation of millions of new species when everything except cockroaches and Cher is wiped out by the end times.

[Bond...James Bond]

Btw someone should consult their Tim Lahaye/Jerry Jenkins to see what they think about the 4th trumpet of Revelation.

[ERayR]

jo1952:

Natural evolution seems to be the default position of God.

For some things. In other areas it is not so obvious and certainly not proven.

[Franktalk]

Each one of you hyper-literalists has your own interpretation of scripture. You with your short days, Rob with his hollow earth. It always seems to be the case that each of these various specific interpretations are shared by only the one individual who finds them compelling.

So we are left with a God who gives us scripture that no one properly understands save the one individual..

If the literal interpretation is wrong then please explain Jos 10:12 - 14 and 2kin 20:9 - 11. Just what did happen in those two events?

"Israel defeats the Amorites and their allies, and the Lord casts stones from heaven upon them—The sun and moon stand still—Many kings and cities are destroyed—The Lord fought for Israel."

http://lds.org/scriptures/ot/josh/10?lang=eng

"Hezekiah’s life is lengthened fifteen years—The sun goes back ten degrees as a sign—Hezekiah praises and thanks the Lord."

http://lds.org/scriptures/ot/isa/38?lang=eng

I know what LDS.org says what do you say?

[shalamabobbi]

If the literal interpretation is wrong then please explain Jos 10:12 - 14 and 2kin 20:9 - 11. Just what did happen in those two events?

"Israel defeats the Amorites and their allies, and the Lord casts stones from heaven upon them—The sun and moon stand still—Many kings and cities are destroyed—The Lord fought for Israel."

http://lds.org/scrip...osh/10?lang=eng

"Hezekiah’s life is lengthened fifteen years—The sun goes back ten degrees as a sign—Hezekiah praises and thanks the Lord."

http://lds.org/scrip...isa/38?lang=eng

I know what LDS.org says what do you say?

I am referring to your interpretation of shortened days from the book of revelation. Stop acting like a rejection of your specific interpretation there means a rejection of every mention of a miracle within scripture.

We do not know by what means miracles are brought to pass. And since you cannot so much as accept the laws we are able to observe and study you have no business pontificating about those laws we cannot observe and study.

Did you see the movie the 17 miracles? There is one that occurs where the husband is trying to force his wife's return and goes to get her off of the train. He looks right at her and does not recognize her and moves on to continue his search for her.

How do you know whether that is the way the miracle of the sun returning 10 degrees happened or not? You don't. And neither do I.

Go ahead and remain anti science, anti knowledge, anti learning, anti thinking. In the end we shall see who fares better for their stance. Like Rob you are unwilling to understand anything until it is taught to you by the aliens on the front lawn that are willing to mock with you at the understanding of man. I wonder why the Lord was concerned about man's learning too much too early in the history of the world at the tower of babel if all his learning was worthless. You're too much Frank..

[Calm]

It seems to me one of the fundamental qualities of a miracle is the inability to predict it, whether the timing or the method. By its very nature if we understood those two things it likely wouldn't be considered a miracle.

Christ's resurrection had been foretold for how long, they had received specific instruction from Christ and those right there were still clueless.

So I don't see much value in trying to figure out a miracle before it happens. Instead prepare yourself to receive them and act on them when they come.

Edited September 29, 2011 by calmoriah

[volgadon]

I have to assume the man of the two rivers was referring to Frank's note since he didn't identify to whom he was speaking, but I agree.

There is nothing within the Church that I can recall to support the "prophetic" 360-day year.

Lehi

I primarily intended the idea of the hours in a day being shortened, but the "prophetic" year fits the bill too.

[jo1952]

I don't see the need for this absolutely forced and baroque interpretation when "days" is clearly used elsewhere in the Bible to indicate a period of time. Smacks of the sort of hyper-literalism president Joseph F. Smith warned of.

The Jews missed treating Daniel's very precise prophecy with "hyper-literalism" concerning the day that Jesus would enter the city of Jerusalem, which we now recognize as Palm Sunday, and it caused Jesus to weep. He wept because He knew that because they missed their day for interpreting scripture correctly, that the entire city of Jerusalem was then destined to be destroyed. It also caused God to declare blindness upon the Jews as to Jesus' true identity.

Regards,

jo

[Franktalk]

I did read of another view. It may be that the item which strikes the Earth before the Sun and the Moon are blocked out for 1/3 makes a cloud which covers 1/3 of planet. But that does not explain the shortened days.

[jo1952]

jo1952:

A God who doesn't follow his own rules would be capricious. Not exactly my idea of God.

Natural evolution seems to be the default position of God.

So far, I have seen no man prove that evolution is a correct interpretation of what they are observing. With this in mind, I am not inclined (as you are) to consider evolution as either being true or as being a default position of God.

Regards,

jo

[volgadon]

Shall we take a look at various "days" mentioned in the Bible?

[jo1952]

I have to assume the man of the two rivers was referring to Frank's note since he didn't identify to whom he was speaking, but I agree.

There is nothing within the Church that I can recall to support the "prophetic" 360-day year.

Lehi

I couldn't find anything that the Church teaches specifically about a prophetic year either. However, it is something I have encountered frequently in my studies beyond the boundaries of Church books. Here is a link to a simple overview. Jewish websites also offer more in-depth understanding of the prophetic year.

http://en.wikipedia..../Prophetic_Year

"The Coming Prince", written by Robert Anderson, gives a terrific study about the reckoning of days recorded in the Book of Daniel. I found his reasoning to be logical and well supported. In his study, he was able to use Daniel's Prophecy and came up with the exact day that Jesus entered Jerusalem (Palm Sunday). Very interesting reading.

Regards,

jo

[Franktalk]

Go ahead and remain anti science, anti knowledge, anti learning, anti thinking. In the end we shall see who fares better for their stance. Like Rob you are unwilling to understand anything until it is taught to you by the aliens on the front lawn that are willing to mock with you at the understanding of man. I wonder why the Lord was concerned about man's learning too much too early in the history of the world at the tower of babel if all his learning was worthless. You're too much Frank..

Gen 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men built.

Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

KJV

11:5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the sons of men built.11:6 And the Lord said, Behold, [there is] one race, and one lip of all, and they have begun to do this, and now nothing shall fail from them of all that they may have undertaken to do.

Septuagint

A little Bible lesson is in order. First of all Babylon is the spiritual seat of evil whereas Jerusalem is the seat of God. The men who would stay would remain under the influence of that evil spirit. The project they started would bind them to this spot which was directly opposite to the commandment to fill the Earth.

Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

Gen 9:7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.

God did not say all of you stay in Babylon.

Now in the KJV of Gen 11:5,6 it indicates that man will not be restrained in their imagination. This being centered around building the tower. It also may be referring to the imagined things due the the bad spiritual influence.

In the Septuagint it is more clear that the project of building the tower is the subject and projects of that nature would be built by man if they were to remain in Babylon.

Somehow you have related building an ancient tower with modern theories of science. Now that is a leap of faith.

[Maidservant]

The Jews missed treating Daniel's very precise prophecy with "hyper-literalism" concerning the day that Jesus would enter the city of Jerusalem, which we now recognize as Palm Sunday, and it caused Jesus to weep. He wept because He knew that because they missed their day for interpreting scripture correctly, that the entire city of Jerusalem was then destined to be destroyed. It also caused God to declare blindness upon the Jews as to Jesus' true identity.

Regards,

jo

I love the book of Daniel and it is one of my primary texts for teaching my children and for understanding the gospel, period.

However, I have to admit that I don't know anything about this, and I don't recall there being a whole lot at first glance about the first advent of the Savior (but maybe that's because I need a serious review). In any case, I am sure I am missing a lot of interpretive tools that would otherwise yield fascinating information from Daniel.

But, respectfully, I have a hard time believing that God/Jesus would provide a set-up to understanding (i.e. the exact day of Jesus entering the city) that would be so easy to fail by so many people with such dire consequences. God is much more ordinary than that. He would provide scripture for the purpose of a person being prepared in their heart for whenever he entered the city. If people refuse to heed these kind of scriptural entreaties, that is a cause for weeping.

But maybe I don't understand your post and you are more or less agreeing with this? That because the Jews were looking for a precise day and Jesus came on the "wrong" day, they couldn't receive him?

[shalamabobbi]

nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Yes, if I imagine to fly and it will not be restrained from me to do so, I will need to discover the principals of flight, the airfoil etc.

The verse implies the accretion of knowledge for that is the power to do what we imagine to do.

See how useful scriptural interpretation is? If provides hours of mindless assertion and counter assertion that leads nowhere.

Somehow you have related building an ancient tower with modern theories of science. Now that is a leap of faith.

Yes, it's called structural mechanics, a subdivision of civil engineering..

The "leap of faith" I take it is to be considered a slight by me? My patriarchal blessing says I have a special gift of faith, so maybe not..

[Franktalk]

The "leap of faith" I take it is to be considered a slight by me? My patriarchal blessing says I have a special gift of faith, so maybe not..

Here is a list of major players in scripture and the faith that they held.

Hebrews 11

¹Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

²For by it the elders obtained a good report.

³Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

⁴By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

⁵By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

⁶But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

⁷By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

⁸By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

⁹By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

¹⁰For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

¹¹Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

¹²Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

¹³These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

¹⁴For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

¹⁵And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

¹⁶But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

¹⁷By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

¹⁸Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

¹⁹Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

²⁰By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

²¹By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

²²By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

²³By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

²⁴By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

²⁵Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

²⁶Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

²⁷By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

²⁸Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

²⁹By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

³⁰By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

³¹By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

³²And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

³³Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

³⁴Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

³⁵Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

³⁶And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

³⁷They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

³⁸(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

³⁹And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

⁴⁰God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

I fail to see in here where God says faith in the knowledge of man will give you a good report. I would also point out that it says things made were made by the Word of God. I would also point out that it says that the things made were not made by things that do appear.

The shortened days in the Tribulation period are going to happen. Exactly what that is we sure don't know. For those who do experience the events I am sure that if they know scripture then they will praise God when the events happen. For all others I am sure they will assign any number of natural causes to the events. Man does have the ability to find causes for things even if they are in error.