Steel In The Book Of Mormon

[Rivers]

John from Mormon Expression considers steel to be the most problematic anachronism in the Book of Mormon. Anybody agree with this?

[Zakuska]

John from Mormon Expression considers steel to be the most problematic anachronism in the Book of Mormon. Anybody agree with this?

No more so than it does for the Bible.

Psalms 18:34

34 He teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.

2 Samuel 22:35

35 He teacheth my hands to war; so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.

Jeremiah 15:12

12 Shall iron break the northern iron and the steel?

Job 20:24

24 He shall flee from the iron weapon, and the bow of steel shall strike him through.

The technology was definately invented by then.

Ancient steel

Steel was known in antiquity, and may have been produced by managing bloomeries, iron-smelting facilities, where the bloom contained carbon.[17]

The earliest known production of steel is a piece of ironware excavated from an archaeological site in Anatolia (Kaman-Kalehoyuk) and is about 4,000 years old.[18] Other ancient steel comes from East Africa, dating back to 1400 BC.[19] In the 4th century BC steel weapons like the Falcata were produced in the Iberian Peninsula, while Noric steel was used by the Roman military.[20] The Chinese of the Warring States (403–221 BC) had quench-hardened steel,[21] while Chinese of the Han Dynasty (202 BC – 220 AD) created steel by melting together wrought iron with cast iron, gaining an ultimate product of a carbon-intermediate steel by the 1st century AD.[22][23] The Haya people of East Africa discovered a type of high-heat blast furnace which allowed them to forge carbon steel at 1,802 °C (3,276 °F) nearly 2,000 years ago.[24] This ability was not duplicated until centuries later in Europe during the Industrial Revolution.

Now... for the Americas he might have a point. However... Nephi and co. came from the Middle east right in the middle of all this steel production technology. So the probability is high.

I know of no streel for the Americas though.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Zakuska

[Robert F. Smith]

No more so than it does for the Bible.

Psalms 18:34 = 2 Samuel 22:35; Jeremiah 15:12, Job 20:24

In each of these instances, the word for "iron" is Hebrew barzel. But, the word for "steel" in each case is nechusha "bronze."

So we cannot depend on the KJV translation.

The technology was definately invented by then.

Yes. The Philistines were famous for it already in the time of the Judges, and the technology is carefully explained in chapter 5 of Richard Cowen, “Essays on Geology, History, and People” (in preparation for book Exploiting the Earth, forthcoming from Johns Hopkins Univ. Press), for Geology 115, at U.C. Davis, Dept. of Geology. http://mygeologypage...115/115CH5.html .

Iron smelting began in Egypt during the New Kingdom (Dyn. 18), and steel became more common than bronze by the time of Lehi. The Hittites were already making steel by the 15th century B.C., and the King of Mitanni even presented a couple of steel-bladed daggers to Amenhotep III (Dyn. 18), among other iron gifts. They have not been recovered archeologically, but we do have the only slightly later gold-hilted one from Tutankhamun’s tomb, and similar iron-bladed swords and knives have been found elsewhere at Philistine sites (at Tel el-Farʿah = Philistine Sharuhen, and at Tell Qasile). Moreover, there is the more recent discovery of a steel short-sword (blade 12-16 inches long) with ivory hilt and bronze rivets at Philistine Ekron (Tel Miqne) (S. Gitin, Biblical Archaeology Review, 31/6 [Nov-Dec 2005], 40-56; photo on p. 44). The first actual steel implement known from Palestine, however, is an eleventh century B.C. pick from Upper Galilean Har Adir (Mazar, Archaeology of the Land of the Bible, 360-361, photo 8.32, citing D. Davis, et al., JNES, 44 [1985], 41-52), and equally early steel is known also at that time in South Arabia (G. Van Beek, Hajar Bin Humeid: Investigations at a Pre-Islamic Site in South Arabia [baltimore: Johns Hopkins Univ., 1969]).

Iron works (including furnaces) were found by Petrie at Gerar in Palestine, and iron-working even spread into Meroe – both before the time of Lehi – and this may be the product of Greek mercenaries (Ionian and Carian Greeks) contemporary with Lehi using the same technology in Nubia. Assyrian texts tell of tribute in the form of iron bars delivered to Assyrian King Sargon II (722-705 B.C.), and indeed 160 tons of such bars were found by archeologists at his palace in Khorsabad (ancient Dar Sharrukin), Iraq.

Now... for the Americas he might have a point. However... Nephi and co. came from the Middle east right in the middle of all this steel production technology. So the probability is high.

I know of no streel for the Americas though.

Literally tons of iron have been found in Olmec use (including polished iron-ore mirrors, and an odd magnetite pointer, which appears to have been "machined" -- see Coe, Snow, and Benson, Atlas of Ancient America, 100), while ScienceDaily, May 20, 2011, now reports that Archeologists have discovered a 12,000-year-old iron oxide mine in Chile that marks the oldest evidence of organized mining ever found in the Americas, according to a report in the June 2011 issue of Current Anthropology.

http://www.scienceda...10519101231.htm .

Edited September 24, 2011 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

John from Mormon Expression considers steel to be the most problematic anachronism in the Book of Mormon. Anybody agree with this?

No. Steelmaking technology involved the use of bellows to create enough heat in a furnace with charcoal to make a bloom of iron (not melted, but red-hot iron ore). The smith would then take the iron and hammer and quench it systematically to form it into whatever implement he wanted to create. The constant reheating in contact with charcoal was the essential ingredient of steelmaking: for steel is carburized iron, and high carbon steel resists rust. No smelting was required.

[Zakuska]

Thanks for the like Robert...

An estimated 700 cubic meters and 2,000 tons of rock were extracted from the mine. Carbon dates for charcoal and shells found in the mine suggest it was used continuously from around 12,000 years ago to 10,500 years ago, and then used again around 4,300 years ago. The researchers also found more than 500 hammerstones dating back to the earliest use of the mine.

<snip>

Before this find, a North American copper mine dated to between 4,500 and 2,600 years ago was the oldest known in the Americas.

So the Mine was used during BOM times, as well as the other copper mine.

However, they only mention it being used for paint die. Any evidence the Iron was used for tools etc?

Edited September 24, 2011 by Zakuska

[LeSellers]

"Steel" was originally a verb (to harden, strengthen), and we still use it so today: "He steeled his will against her wiles."

In its past participle, it became an adjective; often, but not always, modifying "iron": steeled iron). (Even today, metalworkers call it "iron", because that's what it is: ironworkers.) Steel was any hardened metal. As shown above, "bronze" (hardened copper), was called "steel" in the English Bible.

Since the language of the Book of Mormon was Hebrew, and since we cannot tell exactly what metal Nephi, et al., referred when Joseph translated "steel", it is far from unreasonable to understand that what the Book of Mormon means when we read "steel" may be any metal alloy that is harder or stronger than its primary element. It may very well be iron, or it could be copper, the two most likely candidates, but there are others, as well, that could be what he had in mind. (I'm not a metallurgist, but I read about one, once.)

Lehi

Edited September 26, 2011 by LeSellers

[cinepro]

It may be helpful to review exactly what the Book of Mormon says about "steel":

1 Nephi 4

[9] And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

1 Nephi 16

[18] And it came to pass that as I, Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine steel; and after I did break my bow, behold, my brethren were angry with me because of the loss of my bow, for we did obtain no food.

2 Nephi 5

[15] And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

Jarom

[8] And we multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land, and became exceedingly rich in gold, and in silver, and in precious things, and in fine workmanship of wood, in buildings, and in machinery, and also in iron and copper, and brass and steel, making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground, and weapons of war -- yea, the sharp pointed arrow, and the quiver, and the dart, and the javelin, and all preparations for war.

Ether 7

[9] Wherefore, he came to the hill Ephraim, and he did molten out of the hill, and made swords out of steel for those whom he had drawn away with him; and after he had armed them with swords he returned to the city Nehor and gave battle unto his brother Corihor, by which means he obtained the kingdom and restored it unto his father Kib.

[Rivers]

"Steel" was originally a verb (to harden, strengthen), and we still use it so today: "He steeled his will against her wiles."

In its past participle, it became an adjective; often, but not always, modifying "iron": steeled iron). (Even today, metalworkers call it "iron", because that's what it is: ironworkers.) Steel was any hardened metal. As shown above, "bronze" (hardened copper), was called "steel" in the English Bible.

Since the language of the Book of Mormon was Hebrew, and since we cannot tell exactly what metal Nephi, et al., referred when Joseph translated "steel", it is far from unreasonable to understand that what the Book of Mormon means when we read "steel" may be any metal alloy that is harder or stronger than its primary element. It may very well be iron, of it could be copper, the two most likely candidates, but there are others, as well, that could be what he had in mind. (I'm not a metallurgist, but I read about one, once.)

Lehi

Sounds reasonable to me. By far, the greatest anachronism in the Book of Mormon is the use of the word "adieu."

[Questing Beast]

Any steel working on the scale asserted by the BofM would leave noticeable traces everywhere. A puny artifact record for non weapon iron working does not begin to qualify as evidence for BofM "steel". And as shown in the Ether passage, "steel" was smelted, not merely iron worked with charcoal.

The Inca mines are no help, as they are not BofM area mines. Ditto any N. American mines. The only place where extensive "steel" could be evidence to support the BofM is Mesoamerica. Anyone straining to take in N. American and S. American mining as BofM mining now runs into the obstacle of geographical distances contained in the BofM text. And THAT is the most insurmountable barrier to a Western Hemisphere model for the BofM....

[oremites]

Any steel working on the scale asserted by the BofM would leave noticeable traces everywhere.

What exactly is the scale of steel working asserted by the BofM?

[ERayR]

Any steel working on the scale asserted by the BofM would leave noticeable traces everywhere. A puny artifact record for non weapon iron working does not begin to qualify as evidence for BofM "steel". And as shown in the Ether passage, "steel" was smelted, not merely iron worked with charcoal.

The Inca mines are no help, as they are not BofM area mines. Ditto any N. American mines. The only place where extensive "steel" could be evidence to support the BofM is Mesoamerica. Anyone straining to take in N. American and S. American mining as BofM mining now runs into the obstacle of geographical distances contained in the BofM text. And THAT is the most insurmountable barrier to a Western Hemisphere model for the BofM....

1. What kind of a scale do you think we are talking about? Basically what I see is some weapons manufacturing. They were not building cars, trucks, airplanes and steel buildings.

2. Traces of mining and smelting would not last long in the mesoamerican area or at least they would be covered and dificult to find or recognize.

3. Trade with South America could very well fulfill their needs for steel.

4. The insurmountable barriers are a figment of your own fevered brow.

Edited September 25, 2011 by ERayR

[LeSellers]

Any steel working on the scale asserted by the BofM would leave noticeable traces everywhere. A puny artifact record for non weapon iron working does not begin to qualify as evidence for BofM "steel". And as shown in the Ether passage, "steel" was smelted, not merely iron worked with charcoal.

Wow! "Everywhere"? That's quite a brave assertion. Can you tell us, please, on what you base it?

Because, as cinepro showed, the word "steel" only shows up five times and two of those refer to Old World artifacts.

Of the three "new" world references, none unambiguously speaks of steeled iron. All could easily (and I believe do) refer to another hardened metal alloy: bronze is the most likely candidate.

BTW, "after the manner of" means something very different from "exactly the same as".

Lehi

Edited September 26, 2011 by LeSellers

[Bill Hamblin]

There's a discussion here:

http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/Steel_in_the_Book_of_Mormon.html

[Robert F. Smith]

Thanks for the like Robert...

So the Mine was used during BOM times, as well as the other copper mine.

However, they only mention it being used for paint die. Any evidence the Iron was used for tools etc?

Only in Olmec (Jaredite) times, which I alluded to above. The Olmec likely obtained their iron ore from known outcroppings in Oaxaca, Mexico.

[Storm Rider]

Wow! "Everywhere"? That's quite a brave assertion. Can you tell us, please, on what you base it?

Because, as cinepro showed, the word "steel" only shows up five times and two of those refer to Old World artifacts.

Of the three "new" world references, none unambiguously speaks of iron steel. All could easily (and I believe do) refer to another hardened metal alloy: bronze is the most likely candidate.

BTW, "after the manner of" means something very different from "exactly the same as".

Lehi

LeSellers, it if very inappropriate of you to introduce a demand for factual understanding and reality with a well thought out critical agenda! I mean, what's the prupose of all the effort being exerted to develop a reasonable criticism if you are going to demand that the standard cannot be twisted to fit the needs of the agenda? It is highly offensive to see this kind of thinking being introduced in rebuttal when all that is demanded is that you fall down to the agenda; it is, in fact, necesary, that you simply collapse by the need of this agenda to overwhelm facts.

[cinepro]

Because, as cinepro showed, the word "steel" only shows up five times and two of those refer to Old World artifacts.

Then again, the word "cement" only appears four times (and that's within four verses of the same chapter) and look how much mileage apologists have gotten out of that.

[Verum]

For me, there is no "top anachronism" in the Book of Mormon. I don't see one more problematic than the other. I struggle with the mental gymnastics required to explain all of them as a whole. In addition, when you combine that with problems of an undiscovered and unproven geography, language, and culture, how can anyone assert truthfulness of its historicity? Apologists responses to me are basically the following:

Steel was not really "steel", or yet to be discovered

Horses were not really "horses", or yet to be discovered

Wine = not literally "wine"

Swine = not literally "swine"

barley = not literally barley

elephants = not literally an "elephant ,or yet to be discovered

millions or thousands of soldiers = not literally a "million"

Gold = not "gold"

cattle = not litterally cattle (buffalo)

goat = not a "goat" but possibly a deer?

charriot = not literally a "chariot"

ETC.

Because so many things are being reinterpreted as being less literal, what other choice do I have but to be completely agnostic to the literalness of Book of Mormon in terms of its likelihood of being a literal history of an ancient american civilization? Perhaps someone can help me out on this one...

[cinepro]

Of the three "new" world references, none unambiguously speaks of steeled iron. All could easily (and I believe do) refer to another hardened metal alloy: bronze is the most likely candidate.

Bronze is copper and tin.

Steel is iron and carbon.

Bronze isn't steel. It's bronze.

[blackstrap]

As I am sure you know.... elephant = ox of India not really an OX

hippopotamus = river horse not really a HORSE

quack grass = wheat grass not really connected to a DUCK

We humans like to catagorize based on our previous experience.Sometimes we get it terribly wrong.

[LeSellers]

Because so many things are being reinterpreted as being less literal, what other choice do I have but to be completely agnostic to the literalness of Book of Mormon in terms of its likelihood of being a literal history of an ancient american civilization? Perhaps someone can help me out on this one...

We can’t know what you do accept, this being your first message and all, but I'll assume, for the time being, that you are a Christian of some stripe or other, and that you, therefore, accept the Bible as true.

"Not found, not exist" is a fallacy. Assuming the text must read the way you, personally, interpret it is likewise a fallacy. Expecting a minimally educated man of the early XIX to produce a scholarly translation of a book about whose culture he knew little is a grievous error.

You seem to accept the lie that there is no supportive evidence for the Book of Mormon. As I said, this is untrue. It is evidence, not proof, but it is evidence nonetheless. The Bible suffers (somewhat less, to be sure, but the flaws are still there) from the same lack: there is evidence for it, but there is no proof.

That said, let's move back a few decades to Israel and examine an issue in archeology in the mid-70s as an example.

In the Bible, there were lions. David killed one, for instance. But there was no supportive evidence for the existence of lions in Palestine until somewhat later. Would that have affected your faith in the Bible? If not, why not? Indeed, if it would have, why?

All of your "examples" are skewed mightily, and there is no doubt that you have not investigated them personally, but that you have taken a list from someone else (who may have purloined it himself) and believe them “true” without letting either revelation of common sense bubble through the list.

Gold, for instance, was a very common feature in Mesoamerica, the Spaniards took tons of it to Spain (and lost tons in the Atlantic) to storms and pirates.

What, exactly do you mean by "elephants"? Do you know there are dozens (mostly extinct) kinds of elephants? Is mastodon an elephant? Is a mammoth an elephant? Is it likely a person who had never seen one alive, but who may have seen a picture (drawing, not a photograph) of an elephant would, on seeing a picture of a mammoth, call the latter by the former name? What if he’d only read or heard a description? Would a mastodon be, in his mind and vocabulary, an “elephant”?

There’s more to this than meets your eye. I suggest you read "Losing the Battle and not Knowing it". It's on the web. Even if you’re not a believer at all, the insights from two who oppose us vehemently will be useful for you. You might be surprised to see that two well educated Evangelicals concede that we Saints have upped the ante in these debates, and that all (or nearly all) of your arguments are resolved or made much more complex such that the assertions you have levied are not worth two tin cans and an empty soda bottle.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

Bronze is copper and tin.

Steel is iron and carbon.

Bronze isn't steel. It's bronze.

"Steel" is an adjective, now become a specialized noun, meaning "hardened" or strenghtened". "Steeled iron" has become, as words often do, the simpler "steel", but it was not always so. As I mentioned above, "iron workers" work in steel, not "iron", per se, yet no one would dare call them on their "misuse" of the language.

Bronze is "hardened copper", just as "steel" is "hardened iron". The AV translators got it worng, on many occasions, calling bronze "brass" and "steel", depending on their intuitiion/scholarship/understanding at any given point. the word in Hebrew was plain, it was not steel nor was it brass. It was bronze, yet they used the wrong words 153 times, and, as far as I can tell without my prinmary research tools here, never once used 'bronze" at all.

Steel, as we know it today, was not common/cheap until decades after Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon (~1860), and I'd have to guess that "Steel", while probably used for steeled iron", was not seen exclusively as steeled iron unti the railroads made widspread use of the hardened product more affordable. XIX smiths used samll amounts of steeled iron as edges on weapons and edged tools (axes, knives, etc.) because it was so dear.

Nephi tells us the sword of Laban was of "most precious steel". Whether it was steeled iron or copper, it would have been a costly tool. His "steel" bow was a great loss, but it seems unlikely that it was entirely of :"steel" irrespective of which metal formed its functional parts. I believe Nephi's "steel" was our bronze, but if it turns out to be iron, I'll be pleased to learn it. In either case, it is not an anachronism. They had both alloys in the vi, and, as you pointed out, there isn't much steel in the Book of Mormon anyway.

"Steel", in the mind of Joseph, Nephi, et al, was "hardened metal", not necessarily "hardened iron". It appears your chonocentrism is poking its head above the rocks yonder.

Lehi

Edited September 26, 2011 by LeSellers

[ERayR]

For me, there is no "top anachronism" in the Book of Mormon. I don't see one more problematic than the other. I struggle with the mental gymnastics required to explain all of them as a whole. In addition, when you combine that with problems of an undiscovered and unproven geography, language, and culture, how can anyone assert truthfulness of its historicity? Apologists responses to me are basically the following:

Steel was not really "steel", or yet to be discovered

Horses were not really "horses", or yet to be discovered

Wine = not literally "wine"

Swine = not literally "swine"

barley = not literally barley

elephants = not literally an "elephant ,or yet to be discovered

millions or thousands of soldiers = not literally a "million"

Gold = not "gold"

cattle = not litterally cattle (buffalo)

goat = not a "goat" but possibly a deer?

charriot = not literally a "chariot"

ETC.

Because so many things are being reinterpreted as being less literal, what other choice do I have but to be completely agnostic to the literalness of Book of Mormon in terms of its likelihood of being a literal history of an ancient american civilization? Perhaps someone can help me out on this one...

With so many problems for you why do you waste your time on this site? I am really interested to no why someone would waste thier time on something they neither believe or care about.

[cinepro]

"Steel", in the mind of Joseph, Nephi, et al, was "hardened metal", not necessarily "hardened iron". It appears your chonocentrism is poking its head above the rocks yonder.

Lehi

Like I said in the discussion on Michael Coe, sometimes the biggest mistake people make with the Book of Mormon is thinking that the Book of Mormon means what it says.

It is the purview of apologists to figure out the many ways in which the English words of the Book of Mormon can mean something different than what they say. And given enough creativity and willingness to believe, all things are possible.

I can only point out what the book says, what it doesn't say, and what those words mean in the English it is written in. I will leave it to others to explain all the things it might mean if only it used different words.

Edit to add:

Websters 1828 Dictionary:

STEEL, n. [G.] 1. Iron combined with a small portion of carbon; iron refined and hardened, used in making instruments, and particularly useful as the material of edged tools. It is called in chemistry, carburet of iron; but this is more usually the denomination of plumbago.

Edited September 26, 2011 by cinepro

[Nathair/|\]

Like I said in the discussion on Michael Coe, sometimes the biggest mistake people make with the Book of Mormon is thinking that the Book of Mormon means what it says.

It is the purview of apologists to figure out the many ways in which the English words of the Book of Mormon can mean something different than what they say. And given enough creativity and willingness to believe, all things are possible.

I can only point out what the book says, what it doesn't say, and what those words mean in the English it is written in. I will leave it to others to explain all the things it might mean if only it used different words.

Edit to add:

Websters 1828 Dictionary:

We probably should provide the rest of the definition as well.

2. Figuratively, weapons; particularly, offensive weapons, swords, spears and the like.

Brave Macbeth with his brandishd steel.

-- While doubting thus he stood, receivd the steel bathd in this brothers blood.

3. Medicines composed of steel, as steel fillings.

After relaxing, steel strengthens the solids.

4. Extreme hardness; as heads or hearts of steel.

STEEL, a. Made of steel; as a steel plate or buckle.

STEEL, v.t.

1. To overlay, point or edge with steel; as, to steel the point of a sword; to steel a razor; to steel an ax.

2. To make hard or extremely hard.

O God of battles, steel my soldiers hearts.

Lies well steeld with weighty arguments.

3. To make hard; to make insensible or obdurate; as, to steel the heart against pity; to steel the mind or heart against reproof or admonition.

[mfbukowski]

Here's a good discussion on the subject

http://ldsdoctrine.blogspot.com/2008/06/bible-and-book-of-mormon-steel.html

Edited September 26, 2011 by mfbukowski