Baptisms For The Dead: Ancestors Only?

[kolipoki09]

Quit attending the Temple after the last session turned out to be the 9th time the person I went through for had their work done. This well after assurances this was not happening, not with the computerized programs. Finding this AGAIN, after being assured it was fixed, (6th time I found it after starting to check on who I was going through for) has me convinced most Temple ork is 'busy work' and is nothing more than keeping people doing something - anything, to keep them involved. So, I spend the time I would otherwise go to the Temple volunteering at a local senior center and soup kitchen.

Have lurked here for some time but just recently signed on. Some interesting topics and some very different views at times. Overall, not too bad.

Even the slightest variation in spelling or spacing can be grounds for resubmitting or overlooking a name. The new system that was recently (2009-2010) put into place is aimed at reducing/eliminating that problem all together. I'm sorry you feel "most Temple ork (sic) is busy work." - unless the Church has announced a new temple in Isengard.

I'm glad you've found time to participate in activities you feel are worth your while and can benefit the community at large. I too, have volunteered at senior centers and soup kitchens. As a missionary, I used to shoot pool and play cards and dominoes at senior centers around Fort Worth. It was a blast.

[T-Shirt]

Quit attending the Temple after the last session turned out to be the 9th time the person I went through for had their work done. This well after assurances this was not happening, not with the computerized programs. Finding this AGAIN, after being assured it was fixed, (6th time I found it after starting to check on who I was going through for) has me convinced most Temple ork is 'busy work' and is nothing more than keeping people doing something - anything, to keep them involved. So, I spend the time I would otherwise go to the Temple volunteering at a local senior center and soup kitchen.

Have lurked here for some time but just recently signed on. Some interesting topics and some very different views at times. Overall, not too bad.

It is up to the members to use the new system and weed out all the duplicates before submitting a name. It It is up to you to make sure your work is not duplicated, not someone else.

Best,

T-Shirt

Edited August 3, 2011 by T-Shirt

[frankenstein]

I am confused by the following statement in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

"In the early years of the Church, proxy baptisms were performed only for direct blood ancestors, usually no more than four generations back. Today, Latter-day Saints are baptized not only for their own forebears but also for other persons, unrelated to them, identified through the name extraction program" (emphasis added).

Everything else I have ever read seems to state clearly that a Mormon may be baptized only for his or her own forebears. For example, the LDS Church, in response to a recent controversy involving a Mormon being baptized on behalf of President Obama's mother, issued the following statement:

"The offering of baptism to our deceased ancestors is a sacred practice to us and it is counter to Church policy for a Church member to submit names for baptism for persons to whom they are not related."

Can someone clear this up, please? I would like to have the facts straight regarding the LDS doctrine and practice concerning baptisms for the dead.

you confusing started with going to Encyclopedia of Mormonism. But yes, a proxy baptism can be done, for person who are deceased and a non-relative to the Proxy under certain conditions.

[Mudcat]

Volgadon is correct. You can only submit names that you are related to.

Can you submit non blood related relatives?

In example, could my LDS wife or her mom submit the name of my non-LDS mom?

[zerinus]

I am confused by the following statement in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

"In the early years of the Church, proxy baptisms were performed only for direct blood ancestors, usually no more than four generations back. Today, Latter-day Saints are baptized not only for their own forebears but also for other persons, unrelated to them, identified through the name extraction program" (emphasis added).

Everything else I have ever read seems to state clearly that a Mormon may be baptized only for his or her own forebears. For example, the LDS Church, in response to a recent controversy involving a Mormon being baptized on behalf of President Obama's mother, issued the following statement:

"The offering of baptism to our deceased ancestors is a sacred practice to us and it is counter to Church policy for a Church member to submit names for baptism for persons to whom they are not related."

Can someone clear this up, please? I would like to have the facts straight regarding the LDS doctrine and practice concerning baptisms for the dead.

Here is the information given in the FAMILY HISTORY CONSULTANT’S GUIDE to Temple and Family History Work, P.34:

Members provide ordinances for their family and ancestors.

Members are generally able to perform temple ordinances for the following individuals one year from the date of death, without regard to the person’s worthiness or cause of death (for persons born within the last 95 years, see “The 95-year rule” below):

• Immediate family members.
  
  
• Direct-line ancestors (parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, and so on).
  
  
• Biological, adoptive, and foster family lines connected to their family.
  
  
• Collateral family lines (uncles, aunts, cousins, and their families).
  
  
• Descendants (children, grandchildren, and so on).
  
  
• Descendants of direct-line ancestors and their families.
  
  
• Possible ancestors. These are individuals who have a probable family relationship, but that relationship cannot be verified because the records are inadequate. This may include individuals who had the same last name and resided in the same areas as known ancestors.
  
  
• Close friends. This is an exception to the rule that members should submit only the names of their own family and ancestors. Before performing ordinances for a friend, a member should obtain permission from the individual’s closest living relative. With the exception of friends (explained above), members should not submit the names of individuals they are not related to, including famous people or those gathered from unapproved extraction projects, such as Jewish Holocaust victims.
  
  

The 95-year rule.

Before you provide ordinances for someone who was born within the last 95 years, please get permission from the closest living relative. The closest living relatives are, in this order: a spouse, then children, then parents, then siblings.

In addition to the above, there is also the 100 year rule and 110 year rule. If a person's date of birth or marriage is known, and no record or knowledge of death, if they were born more than 110 years ago, or married more than 100 years ago, they are presumed dead, and proxy work can be performed for them. See p. 35 of the above handbook.

Edited August 3, 2011 by zerinus

[Scott Lloyd]

Can you submit non blood related relatives?

In example, could my LDS wife or her mom submit the name of my non-LDS mom?

I think that question is addressed here, a link I provided in a prior post.

[Scott Lloyd]

Here is the information given in the FAMILY HISTORY CONSULTANT’S GUIDE to Temple and Family History Work, P.34:

Members provide ordinances for their family and ancestors.

Members are generally able to perform temple ordinances for the following individuals one year from the date of death, without regard to the person’s worthiness or cause of death (for persons born within the last 95 years, see “The 95-year rule” below):

• Immediate family members.
  
  
• Direct-line ancestors (parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, and so on).
  
  
• Biological, adoptive, and foster family lines connected to their family.
  
  
• Collateral family lines (uncles, aunts, cousins, and their families).
  
  
• Descendants (children, grandchildren, and so on).
  
  
• Descendants of direct-line ancestors and their families.
  
  
• Possible ancestors. These are individuals who have a probable family relationship, but that relationship cannot be verified because the records are inadequate. This may include individuals who had the same last name and resided in the same areas as known ancestors.
  
  
• Close friends. This is an exception to the rule that members should submit only the names of their own family and ancestors. Before performing ordinances for a friend, a member should obtain permission from the individual’s closest living relative. With the exception of friends (explained above), members should not submit the names of individuals they are not related to, including famous people or those gathered from unapproved extraction projects, such as Jewish Holocaust victims.
  
  

The 95-year rule.

Before you provide ordinances for someone who was born within the last 95 years, please get permission from the closest living relative. The closest living relatives are, in this order: a spouse, then children, then parents, then siblings.

In addition to the above, there is also the 100 year rule and 110 year rule. If a person's date of birth or marriage is known, and no record or knowledge of death, if they were born more than 110 years ago, or married more than 100 years ago, they are presumed dead, and proxy work can be performed for them. See p. 35 of the above handbook.

For a non-PDF (and possibly more up-to-date) copy of the guidelines, go to the link I have now provided twice, most recently in my last post.

Edited August 3, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[LeSellers]

Can you submit non blood related relatives?

Yes, you can.

We had, as long-timers here may recall, a ward member named "Jerry" (I call him that because it's his name). Jerry died before going to the Temple. He had no children, and his only relatives (as far as we could determine) were also dead. We have had his Temple work done.

This is not "normal", and typically, only the person's descendants or other relatives could submit the name for anyone born more recently than 1901.

Lehi

Edited August 3, 2011 by LeSellers

[zerinus]

For a non-PDF (and possibly more up-to-date) copy of the guidelines, go to the link I have now provided twice, most recently in my last post.

What is wrong with the information I have provided?

[frankenstein]

What is wrong with the information I have provided?

nothing, just t another format option, and its also good to have repetitive correct answers, to dispel incorrect myths.

Temple can be done for non-relatives

and

Temple work can be done for Jewish person who died in the nazi concentration camps.

Edited August 3, 2011 by frankenstein

[Scott Lloyd]

Yes, you can.

We had, as long-timers here may recall, a ward member named "Jerry" (I call him that because it's his name). Jerry died before going to the Temple. He had no children, and his only relatives (as far as we could determine) were also dead. We have had his Temple work done.

This is not "normal", and typically, only the person's descendants or other relatives could submit the name for anyone born more recently than 1901.

Lehi

Here's the verbiage from the guidelines:

You may submit the names of individuals with whom you shared a friendship. This is an exception to the general rule that members should not submit the names of individuals to whom they are not related. Before performing ordinances for a deceased individual who was a friend, you should obtain permission from the individual's closest living relative.

[Scott Lloyd]

nothing, just t another format option, and its also good to have repetitive correct answers, to dispel incorrect myths.

Temple can be done for non-relatives

and

Temple work can be done for Jewish person who died in the nazi concentration camps.

True. Again, from the guidelines:

Do not submit names of persons who are not related to you, including names of famous people or names gathered from unapproved extraction projects, such as victims of the Jewish Holocaust. For Jewish Holocaust victims, LDS Church members cannot do the ordinances for these people except under the following conditions:

They are an immediate family member of the deceased (defined as parents, spouse, or children)

They have permission of all living immediate family members

They have the permission of the closest living relative if no immediate family members are living

[BCSpace]

I am confused by the following statement in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

.....

Can someone clear this up, please? I would like to have the facts straight regarding the LDS doctrine and practice concerning baptisms for the dead.

As good as it may be, I wouldn't depend on a nondoctrinal work for doctrine.

Edited August 3, 2011 by BCSpace

[Scott Lloyd]

Rob appears to have fallen silent on this thread. I hope he's satisfied with the answers he received.

[zerinus]

Rob appears to have fallen silent on this thread. I hope he's satisfied with the answers he received.

Rob always falls silent when the going gets tough.

[volgadon]

Even the slightest variation in spelling or spacing can be grounds for resubmitting or overlooking a name. The new system that was recently (2009-2010) put into place is aimed at reducing/eliminating that problem all together. I'm sorry you feel "most Temple ork (sic) is busy work." - unless the Church has announced a new temple in Isengard.

It used to be a huge headache. Take Eastern Europe for instance. The older programs weren't really suited to Cyrillic, let alone different naming conventions and the almost bewildering changes in political geography and toponyms. Apart from the spelling variations, there was also the problem of a language barrier in the Freiberg temple, which was always short on temple workers who spoke English, German AND Russian/Ukrainian/Polish etc.

[Kenngo1969]

I think you got it wrong, ol' buddy, ol' pal.

It should be "How Many Pinheads Can Dance on an Angel", isn't it?

Lehi

That works, too, on occasion, but I've been upbraided for being too hard on Brother Bowman, so ...

[Kenngo1969]

... I too, have volunteered at senior centers and soup kitchens. As a missionary, I used to shoot pool and play cards and dominoes at senior centers around Fort Worth. It was a blast.

Were any of those senior citizens pool sharks who would have delighted in separating you from your money if you'd given them the chance? (My dad may be an Old Coot, but I do not ... repeat, not ... play pool with him!)

[MDesigns]

Joseph Smith said something about such things I find interesting:

"A man my act as proxy for his own relatives; the ordinances of the Gospel which were laid out before the foundations of the world have thus been fulfilled by them, and we may be baptised for those whom we have much friendship for; but it MUST FIRST BE REVEALED TO THE MAN OF GOD LEST WE SHOULD RUN TOO FAR." Hsitory of church vol.6, pg. 366

See also Moroni 8:22, D&C 76:118 (while in the flesh), 1 Timothy 1:4

[KevinG]

Something to keep in mind:

Family History research and Temple work are separate projects and separate databases. The LDS Church collects names and lineages and freely makes them available for all people. These databases (IGI) are huge and contain any names submitted by members and non members alike. This is the database that the name extraction program feeds.

The Temple work is done by families for families. The geneological library is a resource as well as family histories but names in the library are not automatically submitted to the temple. Not all names collected by the LDS Church are submitted to the temple. Occasionally we have over eager people who submit names of people they are not related to. This causes problems for relations with other religions and peoples and the church is trying to keep this from happening. If they find out after the fact they correct the records and remove name that should not have been done.

There are cases where a non-blood relative can have their work done. Like when I asked my Great Aunt permission to do the work for a beloved Great Uncle who had passed away. She gave me permission after a few questions about agency, ordiances and what it means to us.

[rpn]

The church still does extraction programs, and assuming the owners of the records agree, submit those names for temple work (which is why catholics were told a couple of years ago to quit taking advantage of the church's offers to digitize their records). That hasn't changed, and is what the article was saying. Church MEMBERS on the other hand are supposed to be submitting only the names of their personal ancestors and those who they have permission from next of kin to do temple work for.

[Rob Bowman]

zerinus,

You wrote:

Rob always falls silent when the going gets tough.

Good grief.

I'm tired of explaining to children that some adults have heavy responsibilities, health issues, etc., and might not always be able to respond immediately. I'm also weary of smart-alecks constantly jumping to conclusions about my motivations.

[Calm]

zerinus,

You wrote:

Good grief.

I'm tired of explaining to children that some adults have heavy responsibilities, health issues, etc., and might not always be able to respond immediately. I'm also weary of smart-alecks constantly jumping to conclusions about my motivations.

If you think of them as children, then just ignore their comments. Actually responding to the various posts---such as thanking people for doing the homework for the information in recognition of their efforts rather than saying nothing---would demonstrate they were wrong better than a post like the one above Edited August 4, 2011 by calmoriah

[zerinus]

zerinus,

You wrote:

Good grief.

I'm tired of explaining to children that some adults have heavy responsibilities, health issues, etc., and might not always be able to respond immediately. I'm also weary of smart-alecks constantly jumping to conclusions about my motivations.

Nice try. I look forward to your reply here.

[Rob Bowman]

All,

I appreciate the helpful information several of you provided. As I said, I wasn't looking to argue anything here, but was asking for clarification. Those who assumed or asserted otherwise were mistaken.

I understand that the Encyclopedia of Mormonism is not a religiously authoritative text for Mormons, but it is reasonable to assume that it accurately reported what Mormons actually were doing in 1992. Its reference to names "identified through the name extraction program" implies that many of those potential beneficiaries of proxy ordinances were identified not by their descendants but by the LDS Church's program. It says nothing about any need for such beneficiaries to be claimed by members as their ancestors. This is consistent with the fact that during the 1980s and 1990s Mormons were getting baptized for Holocaust victims and so forth. The backlash against that practice seems to have prompted the policy of requiring that a member be able to claim the dead person as an ancestor or close relative before proxy ordinances are performed for that person. This supports the conclusion that there was a change in policy, as some of you insisted (e.g., posts #2, 4, 15). On the other hand, some of you seem to deny that any policy change took place (e.g., rpn in post #46). There is also some apparent discrepancy regarding whether proxy ordinances even now are limited to persons identified as ancestors of LDS Church members. Several of you affirmed this limitation, but Lehi denied it: "there are billions of others who need this work done, and it is not their fault that they do not yet have Saints as descendants" (post #15; see also #17).

So I remain unsure as to how to characterize the LDS Church's official policy is on these matters.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Rob Bowman