The Church Of The Devil

[Mark Beesley]

Occasionally, we see someone raise the spectre of 1 Nephi 14:10 where the angel tells Nephi, " Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil . . ." The scripture is used to argue that people who belong to any denomination other than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints belong to the Church of the Devil. The argument makes some sense, based on that single scripture. But I'm not sure it is that easy.

In the Doctrine and Covenants 18:20 the Lord says, "Contend against no church, save it be the church of the devil." Now, if there were only two churches, this admonition would not make any sense. We're not going to contend against our ourselves (as opposed to amongst ourselves ). So the Lord's admonition assumes more than one church other than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I think the implication is that Nephi's angel was not looking at institutional Churches of our day, but rather at something broader. I am also mindful that the words of the angel that we have are a translation. We do not know what word the angel used originally, and whether or not church really describes what the angel intended.

In Section 18, the Lord seems to be looking at churches in a different way, and maybe even in a couple of ways in that single verse. As I read verse 20, we are not to contend with other churches, be they Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc. We should not set up a booth at the Methodist Fairgrounds handing out literature saying why Methodists are wrong. On the other hand, within any church, and even outside any chuch, there will be those who the Lord considers to belong to the Church of the Devil. I have to admit that I do not know what criteria the Lord uses to consign a person to membership in such Church. I suspect that he wants us to follow the Spirit in our communications with others and trust that the Spirit will convey to us such promptings as needed to know whether someone belongs to the Church of the Lamb of God, or the Church of the Devil.

[Calm]

Even LDSs can be members of the Church of the Devil so it is more of a 'philosophy' than an institution.

Just as there Latter-day Saints who belong to the great and abominable church because of their loyalty to Satan and his life-style, so there are members of other churches who belong to the Lamb because of their loyalty to him and his life-style. Membership is based more on who has your heart than on who has your records.

http://lds.org/ensign/1988/01/warring-against-the-saints-of-god?lang=eng&noLang=true&path=/ensign/1988/01/warring-against-the-saints-of-god

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Members can be of the church of the devil and non members can be of the church of the Lamb. It appears to be a philosophical question. It kind of reminds me of the cartoons that would portray the escalators to heaven or h*** when a person has died. Maybe that analogy is not all the relevant here, but there you go.

[bluebell]

I was going to put up the quote that Cal quoted but she beat me to it. I think it's a very important one to remember.

[LeSellers]

Talk about the excluded middle.

One can be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints and still be a member of the church of the Devil.

One can not be a Saint and not be a member of the church of the Devil.

Sorry, can't vote on this.

Lehi

[Mark Beesley]

Talk about the excluded middle.

One can be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints and still be a member of the church of the Devil.

The poll question does not exclude this possibility. It only addresses people who are not LDS.

One can not be a Saint and not be a member of the church of the Devil.

Did you mis-type? I don't understand this.

Sorry, can't vote on this.

Sure ya can. Take a chance. Dive in with your clothes on!!

I'd like to hear from the person who voted True . . .

[etana]

What Cal said.

Luke 9:47-49; Matt 10:42; 18:5; Mark 9:38-41

[cinepro]

The problem with the "it's a philosophy" approach is that, as of ~600BC when Nephi was talking with the angel, the "Church" had yet to be "formed" yet.

So I'm not sure what kind of philosophy we are theorizing that hadn't yet been formed.

1 Nephi 13

5 And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.

6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.

Stephen Robinson makes the most sense with his theory.

It would be an error to blame some modern denomination for the activities of an ancient great and abominable church. The other error is to go too far the other way, dehistoricizing the abominable church altogether. The term then becomes merely a vague symbol for all the disassociated evil in the world. We cannot, in the face of the scriptural evidence, accept this view. For if we do, we shall not be able to recognize the categories and know who is playing the role of Babylon in our own times or in times to come. Thus, we must, on the one hand, avoid the temptation to identify the role of the great and abominable church so completely with one particular entity that we do not recognize the part when it is played by some other entity. At the same time, we must remember that the role will be played by some entity or coalition, and we must be able to tell by their characteristic fruits which is Zion and which is Babylon.

Edited July 28, 2011 by cinepro

[CV75]

From an eternal perspective, when all is said and done, if you are not a member of the Church of the Firstborn via the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or any of its legitimate counterparts operating in prior dispensations, then by default you are a defacto member of the church of the devil (the gate is exceedingly wide!), no matter how poor or inactive or regretful a member of that church you may be until he is bound (at which point you are in the church of the kingdom you are comfortable in). From a temporal perspective, if you are not in heading toward the Church of the Firstborn, you are heading away from it and toward the church of the devil (whether you are a member of the LDS Church or not).

[inquiringmind]

I am also mindful that the words of the angel that we have are a translation. We do not know what word the angel used originally, and whether or not church really describes what the angel intended

I want to make sure I understand this.

Even if Joseph translated the plates "by the gift and power of God," and an angel told the three witnesses that they'd been "translated correctly," we still don't know if the word Joseph chose to use (in 1 Nephi 14:10) really describes what the angel who spoke to Nephi intended?

[Franktalk]

A literal interpretation of a true answer would cast millions into h*** just because they were born before Joseph Smith. This makes no sense and God would not do this. This is an idea of man. If we have knowledge of scripture does that give us the right to judge souls? I say it does not. I trust God to provide a path for many to be saved that I am not aware of. To limit God to just what I know is beyond stupid.

[inquiringmind]

A literal interpretation of a true answer would cast millions into h*** just because they were born before Joseph Smith. This makes no sense and God would not do this. This is an idea of man. If we have knowledge of scripture does that give us the right to judge souls? I say it does not. I trust God to provide a path for many to be saved that I am not aware of. To limit God to just what I know is beyond stupid.

So your answer is "yes" (even if Joseph translated the plates "by the gift and power of God," and an angel told the three witnesses that they'd been "translated correctly," we still don't know if the word "church" really describes what the angel who spoke to Nephi intended),

Is that right?

[ldsfaqs]

The Church of the Devil idea has always within the Church been an "ideological" construct, not a literal one referencing a specific religion.

Both Orson Pratt and McConkie were corrected and/or sanctioned when they tried to promote this idea.

This idea came originally from Protestantism, and thus given the heritage and education of Orson and McConkie, it wasn't unreasonable that "some" small numbers of members of the Church incorrectly had this belief. However, Mormonism itself always taught that the Church of the Devil is anything evil and false of the world. Most religions simply don't fit that description because they usually teach "more" truth than they teach that which is false. Plus, anyone with a more "discerning" mind can read the scriptures said scriptures in question and see that it is talking about an ideology, not any particular religion. Only by "adding" to the Word doesn't someone interpret those scriptures as being specific to a religion. The verses themselves simply do not say anything about it, just as the Bible verse that God is spirit, saying anything about God "only" being spirit. Adding to the Word is a no no.

Edited July 28, 2011 by ldsfaqs

[zelder]

I believe there are two organized entities which are the Church of Christ and the Church of the Devil. They are both trying to establish world domination and world peace through different means. The church of Christ works in the open and the Church of the Devil works in secret but both are very organized. The church of the Devil is extremely powerful and has dominion over the whole earth. The Church of Christ has small dominions but is spread throughout the world. Your beliefs and lifestyle determine which camp you are in.

[zelder]

I believe there are two organized entities which are the Church of Christ and the Church of the Devil. They are both trying to establish world domination and world peace through different means. The church of Christ works in the open and the Church of the Devil works in secret but both are very organized. The church of the Devil is extremely powerful and has dominion over the whole earth. The Church of Christ has small dominions but is spread throughout the world. Your beliefs and lifestyle determine which camp you are in.

[Rob Osborn]

I believe there are two organized entities which are the Church of Christ and the Church of the Devil. They are both trying to establish world domination and world peace through different means. The church of Christ works in the open and the Church of the Devil works in secret but both are very organized. The church of the Devil is extremely powerful and has dominion over the whole earth. The Church of Christ has small dominions but is spread throughout the world. Your beliefs and lifestyle determine which camp you are in.

I find it highly suspect that the church of the devil would be seeking to establish world peace. That isn't Satan's calling card. Wherever we find contention, war, terror, etc, we find Satan and his minions hard at work. Wherever we find peace, happiness (true happiness) and loving relations, we find God and his angels hard at work. Two completely different roads- one leading to peace and harmony and the other leading away from it into terror, disruption and chaos.

[zelder]

I find it highly suspect that the church of the devil would be seeking to establish world peace. That isn't Satan's calling card. Wherever we find contention, war, terror, etc, we find Satan and his minions hard at work. Wherever we find peace, happiness (true happiness) and loving relations, we find God and his angels hard at work. Two completely different roads- one leading to peace and harmony and the other leading away from it into terror, disruption and chaos.

In the temple he claims to be the instrument of peace while at the same time threating war and horror. He's insane and so are his followers. Insane yet very cunning. Did you read 1984? War is peace.

[Libs]

Membership is based more on who has your heart than on who has your records.

That is an awesome quote. God is concerned, primarily, with our heart...how we worship... not so much with where we worship.

[Storm Rider]

Gosh, I am surprised that anyone would think everyone but LDS would belong to the church of the evil one! People, surely you understand that just being a member of the LDS Church is not "get out of jail free" card. The work we do on behalf of the dead will be complete for all the dead; all will have the ordinances of salvation and exaltation done for them. In saying that, understand that we will all stand together that choose to, will all the ordinances of Exaltation. What will be the difference between each of us? How well our hearts and minds reflect those of the Savior's!

[Franktalk]

So your answer is "yes" (even if Joseph translated the plates "by the gift and power of God," and an angel told the three witnesses that they'd been "translated correctly," we still don't know if the word "church" really describes what the angel who spoke to Nephi intended),

Is that right?

You assume that everything that can be known is already in scripture. Why do we have additional scripture from the 1800's? Will we have additional scripture when Christ comes and rules on the earth? Or will He just repeat what He has already said before. If he does not say anything new why come to the earth? I assume that an infinite God requires infinity to convey His message.

[volgadon]

Members can be of the church of the devil and non members can be of the church of the Lamb. It appears to be a philosophical question. It kind of reminds me of the cartoons that would portray the escalators to heaven or h*** when a person has died. Maybe that analogy is not all the relevant here, but there you go.

http://thmb.inkfrog.com/thumbn/7147ron/DSC04042.JPG=450

[David T]

D&C 10:52-55, given in 1828 - Joseph organized the Church of Christ in April 1830. Clearly, according to this, others were recognized as being part of the Lord's Church prior to the organization of the visible/hierarchical Church.

52And now, behold, according to their faith in their prayers will I bring this part of my gospel to the knowledge of my people. Behold, I do not bring it to destroy that which they have received, but to build it up.

53And for this cause have I said: If this generation harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them.

54Now I do not say this to destroy my church, but I say this to build up my church;

55 Therefore, whosoever belongeth to my church need not afear, for such shall inherit the ckingdom of heaven.

Revelation - March 1829 [D&C 5] - (Manuscript from Joseph Smith Papers)

if the People of this Generation harden not their hearts I will work a reformation among them & I will put down all lieings & deceivings & Priest Craft & envyings & strifes & Idolatries and sorceries & all ma ner of Iniquities & I will establish my Churchyea even the church which was taught by my Des iples

According to this, the Church Christ would later establish (in 1830) is not to destroy the current invisible/non-organized Church made up of the humble followers of Christ which was already recognized, but to further reform and establish it, and to build it up.It acknowledged those who were faithfully following Christ, but simply needed to be focused and corrected - and empowered.

The corporate Church is the visible and organized "hub", or "capital" or "HQ" - or authorized gathering place of those who, by their desires and intentions, are already part of the full Church of the Lamb. The corporate Church finds, instructs, organizes, identifies, and empowers.

Edited July 28, 2011 by nackhadlow

[Next Year Here]

The WORLD is the church of the devil.

Mosiah 3:19

19. For the natual man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the

enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh

as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a

child doth submit to his father.

1 Samuel 1:16

16 Count not thine handmaid for a daughter of Belial for out of the abundance of my complaint and grief have I spoken hitherto.

1 Samuel 2:12

12 ¶ Now the sons of Eli were sons of Belial; they knew not the Lord.

Deuteronomy 30:6

6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart,

and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

The Ancients knew all about this, both in the Old Testament and in the Book of Mormon.

The church of the devil is not a corporate entity. It is certainly NOT the Church of Satan. It is the natural man. This is the default reality of

all men and women born in this world. A preacher of righteousness MUST contend against the fall of our natures that, like the devil,

defies God, not to do his will. The gospel is provided for an escape from the bondage of the pride of the world, which is the church of the devil.

Indeed it is our pride that Christ promises to heal us from. Every approaching virtue that makes you acceptable is ANTI-PRIDE, meek,

of a broken-heart, yielding to Christ's scepter as his name shall forever rule over them, forsaking the world. The proud will not see it nor hear it.

Matthew 13:14-15

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye

shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they

see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Only those who are truly visited of God and wrought upon and cleansed and given a new from God--not of their own striving to be like Christ--

but as the scripture show, through faith upon the name of Jesus Christ, taking upon them his name with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy,

striving to have this mighty change from God and that wicked spirit of the natural man rooted out of their breast, being given a clean heart filled with charity,

and that of God and not after the manner of men, and the knowledge of God having had to do with him on an intimate recreation of their whole soul, even

of heart, might, mind, and strength, becoming a new creature, by power and that too of God and not of themselves forsaking all deceit they become the

children of the kingdom of God in the instant this covenant is duly ratified by a most holy ordinance of the visitation of the Father whether seen,

as with Joseph Smith, who received a gift to be a chosen seer, or unseen as with most others whose gifts vary. Only these know the lord and have

been taken out of the world, out of the church of the devil.

ANYTHING more of less comes of evil and will not stand when the floods come, for they are built upon a sandy foundation.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

http://thmb.inkfrog.com/thumbn/7147ron/DSC04042.JPG=450

Oh heck yeah. I need to get one of those.Good call. I am out of rep points. I would give you one.

[LeSellers]

The poll question does not exclude [the possibility [of being a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and still be a memeber of the church of ht eDevil]. It only addresses people who are not LDS.

Technically you're right. But the poll appears slanted toward a particular position. It doesn't seem fair (I know, "fair is where you go to see pigs").

Did you mis-type? I don't understand [One can not be a Saint and not be a member of the church of the Devil].

Another way of saying this is one can be other than a Saint without being a member of the church of the Devil.

Lehi