No Death Before The Fall

[BCSpace]

The Roberts/Smith/Talmage affair is essential to understanding how and why correlation came to be.

Yes it is.

IOW, the guiding principle of correlation is to shield the members from any information or ideas that may cause them to ask questions, begin investigating or think at all about anything. This is the unrecognized root-cause of people's boredom in Sunday school.

I don't agree that it was the guiding principle though perhaps it now is.

As for the Garden-of-Eden-in-a-Bubble theory:

Armed with this response Elder Talmage brought up the subject of Smith’s paper in the April 1931 meeting called to bring the issue to a final solution. In this heated meeting, as he later wrote to his son, Talmage used Sterling’s evidence to “show up James McCready Price in all his unenviable colors.” Moreover, he “was bold enough to point out that according to a tradition in the Church based on good authority as having risen from a declaration made by the Prophet Joseph Smith, a certain pile of stones at Adam-ondi-Ahman, Spring Hill, Mo., is really part of the altar on which Adam offered sacrifices, and that I had personally examined those stones and found them to be fossiliferous, so that if those stones be part of the first altar, Adam built it of stones containing corpses, and therefore death must have prevailed in the earth before Adam’s times.”23 Finally, Talmage made it clear to his assembled brethren that all reputable geologists recognized the existence both of death and “pre-Adamites” prior to 6,000 years ago, the presumed date of the fall of Adam.

Are these stones extant today?

Edited July 24, 2011 by BCSpace

[BCSpace]

This quote fully supports my position.... From the Presidency of the Church themselves.

Quoting some manuals and some statements does not a doctrine make.

Actually it does as this is the Church's definition of doctrine. But since the 1931 statement is before correlation, I think it still has to be treated as doctrine as it seems to meet a reasonable standard of official publication. As for what cinepro has quoted, they can be countered by the methods I describe in post #95.

Edited July 24, 2011 by BCSpace

[BCSpace]

Here's another statement from a living Apostle, correlated and found in the current Book of Mormon Institute manual:

2 Nephi 2:22-25. "Adam Fell That Men Might Be"

Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained why the Fall was necessary:

The Creation culminated with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. They were created in the image of God, with bodies of flesh and bone. Created in the image of God and not yet mortal, they could not grow old and die. And they would have had no children [2 Nephi 2:23] nor experienced the trials of life. . . . The creation of Adam and Eve was a paradisiacal creation, one that required a significant change before they could fulfill the commandment to have children and thus provide earthly bodies for premortal spirit sons and daughters of God.

. . . The Fall of Adam (and Eve) constituted the mortal creation and brought about the required changes in their bodies, including the circulation of blood and other modifications as well. They were now able to have children. They and their posterity also became subject to injury, disease, and death (in Conference Report, Oct. 1996, 44-45; or Ensign, Nov. 1996, 33).

How does that preclude evolution in the creative state implied by verse 22? Their final state of Adam's creation was indeed paradisiacal.

And while we've already established the low opinion many LDS have for the Bible Dictionary, I suppose if we have people referencing the Signature Books website, the LDS Bible Dictionary can't be any worse:

The LDS Bible Dictionary itself has established that it's not doctrine.

Latter-day revelation teaches that there was no death on this earth for any forms of life before the fall of Adam. Indeed, death entered the world as a direct result of the fall (2 Ne. 2:22; Moses 6:48).

Even if we assumed the LDS Bible Dictionary was doctrine, this still doesn;t help your case. Which earth? The already created on. Besides general context, the doctrine on D&C 77 also implies this context as when happend before the opening of the seals doesn;t really concern us.

"Latter-day revelation" indeed.

Beautiful ain't it?

[cinepro]

Actually it does as this is the Church's definition of doctrine. But since the 1931 statement is before correlation, I think it still has to be treated as doctrine as it seems to meet a reasonable standard of official publication. As for what cinepro has quoted, they can be countered by the methods I describe in post #95.

This doesn't make any sense. How can internal memos be considered officially "published"?

Bringing up the 1931 memo isn't any better than bringing up quotes from the Journal of Discourses. It's a last act of desperation, flailing about for anything that might support a tenuous theory. If an anti-Mormon brought up the JOD or unpublished, 80-year old internal memos in a discussion of Church teachings and doctrines, they would get laughed off the board.

[cinepro]

The LDS Bible Dictionary itself has established that it's not doctrine.

Yes, but interestingly the recently published "Preach My Gospel" manual which outlines the standards by the which the missionaries are to learn and teach takes a very supportive view towards the Bible Dictionary, with nary a hint to the missionaries about the Bible Dictionary's low status among apologists.

More to the point, when learning about the Atonement missionaries are specifically told to study the Bible Dictionary's entry on "Death".

Resurrection

2 Nephi 9:6–7 D&C 88:27–32 JST, 1 Corinthians 15:40

Alma 11:42–45 Luke 24:1–10, 36–39 Topical Guide, “Resurrection”

Alma 40:23 1 Corinthians 15:20–23 Bible Dictionary, “Death,” “Resurrection”

Helaman 14:15–19 1 Corinthians 15:41–42

p. 52

The entry on "death" is where we learn:

Latter-day revelation teaches that there was no death on this earth for any forms of life before the fall of Adam. Indeed, death entered the world as a direct result of the fall (2 Ne. 2:22; Moses 6:48).

So the current curriculum used by all of the Church's missionaries is specifically telling them to read the entry in the Bible dictionary that clearly teaches that there "was no death on this earth for any forms of life before the fall of Adam".

If the Church doctrine is really open to the idea of death before the fall, then someone really didn't get the memo.

[Mortal Man]

Are these stones extant today?

I don't know. I haven't been there since I was a kid. Someone should go look for these stones and see if Talmage was right.

Somehow I don't see the church spending a lot of money to conduct archaeological excavations of the site to look for pre-6000-BC bones or fossils. That would constitute an uncorrelated activity.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Mortal Man

[Mark Beesley]

Reality = Scientific evidence

Define:

1. Science; and

2. Evidence.

Consider Descarte, Cogito ergo sum. His reality was his existence. His evidence therefor was his thoughts. Can his thinking be considered scientific? It is, after all, wholly subjective.

Step back from what you think you know through "science." Is that reality going to be testable in 3,000,000,000 years on a planet 7,000,000,000 light years from earth and yield the same result? Indeed, to define reality in terms of "scientific evidence" is beyond sad and limiting.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Mark Beesley

[Mortal Man]

If the Church doctrine is really open to the idea of death before the fall, then someone really didn't get the memo.

You've deftly proven that "no death before the fall" is a bedrock doctrine and core teaching of the church. A moment's reflection reveals that it cannot be any other way. It all comes down to 1 Cor. 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." If the fall is a myth then the atonement is also a myth.

[cdowis]

So the current curriculum used by all of the Church's missionaries is specifically telling them to read the entry in the Bible dictionary that clearly teaches that there "was no death on this earth for any forms of life before the fall of Adam".

Yes, the doctrine of the church is that death came about by the fall of Adam. We can all agree on that and that is made clear here in the dictionary and many other places. It is the official doctrine of the church, and you can continue to bore us with additional citations , quoting a hundred places where that is taught.

You can also quote references where that doctrine is extended beyond the period of the Fall to the five days of creation, but not so many as you have discovered. So few, that you actually underlined it when you found one.

But for myself, and even a few church leaders, I have no problem supposing that this doctrine allows for death during the creation process and only applies to the sixth day of creation.

And we can all agree that most church members and leaders assume that this "no death" doctrine extends to the entire creation process. But the scriptures are not so clear on that point, and it is an assumption which is open for factual investigation, falling into the category of the genetic background of the amerindians (Lamanites), evolution, and the one hill Cumorah.

It is simply a matter of reality that death was involved in the creation process, and we need to put off that old assumption, as we have done with so many other assumptions.

Edited July 25, 2011 by cdowis

[BCSpace]

Bringing up the 1931 memo isn't any better than bringing up quotes from the Journal of Discourses.

Not even close. The JoD was produced by outside reporting.

More to the point, when learning about the Atonement missionaries are specifically told to study the Bible Dictionary's entry on "Death".

Sure. No one said the Bible Dictionary didn't contain any doctrine at all not worthy of publication elsewhere.

Edited July 25, 2011 by BCSpace

[BCSpace]

If the Church doctrine is really open to the idea of death before the fall, then someone really didn't get the memo.

You've deftly proven that "no death before the fall" is a bedrock doctrine and core teaching of the church. A moment's reflection reveals that it cannot be any other way. It all comes down to 1 Cor. 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." If the fall is a myth then the atonement is also a myth.

I'm certainly not disputing a no death before the Fall doctrine. I accept it 100% and note that it does not conflict with my own hypothesis.

So the current curriculum used by all of the Church's missionaries is specifically telling them to read the entry in the Bible dictionary that clearly teaches that there "was no death on this earth for any forms of life before the fall of Adam".

My hypothesis encompasses that. The Church also tends to separate temporal time from time that has little or nothing to do with us directly such as the doctrine on D&C 77. Notice also the use of 2 Nephi 2:22 as a reference which applies the state of no death to the finished product, not the creative process.

Edited July 25, 2011 by BCSpace

[blarsen]

Really? You want me to answer these questions Ummmm..ok

While there are many ways to preserve ancient organic material, the most common way to form a fossil is through permineralization. This is the process where minerals replace the cell material and then crystallizes and form a solid form in the shape of its former organic host. You really didn't know this? But I should add that there are many ways to preserve ancient organic matter...think Jurassic park...remember the old mans cane? He had a pre-historic insect in amber which is just ancient tree sap that has hardened under pressure.

How long does it take to form a fossil? Well that's like asking how high is a balloon...it depends...some form in a short time period while others take millions of years.

How is their age determined? Through a process known as radiometric age dating...but I seriously doubt you are really interested in these answers...or believe their results.

Good answer; generally accurate. However, there are other ways to create fossils, and there are dating techniques other than radiometric dating. Furthermore, fossils are most often dated by pre-determined relative ages of the horizons they are found in. Radiometric dating is generally used to date-bracket strata containing fossils by dating minerals from igneous-type intrusions or extrusions that are known to be older or younger than the strata in question.

In my case, I try not to worry the issue of reconciliation too much. It's one of those things I put on the back burner. What I do is study and read books that support intelligent design, such as Frank Salisbury's: The Case for Divine Design, which goes into the very low probability choke points that evolution would have to go through to produce life as we know it. So you can see, I'm stuck at a very low level of speculation on these issues.

But from my direct experiece and study, I see too much coherence in the geologic story, leaving little or no room for fossils coming from pieces of older creations/planets, etc.

The Book of Mormon Jacob describes the Fall as Adam and Eve being cast out of the Garden of Eden, which is kind of a timeless place. Maybe you could think of this as a terrestrial realm, where there was no death. They fell bringing death into the world. Whose death? Theirs and the death of what would be their progeny. Being cast out of a paradisiacal place into the lone and dreary world suggests the lone and dreary world was already fully operational, which I think by implication already included death. The fossil record of this lone and dreary world supports this idea, being a record of continual death since its inception.

Reality is, at the very least, things as they really are. Science makes concerted efforts to define these things, especially their causal interactions. HOWEVER, taking a cue from Hugh Nibley's description of how the Egyptians defined reality, something like: Everything we know and everything we don't know, the majority of which may consist of aspects of reality we don't yet have the slightest clue about and therefore can't study using the method of science; at least at this point.

This thread is longer than I thought; just jumping into it. Some interesting ideas/speculation. I'm going ot have to do a little more reading here.

Edited July 25, 2011 by blarsen

[blackstrap]

I just reread the BoA account of the creation,and D&C 77. Most of the creation accounts were about the planning stages.Adam was created physically FIRST,the first flesh,then everything else was created and brought to him to name.According to the D&C Adam was created on the 7th day as so it follows was everything else(animal life?). There is also a lot of talk about planting and placing and giving seeds

etc. I still have a hard time with the notion that God,having already created worlds without number all in various stages of existence,would require that each creation would need to start from scratch when even we miserable humans can store seeds and embryos for use at a later date.

Also,another thought.It has been stated that when Adam fell,that the earth also "fell" from its position near Kolob to where it is now. How long do you think it took for the earth to fall into the correct orbit remembering that it is now a physical planet and should obey the laws of the physical universe?

[BCSpace]

I just reread the BoA account of the creation,and D&C 77. Most of the creation accounts were about the planning stages.Adam was created physically FIRST,the first flesh,then everything else was created and brought to him to name. According to the D&C Adam was created on the 7th day as so it follows was everything else(animal life?). There is also a lot of talk about planting and placing and giving seedsetc

The actual doctrine seems to match your second statement here:

(2-16) Genesis 2:7 . Adam Was the “First Flesh” upon the Earth

Moses 3:7 adds a significant phrase to Genesis 2:7 : “And man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also.” President Joseph Fielding Smith explained what was meant by the term flesh.

“So, Adam was the first man upon the earth, according to the Lord’s statement, and the first flesh also. That needs a little explanation.

“Adam did not come to this earth until it was prepared for him. The animals were here. Plants were here. The Lord did not bring him here to a desolate world, and then bring other creatures. It was all prepared for him, just according to the order that is written in our scriptures, and when it was all ready for Adam he was placed upon the earth.

“Then what is meant by the ‘first flesh’? It is simple when you understand it. Adam was the first of all creatures to fall and become flesh, and flesh in this sense means mortality, and all through our scriptures the Lord speaks of this life as flesh, while we are here in the flesh, so Adam became the first flesh. There was no other mortal creature before him, and there was no mortal death until he brought it, and the scriptures tell you that. It is here written, and that is the gospel of Jesus Christ.” ( Seek Ye Earnestly, pp. 280–81.)

Old Testament Student Manual Genesis 1 - 2 - The Creation

D&C 77:6–7 . Why Was the Book Sealed That John Saw?

“‘The book which John saw’ represented the real history of the world—what the eye of God has seen, what the recording angel has written; and the seven thousand years, corresponding to the seven seals of the Apocalyptic volume, are as seven great days during which Mother Earth will fulfill her mortal mission, laboring six days and resting upon the seventh, her period of sanctification. These seven days do not include the period of our planet’s creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man. They are limited to Earth’s ‘temporal existence,’ that is, to Time, considered as distinct from Eternity.” (Whitney, Saturday Night Thoughts, p. 11.)

Doctrine and Covenants Institute Student ManualSection 77 - Questions and Answers on the Book of Revelation

How long do you think it took for the earth to fall into the correct orbit remembering that it is now a physical planet and should obey the laws of the physical universe?

I don't accept the notion that the earth literally fell from orbiting Kolob to orbiting the Sun. I suppose it is possible that our Sun snagged a planet from a passing star, but I believe that orbital dynamicists have pretty much ruled that out. Instead I accept current scientific thinking about how our solar system came about from the ancient solar nebula etc.

[Rivers]

This doesn't make any sense. How can internal memos be considered officially "published"?

Bringing up the 1931 memo isn't any better than bringing up quotes from the Journal of Discourses. It's a last act of desperation, flailing about for anything that might support a tenuous theory. If an anti-Mormon brought up the JOD or unpublished, 80-year old internal memos in a discussion of Church teachings and doctrines, they would get laughed off the board.

It is quite clear to me that the church is ever-changing in its teachings. Teachings from the JOD compared to commonly taught doctrines today demonstrate this fact.

One of the purposes of correlation was to make all the doctrines as simple as possible. That is why you can't find anything to support death before the fall in any official church publications. This is an issue that would be too complex and murky to be discussed. Official church publications contain mostly milk and not so much meat.

However, I can walk into Desseret Book and find several books that discuss the possibility of death before the fall.

[cinepro]

However, I can walk into Desseret Book and find several books that discuss the possibility of death before the fall.

Interesting. Which books?

[Sevenbak]

Oh boy don't even get me started on the universal flood...Although I will say that you have alot in common with Bruce R. McConkie...he taught that the geological processes that created such geological wonders as the Grand Canyon took place over weeks rather than millions of years...now that is just plain bizaar.

Wow, being lumped into the same category as McConkie, I'll take that as a compliment, thanks, although the shoe latchet metaphor somehow comes to mind.

You bring up McConkie, so you should know that the correlated manuals and publications of the church quote him extensively when it comes to this topic of no death before the fall.

A more recent comparison might be the current Elder Russell M. Nelson, who was a gifted heart surgeon before becoming an apostle. He's been pretty clear about not only no death before the fall, but that Adam was the first to have blood in his veins AFTER the fall.

The irony of course, coming from a studied heart surgeon, is truly profound.

[Sevenbak]

I don't accept the notion that the earth literally fell from orbiting Kolob to orbiting the Sun. I suppose it is possible that our Sun snagged a planet from a passing star, but I believe that orbital dynamicists have pretty much ruled that out. Instead I accept current scientific thinking about how our solar system came about from the ancient solar nebula etc.

I believe it's more than a notion.

Here's a fairly recent Ensign article that goes into it. There are more too, from the current manuals, but this seems pretty sufficient, to me anyway.

“But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the time that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die. Now I, Abraham, saw that it was after the Lord’s time, which was after the time of Kolob; for as yet the Gods had not appointed unto Adam his reckoning” (Abr. 5:13).

President Joseph Fielding Smith stated that in this verse the Lord “revealed to Abraham that Adam was subject to Kolob’s time before his transgression.” 19 According to President Brigham Young, Abraham 5:13 [Abr. 5:13] also means that before the Fall of Adam, the earth was near the very throne of God. But when the Fall occurred, the earth literally fell or moved from the physical presence of God to its present position in our solar system. When all the effects of the Fall of Adam are finally overcome, the earth will literally move back into the presence of God. Here are President Young’s words:

“When the earth was framed and brought into existence and man was placed upon it, it was near the throne of our Father in heaven. … But when man fell, the earth fell into space, and took up its abode in this planetary system. … This is the glory the earth came from, and when it is glorified it will return again unto the presence of the Father, and it will dwell there, and these intelligent beings that I am looking at, if they live worthy of it, will dwell upon this earth.” 20

The power by which the effects of Adam’s Fall are overcome for all created things, including the earth, is the Atonement of Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:40–43; Moses 7:48–62)."

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=6393dbdcc370c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

[thesometimesaint]

Sevenbak:

Cells and blood have been around a lot longer than any proposed Adam and Eve.

http://africascience.blogspot.com/2007/07/two-dinosaurs-from-africa-give-clues-to.html

[Sevenbak]

Sevenbak:

Cells and blood have been around a lot longer than any proposed Adam and Eve.

http://africascience.blogspot.com/2007/07/two-dinosaurs-from-africa-give-clues-to.html

If one accepts current theories, perhaps. But like I stated before, I believe the fall of the earth from the presence of God to it's currently location makes solar decay rates and geological uniformities impossible to pinpoint.

[David T]

A more recent comparison might be the current Elder Russell M. Nelson, who was a gifted heart surgeon before becoming an apostle. He's been pretty clear about not only no death before the fall, but that Adam was the first to have blood in his veins AFTER the fall.

I find it useful to trace the provenance of that teaching. (see the post: No Blood Before The Fall? Where's THAT Come from? )

I don't find it important to work in a deathless physical Eden into world history. While I understand the original tale to be told as an allegory of the expulsion of the Israelite kingship and priesthood from the Temple and Jerusalem, and being sent into exile for disobedience, the story has certainly been recast in modern revelation to teach us about our eternal nature and progression - that we each chose individually to fall physically (we chose to take upon ourselves these earthy bodies), and spiritually (those who have sinned), and that this fall from Eden happens every single hour of every single day.

While I believe in an individual Fall which we all need to look to Christ to fully overcome, I do not believe a single historical event necessitated or was the catalyst of massive structural changes in biology and the earth's very chemistry and makeup. It does not seem to be in tune with God's modus operandi.

I understand that this is not what is currently taught in official publications. I'm not going to twist others' words to make it fit. I'm not going to teach it in Sunday School. And I'm certainly okay with this worldview and still sustaining our leaders, many of which I disagree with on this matter, as true Prophets.

[HeatherAnn]

Sevenbak:

Cells and blood have been around a lot longer than any proposed Adam and Eve.

http://africascience...e-clues-to.html

You can't argue with that!

I realize there are some eternal truths, which apply as much to people thousands of years ago as they do today.

Yet, there are some parables that are made in reference to people who lived differently from us.

I also believe in the "Flynn Effect" - where each generation increases in IQ - & probably spiritual & social progress, as well.

We'd never consult a medical book from even 200 years ago, yet we sometimes take the bible, which was written thousands of years ago, too literally.

Some scriptures are meant to be taken literally, yet many are unique parables, & translation is often questionable.

This supports the need for further revelation.

[thesometimesaint]

Sevenbak:

Our sun is just an average middle aged star that is some 5 Billion years old. The four inner planets are all made of the same stuff. Maybe God transported them all to their current location? Any more Rube Goldbergian ideas?

Edited July 25, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[Sevenbak]

I find it useful to trace the provenance of that teaching. (see the post: No Blood Before The Fall? Where's THAT Come from? )

I don't find it important to work in a deathless physical Eden into world history. While I understand the original tale to be told as an allegory of the expulsion of the Israelite kingship and priesthood from the Temple and Jerusalem, and being sent into exile for disobedience, the story has certainly been recast in modern revelation to teach us about our eternal nature and progression - that we each chose individually to fall physically (we chose to take upon ourselves these earthy bodies), and spiritually (those who have sinned), and that this fall from Eden happens every single hour of every single day.

While I believe in an individual Fall which we all need to look to Christ to fully overcome, I do not believe a single historical event necessitated or was the catalyst of massive structural changes in biology and the earth's very chemistry and makeup. It does not seem to be in tune with God's modus operandi.

I understand that this is not what is currently taught in official publications. I'm not going to twist others' words to make it fit. I'm not going to teach it in Sunday School. And I'm certainly okay with this worldview and still sustaining our leaders, many of which I disagree with on this matter, as true Prophets.

Thanks for the link. More prophets than I realized have taught the principle. It's current correlation in the manuals what's most important, imo.

[Sevenbak]

Sevenbak:

Our sun is just an average middle aged star that is some 5 Billion years old. The four inner planets are all made of the same stuff. Maybe God transported them all to their current location? Any more Rube Goldbergian ideas?

I don't believe our sun has always been our sun. That's not what the Church teaches. As to what material everything is made of, God made it all, so I don't see this as an issue at all.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Sevenbak