Can People Change?-Elder Uchtdorf'S Patience Talk

[Luigi]

In April 2010 Elder Uchtdorf started his talk by citing a study done in the 1960's involving children and their ability to put off immediate gratification for a future reward. 4 year old children were given the option of taking a marshmallow placed in front of them or waiting for 15 minutes and receiving two marshmallows. Only 30% succeeded in waiting the full 15 minutes. The scientist tracked the progress of these children through life and found those who waited longer were more successful in academics, careers and even relationships and those who struggled to wait had less success and other behavioral problems. Elder Uchtdorf went on to say that this demonstrates how patience is a virtue that will have positive impact on all aspects of our lives.

Yet, there seems a point that is demonstrated just as clearly from this study if, as Elder Uchtdorf implies, the subsequent success or failure of these children later in life is because of their patience-what in economics is often referred to as time preference or discounting (valueing greater future reward over lesser present reward). That point is that at 4 years of age individuals had already established their level of patience-that you can predict an individual's ability later in life to discipline themselves and to work for a future goal based on their character at 4 years of age.

The irony is that in the talk Elder Uchtdorf suggests this study shows the importance for each of us to develop patience. Yet the study actually implies that patience is not developed at all-you either have it or you don't. Thoughts?

[Bernard Gui]

I've learned patience in the school of hard knocks.

Bernard

[Calm]

In April 2010 Elder Uchtdorf started his talk by citing a study done in the 1960's involving children and their ability to put off immediate gratification for a future reward. 4 year old children were given the option of taking a marshmallow placed in front of them or waiting for 15 minutes and receiving two marshmallows. Only 30% succeeded in waiting the full 15 minutes. The scientist tracked the progress of these children through life and found those who waited longer were more successful in academics, careers and even relationships and those who struggled to wait had less success and other behavioral problems. Elder Uchtdorf went on to say that this demonstrates how patience is a virtue that will have positive impact on all aspects of our lives.

Yet, there seems a point that is demonstrated just as clearly from this study if, as Elder Uchtdorf implies, the subsequent success or failure of these children later in life is because of their patience-what in economics is often referred to as time preference or discounting (valueing greater future reward over lesser present reward). That point is that at 4 years of age individuals had already established their level of patience-that you can predict an individual's ability later in life to discipline themselves and to work for a future goal based on their character at 4 years of age.

The irony is that in the talk Elder Uchtdorf suggests this study shows the importance for each of us to develop patience. Yet the study actually implies that patience is not developed at all-you either have it or you don't. Thoughts?

I'd like to see the numbers before drawing any conclusions, especially just how significant the correlation was though even with a very high correlation, there are still problems making the kind of conclusion you are above based solely on the information obtainable from the study.

Even if one could conclude that one's level of patience is set at the age of four, it does not eliminate the possibility that prior to that time the level of patience cannot be altered. Then there is the possibility that the same things that caused the level of patience to be low or high at the age of four continue to be present in the child's life for a significant longer time period and that it is the reinforcement that is the actual determining factor for long term behaviour and thus if such situational influences were changed, the long term behaviour could be changed as well.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The irony is that in the talk Elder Uchtdorf suggests this study shows the importance for each of us to develop patience. Yet the study actually implies that patience is not developed at all-you either have it or you don't. Thoughts?

I don't think the study implies that patience cannot be developed. However lets say you are correct. The study is flawed from my perspective as I have learned to develop patience. Do you think that it is true that one cannot develop patients?

[KevinG]

It is possible for people to learn (change) at an older age. It is just more difficult to change behavior than it is to establish it at a younger age.

[Luigi]

I'd like to see the numbers before drawing any conclusions, especially just how significant the correlation was though even with a very high correlation, there are still problems making the kind of conclusion you are above based solely on the information obtainable from the study.

Even if one could conclude that one's level of patience is set at the age of four, it does not eliminate the possibility that prior to that time the level of patience cannot be altered. Then there is the possibility that the same things that caused the level of patience to be low or high at the age of four continue to be present in the child's life for a significant longer time period and that it is the reinforcement that is the actual determining factor for long term behaviour and thus if such situational influences were changed, the long term behaviour could be changed as well.

So it is possible that as you infer the factors are environmental but that those environmental factors remain relatively stable throughout the child's life (e.g. the 4 year old with a relatively stable family life would probably have a relatively stable family life at 10 or 12). However even then you would be inferring patience is a result of environment and not the individual's choices.

You are right, however, that the example Elder Uchtdorf shares does not give a correlation and that would be an interesting piece to evaluate.

[Luigi]

I don't think the study implies that patience cannot be developed. However lets say you are correct. The study is flawed from my perspective as I have learned to develop patience. Do you think that it is true that one cannot develop patients?

Can you give an examples that would show how you have 'developed' patience?

(This question would also apply to Bernard Gui who claims to have developed patience).

[Calm]

However even then you would be inferring patience is a result of environment and not the individual's choices.

That would depend on what you mean by choice. And a person's environment is influenced by their choices just as a person is influenced by their environment.

[Calm]

I think acting as if patience is some global attribute that never varies is problematic in and of itself. I am very patient in some cases and have little to no patience in others and which is which has varied over the years.

If the children were given something besides marshmallows, it is possible that some of those who didn't wait might have been willing to wait longer (perhaps they didn't like marshmallows that much so it wasn't worth the time to wait for another one but they would have waited for pizza or something else....my son could be bribed to do almost anything for legos, nothing else would work, even money he could buy the legos with even late into his teens, legos just have some deep emotional appeal to his soul.)

Edited July 19, 2011 by calmoriah

[elguanteloko]

In April 2010 Elder Uchtdorf started his talk by citing a study done in the 1960's involving children and their ability to put off immediate gratification for a future reward. 4 year old children were given the option of taking a marshmallow placed in front of them or waiting for 15 minutes and receiving two marshmallows. Only 30% succeeded in waiting the full 15 minutes. The scientist tracked the progress of these children through life and found those who waited longer were more successful in academics, careers and even relationships and those who struggled to wait had less success and other behavioral problems. Elder Uchtdorf went on to say that this demonstrates how patience is a virtue that will have positive impact on all aspects of our lives.

Yet, there seems a point that is demonstrated just as clearly from this study if, as Elder Uchtdorf implies, the subsequent success or failure of these children later in life is because of their patience-what in economics is often referred to as time preference or discounting (valueing greater future reward over lesser present reward). That point is that at 4 years of age individuals had already established their level of patience-that you can predict an individual's ability later in life to discipline themselves and to work for a future goal based on their character at 4 years of age.

The irony is that in the talk Elder Uchtdorf suggests this study shows the importance for each of us to develop patience. Yet the study actually implies that patience is not developed at all-you either have it or you don't. Thoughts?

So, did those people consciously try methods to better their "patience"? I don't see how some people not changing means you (or them) can't change.

[Luigi]

If the children were given something besides marshmallows, it is possible that some of those who didn't wait might have been willing to wait longer (perhaps they didn't like marshmallows that much so it wasn't worth the time to wait for another one but they would have waited for pizza or something else....my son could be bribed to do almost anything for legos, nothing else would work, even money he could buy the legos with even late into his teens, legos just have some deep emotional appeal to his soul.)

But this infers there should be little or no correlation as well to later attributes in life if the ones who waited the longest just happened to dislike marshmallows.

[Kevin Christensen]

In April 2010 Elder Uchtdorf started his talk by citing a study done in the 1960's involving children and their ability to put off immediate gratification for a future reward.

SNIP

Much as I usually like Elder Uchdorf's talk, I find myself thinking of innate personality differences as described in the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator. So I think the experiment describes SJ versus SP temperament in action, as measured against SJ standards of success.

Look here, for example:

http://www.typelogic.com/

I'm INFP.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[Ahab]

Much as I usually like Elder Uchdorf's talk, I find myself thinking of innate personality differences as described in the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator. So I think the experiment describes SJ versus SP temperament in action, as measured against SJ standards of success.

Look here, for example:

http://www.typelogic.com/

I'm INFP.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

Earlier in my life I was INTJ and now I'm ENTP.

Sometimes I revert back to my old INTJ self, though. Oh well.

[zerinus]

In April 2010 Elder Uchtdorf started his talk by citing a study done in the 1960's involving children and their ability to put off immediate gratification for a future reward. 4 year old children were given the option of taking a marshmallow placed in front of them or waiting for 15 minutes and receiving two marshmallows. Only 30% succeeded in waiting the full 15 minutes. The scientist tracked the progress of these children through life and found those who waited longer were more successful in academics, careers and even relationships and those who struggled to wait had less success and other behavioral problems. Elder Uchtdorf went on to say that this demonstrates how patience is a virtue that will have positive impact on all aspects of our lives.

Yet, there seems a point that is demonstrated just as clearly from this study if, as Elder Uchtdorf implies, the subsequent success or failure of these children later in life is because of their patience-what in economics is often referred to as time preference or discounting (valueing greater future reward over lesser present reward). That point is that at 4 years of age individuals had already established their level of patience-that you can predict an individual's ability later in life to discipline themselves and to work for a future goal based on their character at 4 years of age.

The irony is that in the talk Elder Uchtdorf suggests this study shows the importance for each of us to develop patience. Yet the study actually implies that patience is not developed at all-you either have it or you don't. Thoughts?

While some character traits (good or bad) can be inherited, it does not mean that it cannot be developed or acquired later in life. Paul writes, "but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;" (Romans 5:4-3). But I like the English proverb best: "Patience is a virtue, seldom found in women, never found in men!"

[Ahab]

While some character traits (good or bad) can be inherited, it does not mean that it cannot be developed or acquired later in life. Paul writes, "but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;" (Romans 5:4-3). But I like the English proverb best: "Patience is a virtue, seldom found in women, never found in men!"

I have patience. There's just a limit to how much of it I have.

[CV75]

The irony is that in the talk Elder Uchtdorf suggests this study shows the importance for each of us to develop patience. Yet the study actually implies that patience is not developed at all-you either have it or you don't. Thoughts?

I believe both: 1) that you are born with it or without it, and 2) that you can develop it or loose it.

The natural man may have it or not, but I believe it can be developed, especially as a gift of the Spirit. I think patience can also be developed with effort, self-control, any needed supports, etc. So while we may or may not have it at birth, or later on due to certain choices we make, we are expected to develop it and we can. If our struggles are with other things besides poor academic performance, and regardless of the role our impatience plays in them, these also can be dealt with in a faithful manner.

I only count children as "natural men" in the sense that they are born with traits they have not determined (at least in this life) as a consequence of the Fall.

Edited July 20, 2011 by CV75

[Libs]

I agree that it's both. We are born with a predisposed nature, but it can also change over time (for better or worse).

[fatherofone]

I agree that it's both. We are born with a predisposed nature, but it can also change over time (for better or worse).

isn't that supposedly why we are here to conquer our weakness's?

[zerinus]

I have patience. There's just a limit to how much of it I have.

There is also a difference between having patience, and testing somebody else's patience. Some people can't always tell the difference between the two.

[elguanteloko]

I agree that it's both. We are born with a predisposed nature, but it can also change over time (for better or worse).

Plus, we can simply say it is in our nature to be able to change it. I don't need to be able to change of body to be able to change MY body. I don't see why my mind would be something different.

Edited July 20, 2011 by elguanteloko

[zerinus]

I believe both: 1) that you are born with it or without it, and 2) that you can develop it or loose it.

The natural man may have it or not, but I believe it can be developed, especially as a gift of the Spirit. I think patience can also be developed with effort, self-control, any needed supports, etc. So while we may or may not have it at birth, or later on due to certain choices we make, we are expected to develop it and we can. If our struggles are with other things besides poor academic performance, and regardless of the role our impatience plays in them, these also can be dealt with in a faithful manner.

I only count children as "natural men" in the sense that they are born with traits they have not determined (at least in this life) as a consequence of the Fall.

I think that patience is a necessary extension of faith and hope: "But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it." (Romans 8:25.)

[Duncan]

In 1996 I was ESFJ but i don't know what that means or if I am like that now, but I am impatient kind of with situations not necessarily with people-as in I have a strong displeasure towards waiting for certain mail to come!

[KevinG]

A quick primer on the Myers Briggs. It is based on Jungian psychological types and not an indication of talent or behaviors as much as it is an indication of preference as how we approach the world.

E I Extrovert vs. Introvert

Where you engage the world and derive energy from, outside sources or internally. An extrovert will ask a question and answer it for themselves then thank you for your help before you even said a word. An introvert will think long and hard for the perfect answer while the conversation has already moved on.

S N Sensing vs. Intuition

A senser perceives things in their physical state an intuitive sees things as symbols or meaning. The senser sees and apple and thinks crunchy, red, sweet. The intuitive sees and apple and thinks, fruit, nourishment, Adam and Eve...

T F Thinking vs. Feeling

A thinker says "if it is fair then everyone should feel good about it." A feeler thinks "if everyone feels good about it then it is fair."

J P

Judging vs. Perceiving

Judging looks for just enough data to make a decision then adjusts to any new convincing data (which can sometimes be never). A perceiver collects information and is hesitant to make a decision until they have enough data (which can sometimes be never).

These are preferences (default modes) and do not always drive actual behavior. In fact under duress the shadow self will emerge. For example an intuitive feeler who is all about trusting relationships can find forgiveness difficult when betrayed.

Myers Briggs or Jungian types hardly ever change (validated MBTI done correctly - not internet imitations done at home) but there are exceptions. Sometimes preferences can change as a result of a significant or traumatic event. Extroverts tend to move towards Introversion as they age. Especially those who weren't really clear (high score) on their preferences to start with.

Females tend to favor F over T but the authentic test has a built in +1 to adjust for gender bias.

Daddy G is an ENFJ

Edited July 20, 2011 by DaddyG

[KevinG]

In 1996 I was ESFJ but i don't know what that means or if I am like that now, but I am impatient kind of with situations not necessarily with people-as in I have a strong displeasure towards waiting for certain mail to come!

The SJ play off of each other and make you a "super judger". Good for a jet pilot who needs to make quick decisions. Not so good while waiting for the mail. The F (relationship focus) explains your patience with people over situations.

[Duncan]

The SJ play off of each other and make you a "super judger". Good for a jet pilot who needs to make quick decisions. Not so good while waiting for the mail. The F (relationship focus) explains your patience with people over situations.

That is interesting! I bought some stuff...online or whatever...and ack-attack! I just want it now! I don't like when I check the mail and its not there, which means obviously waiting another 24 hours. But when it comes I wouldn't throw a fit with the postal services fellow