Praise To The Man!

[Scott Lloyd]

Hey BB. Long ago when I use to attend SM with my wife, I use to play this game in my head in counting how many times the name or Jesus (or Christ) came up in F&T meetings vs. the name JS. I felt I shouldn't count the obligatory (in the name of Jesus Christ) that accompanied the end of every prayer by every faithful member since that IMO was programmed into everyone. After a year of listening to F&T meetings as a non-member, the name of Joseph Smith came up much more frequemtly than the name of Jesus (or Christ). If I counted the ending of the prayer, it was essentially a draw in amount of time each name was used.

IMO, it's not difficult for a non-member to reach the wrong conclusions. The factor that non-members should consider though is what members tell them in that they do not put JS on the same pedestal as Christ.

My 2 cents

It's difficult to address anecdotes as evidence, because anecdotes can't be documented.

However, a couple of years ago, somebody on this board alleged that there are more references in general conference to Joseph Smith than to Christ. This is something that, if true, can be documented, and fairly easily, because the transcripts of the conference proceedings are published on line.

So I went back to the previous general conference and did a search on references to Christ, comparing them to references to Joseph Smith. It wasn't even close. The Christ references far outnumbered — by more than double, if I recall correctly — the references to Joseph Smith. (And yes, I excluded the instances where speakers closed their talks in the name of Jesus Christ.)

In short, people with opinions such as that of fatherofone are so jaded that they will not listen to reason, such as what I pointed out earlier, that the role of Joseph Smith as a prophet and his relationship to Jesus Christ are clearly spelled out in the opening two lines of the hymn, to wit:

Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah,

Jesus anointed that prophet and seer.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[fatherofone]

It's difficult to address anecdotes as evidence, because anecdotes can't be documented.

However, a couple of years ago, somebody on this board alleged that there are more references general conference to Joseph Smith than to Christ. This is something that, if true, canbe documented and fairly easily, because the transcripts of the conference proceedings are published on line.

So I went back to the previous general conference and did a search on references to Christ, comparing them to references to Joseph Smith. It wasn't even close. The Christ references far outnumbered — by more than double, if I recall correctly — the references to Joseph Smith. (And yes, I excluded the instances where speakers closed their talks in the name of Jesus Christ.)

In short, people with opinions such as that of fatherofone are so jaded that they will not listen to reason, such as what I pointed out earlier, that the role of Joseph Smith as a prophet and his relationship to Jesus Christ are clearly spelled out in the opening two lines of the hymn, to wit:

Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah,

Jesus anointed that prophet and seer.

yup I guess I would be jaded

[blueadept]

I actually agree with your post Scott. I've also experienced that in regards to GC vs. F&T meetings that they're really not comparable. The name Jesus Christ comes up much more frequently in GC from my experience. The phenomena only seems to apply to F&T meetings where there is no script in my experience.

There was a weird thread about what LDS members do during SMs. I guess the gig is up in regards to what I did...

Edited July 6, 2011 by blueadept

[Scott Lloyd]

yup I guess I would be jaded

More's the pity.

[Scott Lloyd]

I actually agree with your post Scott. I've also experienced that in regards to GC vs. F&T meetings that they're really not comparable. The name Jesus Christ comes up much more frequently in GC from my experience. The phenomena only seems to apply to F&T meetings where there is no script in my experience.

There was a weird thread about what LDS members do during SMs. I guess the gig is up in regards to what I did...

You've piqued my curiosity. I might try the same exercise next month when we have fast and testimony meeting.

[fatherofone]

More's the pity.

not sure that is too pity....perhaps it's best this way

[blueadept]

You've piqued my curiosity. I might try the same exercise next month when we have fast and testimony meeting.

I would suggest doing a 3 month average at least.

[Anijen]

I applied blueadepts test about three weeks ago it was Jesus Christ or Savior over Joseph Smith by a huge margin like 31 to 2, This was not a F&T meeting, I have counted before that time too, the only time Joseph even came close to that of Jesus was when the meeting was close to June 27 but still the Savior won. I challenge those on the board to test it this Sunday and see whose name is mentioned more.

However having said that, are missionaries teach of Jesus Christ as it is his church, They teach of prophets and apostles today under the command and service of Jesus Christ. Anyone who says we worship Joseph no matter how active they are or once were is simply wrong.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Anijen

[blueadept]

Now I'm really amused. Let's see how many takers we have who can report their findings next week. Wasn't F&T last week though? I'm happily out of the loop.

Edited July 6, 2011 by blueadept

[bluebell]

Hey BB. Long ago when I use to attend SM with my wife, I use to play this game in my head in counting how many times the name or Jesus (or Christ) came up in F&T meetings vs. the name JS. I felt I shouldn't count the obligatory (in the name of Jesus Christ) that accompanied the end of every prayer by every faithful member since that IMO was programmed into everyone. After a year of listening to F&T meetings as a non-member, the name of Joseph Smith came up much more frequemtly than the name of Jesus (or Christ). If I counted the ending of the prayer, it was essentially a draw in amount of time each name was used.

IMO, it's not difficult for a non-member to reach the wrong conclusions. The factor that non-members should consider though is what members tell them in that they do not put JS on the same pedestal as Christ.

My 2 cents

Did you do this same comparison on other sundays, or just during F&T? What about during the other two hours of church?

I don't doubt your experience at all, i just think that it would be problematic to use 1 hour of church a month to determine who the LDS membership spoke more about when there are a total of 12-15 hours of church services a month.

F&T sundays are unique because they tend to be a time when a lot of people feel they need testify to the truth of things that pertain specifically to being LDS-things like prophets, the BOM, continuing revelation, etc. In my experience, this is because a lot of people-for good or ill-see their testimony of Jesus Christ as a given-something everyone already knows about-and so focus on things that separate LDS from other Christian religions.

It really is an interesting phenomenon in the church, the way we so often focus on why we are different from other religions when talking amongst ourselves about our beliefs. It's prevelant in my experience though.

With converts, i think they sometimes don't focus their testimony around Jesus because they brought their testimony of Christ with them from other churches and so they often forget to include it when sharing their feelings about those things specific to the LDS church because they are so focused on what they see as the new blessings in their life.

Being Catholic and so often accused of worshipping Mary because of her prevelance in Catholic rituals and prayers, i know that you understand how easy it is for people to misunderstand the way that a member of another religion feels about a religious figure. As i'm sure you've experienced, when people have made up their minds that you worship 'this person' or 'that person', there is little that anyone can do to change it. I appreciate your willingness to allow members to speak for themselves.

[Scott Lloyd]

Now I'm really amused. Let's see how many takers we have who can report their findings next week.

You specified fast and testimony meeting. For most wards, that won't be this Sunday, as testimony meeting is typically held on the first Sunday of the month.

But your suggestion of a three-month testing period is probably wise, as some meetings have specific themes that might skew the results — although that's not so much the case with fast and testimony meetings, which are less structured in their content.

I have been asked to speak in sacrament meeting on July 24, Pioneer Day. My assigned topic is "Our Pioneer Heritage." But you may rest assured I intend to tie the theme to Christ and to do it explicitly: to convey clearly that the Mormon pioneers of 1847 and thereafter were motivated by their faith in Jesus Christ and by their self-concept as the latter-day covenant people established and led by Christ; that Jesus Christ guided them in their wilderness trek, just as Jesus Christ (Jehovah) guided ancient Israel in its exodus from Egypt and in its wilderness wanderings. That the pioneers held fast to their faith, endured persecution and remained a cohesive body that ultimately flourished in their wilderness settlement all because Joseph Smith "communed with Jehovah" and "Jesus anointed that prophet and seer" and blessed him "to open the last dispensation," just as the hymn states. That our pioneer heritage today is to perpetuate this unflagging faith in and devotion to Jesus Christ and the establishment of His kingdom on the earth, as we are still the covenant people of Christ with the responsibility to invite all to come unto Christ preparatory to His return to the earth in glory.

Somehow, though, I doubt that would satisfy individuals with attitudes such as fatherofone, who would probably not be content unless and until every reference to Joseph Smith and the Restoration were expunged from our worship services and discourse.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[MorningStar]

some do

Some Mormons worship America? We pray to America? We take the sacrament in remembrance of America?

[Pahoran]

just makes you realize who's church it really is...

Indeed it does. When we realise that Joseph's only claim to fame is that Jesus spoke to him, and chose him to do a specific work in His name, it makes it abundantly clear whose Church it is.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Doctor Ninja]

I go fairly regularly, I only attend sacrament meeting. I guess I just believe that if Joseph Smith did indeed restore the true church, that the church we currently attend is still true to what he restored, there is no new revelation or scripture, the members are all about themselves, and if Christ was ever involved with this church he has long since abandoned it.

"I guess" is not convincing, not even to yourself.

Why not just go to the Church that has the Lord in it then? And definitely let us know when you find that Church.

[Scott Lloyd]

not sure that is too pity....perhaps it's best this way

What would be best would be for you to return to the fold of Christ and the Church He restored through the instrumentality of Joseph Smith.

If I can help, I can be reached here: slloyd123@live.com

Edited July 6, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

I actually agree with your post Scott. I've also experienced that in regards to GC vs. F&T meetings that they're really not comparable. The name Jesus Christ comes up much more frequently in GC from my experience. The phenomena only seems to apply to F&T meetings where there is no script in my experience.

I think in F&T meetings that one person can bring to mind ideas that then percolate in others' brains as they get up to speak and therefore they may focus on the same subjects as well. I've seen this happen quite a bit. Also different wards can have different habits, I would not be surprised if there were some out there who focused on Joseph Smith---perhaps the leadership felt a need to do so for some reason, perhaps to emphasize one easily understood difference between LDS and nonLDS---the existence of a prophet and the restoration. However, I have personally never been in a ward (and I've been in tons) where the F&T conversation focused more on Joseph Smith than Christ as even if people spoke about both, most would speak much longer about their relationship with Christ and his effect on them than JS's effect on them or the church.

[Calm]

A better test is to time how much time is spent talking about Joseph in comparison to Christ, not just the mention of names, though that is less subjective of a measure.

[blueadept]

I like your assessment Calmoriah. The location of your ward could definitely be a factor and I believe it's true that the tempo is definitely set by bishoporic since the bishop or one of his counselors tends to set the tone. It's not uncommon to have one or two members who ALWAYS give their testimony which I'm sure I have memorized even though it's been years since I've heard it. Even though the ward I was involved with wasn't small, I've heard of wards that were small to the point that pretty much everyone gave their testimony every month. IMO, I believe my ward tended to speak about their thankfulness of the Restoration since there are many active faiths in my community and there seemed to be a need to separate oneself from the rest of the Christian faiths. Just a thought.

[Bernard Gui]

Indeed it does. When we realise that Joseph's only claim to fame is that Jesus spoke to him, and chose him to do a specific work in His name, it makes it abundantly clear whose Church it is.

I have ever heard a Latter-Day Saint thank Joseph Smith for providing the atonement, healing an illness, forgiving sins, rescuing a wayward child, giving unearned blessings, answering prayers, or providing comfort and peace. On the contrary, I have heard numerous LDS thank Jesus and Father for those things.

Bernard

Bernard

Edited July 7, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[fatherofone]

"I guess" is not convincing, not even to yourself.

Why not just go to the Church that has the Lord in it then? And definitely let us know when you find that Church.

no such place

[Doctor Ninja]

no such place

Ah okay! So you just go for the small nutritional snack (bread and water) since it has no meaning to you anyway.

[bluebell]

Ah okay! So you just go for the small nutritional snack (bread and water) since it has no meaning to you anyway.

If i'm remembering correctly, FoO goes because of his wife and kids. I give him kudos for it.

[Scott Lloyd]

A better test is to time how much time is spent talking about Joseph in comparison to Christ, not just the mention of names, though that is less subjective of a measure.

True. And when you consider that Christ underlies all the doctrinal teachings of Mormonism, it could be argued that we spend virtually all the time talking about Christ. See, for example, my post about my plans for my upcoming sacrament meeting talk on "Our Pioneer Heritage."

When non-members and others claim we neglect Christ in our public worship and discourse, I think that is due, in part at least, to their own failure to understand, recognize or acknowledge that Christ is integrated into all our doctrinal teachings. An example, of course, is the hymn that is the subject of this thread. It is about Joseph Smith but in the context of his relationship to and divine commission from Jesus Christ.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[fatherofone]

If i'm remembering correctly, FoO goes because of his wife and kids. I give him kudos for it.

that is exactly the reason, I want to set a good example

[LeSellers]

that is exactly the reason, I want to set a good example

What I call "righteous hypocrisy".

Lehi