Be Careful What You Look For ...

[Magyar]

Clearing out old paperwork yesterday, I found a talk I had kept for many years, from a fellow missionary in the MTC. He had been a Protestant minister, realized the folly of that tribe, and become converted to the Restoration. He shared quite a powerful testimony and wrote at great length, with abundant scriptural corroboration, about the validity of the truth claims of the Church. Went on to serve a mission in Poland.

So I thought I would track him down. Wish I hadn't. The former Elder C. has now left the church and become a pyschic medium -- tarot, tea leaves and such. )0: So now what do I do with his testimonial dissertation?

Edited June 25, 2011 by Magyar

[blackstrap]

Aren't people interesting? There is power in the "dark" side.Perhaps he didn't find enough power where he was .Perhaps he was "Simon"ized. Until a few years ago I had no clue that the Enduring to the End stuff was really the hardest part of the gospel.

[blueadept]

While the virtues of faith, hope and charity (love) are critical for a Christian, perseverence is a virtue not to be taken lightly IMHO.

[Nathair/|\]

Clearing out old paperwork yesterday, I found a talk I had kept for many years, from a fellow missionary in the MTC. He had been a Protestant minister, realized the folly of that tribe, and become converted to the Restoration. He shared quite a powerful testimony and wrote at great length, with abundant scriptural corroboration, about the validity of the truth claims of the Church. Went on to serve a mission in Poland.

So I thought I would track him down. Wish I hadn't. The former Elder C. has now left the church and become a pyschic medium -- tarot, tea leaves and such. )0: So now what do I do with his testimonial dissertation?

Why did he think he needed to leave the Church to do that? Abraham, Joseph in Egypt, and Joseph Smith all did similar things. There are plenty of good Latter-Day Saints who are involved in magical traditions.

[Duncan]

Sorro to hear that. I knew a guy from around here in a very similar situation, he was even written about in the New Era or Ensign, served a mission to Utah and the whole thing,met all these big people in the Church, popular guy coming back and doing all these firesides and, slated to be a CES person, got married in the Temple (later divorced) and he became a nutbag and went overboard in his devotion and now he is in and out of living with older women and is totally and completely inactive and it is so sad. I would probably keep it, maybe give it to him and see what happens.

[Mike Reed]

GASP! HE HAS TURNED TO THE DARK SIDE!!! THE HORROR!!!

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Ahem...

Sometimes people just decide the Church isn't for them anymore. What is the big deal?

[Bernard Gui]

This is why making poster people in the Church is not such a good idea.

Bernard

[Stargazer]

Oh, yes.

A more-or-less former friend of mine who was a faithful member was tracked down by a daughter of his whom he had never known he had (early youthful adventure many years before he joined the church), and their reunion was featured on some TV show or other. This led to him rediscovering the mother of his newly discovered daughter, and he decided that he liked her better than his wife of thirty years. Got excommunicated, and my informant on the High Council said he appeared at his disciplinary council justifying his adultery using scriptures and defying them. Of course they exed him. Really messy divorce, too, with all his children, including the newly-discovered daughter, walking out of his life. I haven't seen him for over ten years, and don't ever expect to. It was really messy.

[Questing Beast]

A missionary comp contacted me last year. First news of him in nearly forty years. I was gratified and surprised to learn that he's fully involved in the LDS faith, is a high priest, has been married three times but with no divorces (been widowed twice!). Of all my comps, I expected to find out (if and when I ever did) that he'd fallen off the deep end and really messed up his life: his youth was dissolute and dangerous, etc. He was a convert, the only one in his family. He was the hardest comp to get along with, and the one I was together with the longest, nearly a quarter of my entire mission. I liked him a lot, but he was difficult, and a bit scary. I find him, now, to be quite as crazy and engaging as ever, and solidly religious within the Church, despite entertaining quite a few notions that are at least as unorthodox as my own....

[Magyar]

Why did he think he needed to leave the Church to do that? Abraham, Joseph in Egypt, and Joseph Smith all did similar things. There are plenty of good Latter-Day Saints who are involved in magical traditions.

Good point, Nathair. The Bible itself seems to present a conflict. On the one hand, as you note, many of the patriarchs used various implements of divination. Christians who profess to be horrified that the Prophet Joseph would also use materials of divination, obviously don't read their Bibles too well. Yet, other passages of the Bible speak strongly against magical practices. Isaiah, for example, warned against consulting "wizards who peep and mutter."

[HeatherAnn]

Good point, Nathair. The Bible itself seems to present a conflict. On the one hand, as you note, many of the patriarchs used various implements of divination. Christians who profess to be horrified that the Prophet Joseph would also use materials of divination, obviously don't read their Bibles too well. Yet, other passages of the Bible speak strongly against magical practices. Isaiah, for example, warned against consulting "wizards who peep and mutter."

Good points, too.

A friend of mine was raised "fanatical" Christian - shame & fear based, which created an aversion to Christianity, but a spiritual hole.

So, he searched. He felt spiritually guided to a book about runes & began studying the history & symbolism & became excited after feeling spiritually helped & guided through applying runes.

Then he wrote a book about runes & his spiritual journey.

I was very skeptical - didn't read his book for a while after he sent it to me, because I was taught that any divination tools were of the devil.

Then after I read it, I realized the stigmatism regarding divination tools wasn't completely accurate.

For one thing, many of us regularly use divination tools... fasting for an answer in prayer, priesthood blessings, patriarchal blessings, celestial room/temple ordinances, sacrament, biblomacy (where you open the bible (or other scriptures) & whatever you open to- take it as a message or answer).

I also realized we all use symbolism (as I speak in typing this) - it's a HUGE part of our lives.

We all are entitled to personal revelation... which we often use symbolism for (personally I don't believe in others getting revelation for us, besides those responsible for us, so I don't believe in psychic or card "readings")

What matters most in any spiritual beliefs & associated rituals is the spirit it's done in... that's why they say to prepare yourself before going to the temple.

When you fear something, you have a less pleasant experience. When you love & hold something sacred, you have a more pleasant experience.

And I think it's important, no matter what divination tools we use, that we sense what is uplifting & what's not for us, & keep our own goals & priorities in mind.

Edited June 26, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[jo1952]

If I were you, I would make a copy of the paperwork you found, and send it to him; without any attached comments or judgment. Just let the cards fall where they may, so to speak.

BTW, after reading all of the comments so far, it seems that many think that because a person has left the LDS Church that they are not likely going to find their names written in the Book of Life (not actually stated; but certainly implied). Since it is our goal to find truth wherever we can find it, who are we to judge if God may be leading some to other areas in order for them to accomplish His purposes not only for that person, but also for the benefit of others. God works in mysterious ways in order to try to get us to return to Him. Who knows where our journey will ultimately take us while we are still in the flesh? The body of Christ is everywhere; not just in the LDS Church. What is unique to the LDS is that we have the only living Prophet who guides and directs the affairs of the organized and Restored Church. We have the keys to the Kingdom; the power and the authority of the Priesthood. We are responsible for, and take seriously, the work being done in the Temples on behalf of all of mankind. However, there are other prophets and leaders whom Father raises up to guide and direct mankind all over the earth. The Holy Ghost works inside and outside of the Church, though the receiving of the Holy Ghost as a constant companion is done by the laying of hands by someone with the power and authority to do so. Yet it is evident He still guides and directs and witnesses to everyone on the earth who seeks God. Also, there is much power in faith where miracles can happen as a result. We do not hold exclusivity to truth or to faith and the power of faith, or to the witnessing power and guidance of the Holy Ghost.

Regards,

jo

[Deborah]

If I were you, I would make a copy of the paperwork you found, and send it to him; without any attached comments or judgment. Just let the cards fall where they may, so to speak.

That was my thought. Remind him of what he once believed.

[Calm]

For one thing, many of us regularly use divination tools...

The weather report.....

[Mudcat]

Clearing out old paperwork yesterday, I found a talk I had kept for many years, from a fellow missionary in the MTC. He had been a Protestant minister, realized the folly of that tribe, and become converted to the Restoration. He shared quite a powerful testimony and wrote at great length, with abundant scriptural corroboration, about the validity of the truth claims of the Church. Went on to serve a mission in Poland.

So I thought I would track him down. Wish I hadn't. The former Elder C. has now left the church and become a pyschic medium -- tarot, tea leaves and such. )0: So now what do I do with his testimonial dissertation?

I would keep it, if it was good. It certainly provides a good object lesson.

It reminds me of a scenario in my own EV setting.

As a youth in my church, we had a very dynamic youth/music minister. In part, he is the reason I am a bassist. He wanted to put a Contemporary Christian band together... and no one played bass, so I volunteered and purchased one with some summer job money I had saved up. This was in the mid 80's. We were successful to a degree, we played around our local area in different things. By the next summer we were doing the music for the SBC summer Bible camp on the coast as well as some other smaller camps on the FL panhandle.

He grew the youth program at church, as well. Lots of kids were won to Christ through his efforts.

........

I became agnostic for a number of years in my late teens, but when I came to faith in my late 20's and returned to church, I inquired about the guy. Apparently he moved from our church to one in TX, he came out of the closet, left his wife and child and sings in gay bars as a cross dresser and has substance abuse problems.

To me, it was good example of what God can do with us when we are willing to follow him and what we can do to ourselves when we go our own way.

Edited June 27, 2011 by Mudcat

[TAO]

Noes! Positive vote quota =(.

[sorry for off topic]

[Questing Beast]

The weather report.....

Google weather icons -

[Lightbearer]

Clearing out old paperwork yesterday, I found a talk I had kept for many years, from a fellow missionary in the MTC. He had been a Protestant minister, realized the folly of that tribe, and become converted to the Restoration. He shared quite a powerful testimony and wrote at great length, with abundant scriptural corroboration, about the validity of the truth claims of the Church. Went on to serve a mission in Poland.

So I thought I would track him down. Wish I hadn't. The former Elder C. has now left the church and become a pyschic medium -- tarot, tea leaves and such. )0: So now what do I do with his testimonial dissertation?

The following scripture came to mind as I read this OP:

(2 Nephi 4:34) "O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm."

That is why we are supposed to have the gift of the Holy Ghost to guide us in all things, we can only "lean on borrowed light" so long. If that light is not within us then we are truly blind. Also just because a person apostatizes does not invalidate an earlier testimony given by the power of the Holy Ghost. Sidney Rigdon and Oliver Cowdery are good examples of this... that is why we all should maintain great humility and never take our own testimonies for granted. Our testimonies are renewable sources, though darkness may cloud it from time to time we must keep our lamps trimmed and burning and keep on hand a resevoir of oil or we may find ourselves outside the wedding feast in the dark at midnight.

[KevinG]

I try very hard to lean on the Lord and not His servants for my strength. It becomes more difficult when honoring a spouse or a trusted friend and not all promptings and opinions are in agreement.

There are however a few people who would really shake me if they left the Church. My best friend who baptized me would be one. I would not leave the church if he did but I would be amazed that someone so faithful would do so. Fortunately I don't see that happening.

I cannot imagine the depth of hurt that it would cause if a close family member rebelled or fell away. I think that is the cause of animosity between parents and children around issues like homosexuality or other big issues with religion. It cannot be easy for any person in those situations to have a rift over fundamental beliefs that were once shared.

[Monster]

Sounds like he just goes from one fantastic implausible belief system to the next.

Sounds like you need to review the board rules. Keep the pot shots to yourself plese. -Ares

[why me]

Clearing out old paperwork yesterday, I found a talk I had kept for many years, from a fellow missionary in the MTC. He had been a Protestant minister, realized the folly of that tribe, and become converted to the Restoration. He shared quite a powerful testimony and wrote at great length, with abundant scriptural corroboration, about the validity of the truth claims of the Church. Went on to serve a mission in Poland.

So I thought I would track him down. Wish I hadn't. The former Elder C. has now left the church and become a pyschic medium -- tarot, tea leaves and such. )0: So now what do I do with his testimonial dissertation?

I would send him a copy of his talk if not the original. I think that people find it interesting just where they were in life at a certain age of that life. It may also jar some good memories.

And then a good idea would be to pray for him without telling him you are doing so.