Where Is The Bom Cumorah?

[poulsenll]

Might I suggest you avoid the subject and not interfer with those who know it is of utmost importance so you're not caught "fighting against Zion."

Which Zion? That Zion described by Joseph Smith or that described by Arlin Nusbaum.

http://www.arlinnusbaum.com/

My salvation depends on following the council of a modern Prophet, Thomas S. Monson, and in obedience to the teachings, ordinaces and covenants found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Although, Book of Mormon geography is an interesting subject, my salvation is not dependent on knowing where the Book of Mormon took place.

Larry P

[poulsenll]

You know it is the utmost importance? Were is this taught in the church today? I am unaware of any such statements made by any GA (in an official capacity) that claims that that BoM geography is of the "utmost importance".

And you keep saying "Official Church History" as if that makes it canonical or the same as scripture.

For one who has disavowed the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as the true church, BMOG's, better known as [edit: Do not post others' IRL info] , insistance on "Officional Church History" appears somewhat hypocritical.

Larry P

[Questing Beast]

You concur they are two separate hills then? Btw, I did say they are in the same area. I'm respecting the text.

I don't have a belief either way. But as the details come from the text it is clearly odd to assume that Ramah and Cumorah are different hills but in the same "neighborhood". Again I ask, why is it important and a point of argument with you? You say "I'm respecting the text." But what you are really doing is going against tradition and even authoritative opinion. Talmage, et al. Mormon scholars and leaders are in agreement that the same hill bears both names. And it seems to me that your claim to be "respecting the text" is just a maverick-like stubbornness and not conducive of anything enlightening. If there are two hills, SO WHAT?...

[BOMG]

Which Zion? That Zion described by Joseph Smith or that described by Arlin Nusbaum.

http://www.arlinnusbaum.com/

My salvation depends on following the council of a modern Prophet, Thomas S. Monson, and in obedience to the teachings, ordinaces and covenants found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Although, Book of Mormon geography is an interesting subject, my salvation is not dependent on knowing where the Book of Mormon took place. Larry P

Just because I exposed the inaccuracies of your model doesn't give you the right to make the thread about me. And since you, like a few others here have admitted that the topic is a hobby and nothing of real consequence might I suggest that you refrain from posting further here or elsewhere on the topic of BoM geography.

For one who has disavowed the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as the true church, BMOG's, better known as Arlin Nusbaum, insistance on "Officional Church History" appears somewhat hypocritical. Larry P

It would be more accurate to refer to Arlin Nusbaum as an adherent of the BoM who respects the early revelations that pertain to it.

Aw now it makes sense. Thanks for the connection.

Right, as stated early on, the BoM is clear that the New Jerusalem would be in place prior to the BoM going forth, therefore the N.J. referred to by Joseph has no relation to the one in the BoM. Since you could not find a refute then, I doubt that you'll have one now.

[BOMG]

Please explain how not agreeing with your theory is fighting against Zion? This really is not as important as you make it out to be. The important thing is that Joseph found the plates and translated the BOM.

Joseph was expressing his opinion based on his limited knowledge at the time. You do understand that not everything is revealed to the prophets. Even Alma in his great sermon on the resurrection said in Alma 40:20 "Now, my son, I do not say that their resurrection cometh at the resurrection of Christ; but behold, I give it as my opinion, that the souls and the bodies are reunited, of the righteous, at the resurrection of Christ, and his ascension into heaven." As it happens subsequent revelation confirms that.

If the final Nephit battle was in Palmyra like Joseph reported in the first Official Church History and if the size of BoM lands are tiny like Sorenson, et.al. suggests; and if the New Jerusalem is the government of the United States of America as I contend, then anyone espousing a model outside of Colonial America is fighting against Zion, i.e. God's New Jerusalem spoken of in the BoM and Bible.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

It would be more accurate to refer to Arlin Nusbaum as an adherent of the Bom who respects the early revelations that pertain to it.

That is just it.. they were not early revelations. You seemed to not get that.

[Anijen]

Just because I exposed the inaccuracies of your model doesn't give you the right to make the thread about me. And since you, like a few others have admitted the topic is a hobby and nothing of real consequence might I suggest that you refrain from post here or elsewhere further on the topic of BoM geography.

Who should post and who should not post is certainly not up to you. Besides Lawrence Poulsen is an expert on the Book of Mormon and many LGT proponents hold him as the best work on the geography of the Book of Mormon thus far, I know I do.

It would be more accurate to refer to Arlin Nusbaum as an adherent of the Bom who respects the early revelations that pertain to it.

Or apostate sounds good too.

Right, as stated early on, the BoM is clear that the New Jerusalem would be in place prior to the BoM going forth, therefore the N.J. referred to by Joseph has no relation to the one in the BoM. Since you could not find a refute then, I doubt that you'll have one now.

I have a good better and best theory concerning the geography of the Book of Mormon. I hold the writers (Mormon, Moroni, Nephi etc) of the book in the best category and are the best experts of where they lived. Archaeological evidence in the better category and the opinions of church leaders in the good category. Note, this is as far as geography goes not doctrines or principals that pertain to my salvation.

BOMG you still have not answered a number of CFRs by myself and others. You have posted four times since without answering them. Please do so or I will be inclined to report you for not following the board rules.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

and if the New Jerusalem is the government of the United States of America as I contend, then anyone espousing a model outside of Colonial America is fighting against Zion, i.e. God's New Jerusalem spoken of in the BoM and Bible.

This is untenable. You could not possibly demonstrate this. You are just asserting it dude. Come on, give us your best argument for this new doctrine.

[BOMG]

That is just it.. they were not early revelations. You seemed to not get that.

The Church History account contains more information but the revelations given by Moroni and Jesus say the same thing.

[BOMG]

This is untenable. You could not possibly demonstrate this. You are just asserting it dude. Come on, give us your best argument for this new doctrine.

It is what it is, what can I say, the N.J. would be setup before the BoM came forth as I cited 5 pages back and besides, no LDS will deny who the "mother countries" were that came to battle the Gentiles on the "land and waters." That happened during the Colonial War, thus, no one need look outside of Colonial America for their model.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The Church History account contains more information but the revelations given by Moroni and Jesus say the same thing.

CFR.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

It is what it is, what can I say, the N.J. would be setup before the BoM came forth as I cited 5 pages back and besides, no LDS will deny who the "mother countries" were that came to battle the Gentiles on the "land and waters." That happened during the Colonial War, thus, no one need look outside of Colonial America for their model.

Wait. "mother countries" is vague. One cannot argue definitively that that is talking solely about GB as you imply.

And you have always dodged the issue of the prophecy about Christopher Columbus, that is according to any church leader I have ever heard on the subject.

CC did not ever land in north America.

[BOMG]

CFR.

47 And I said unto them, that it should be granted unto them according to their faith in their prayers; 48 Yea, and this was

their faith

—that

my gospel

, which I gave unto them that they might preach in their days,

might come unto their brethren the Lamanites

, and also all that had become Lamanites because of their dissensions. 49 Now,

this is not all

—their faith in their prayers was that

this gospel

should be made known also, if it were possible that other nations should possess

this land

;

50 And thus

they did leave a blessing upon

this land

in their prayers, that

whosoever should believe in

this gospel

in

this land

might have eternal life; (D&C 10, date Summer 1828)

[Deborah]

And thus they did leave a blessing upon this land in their prayers, that whosoever should believe in this gospel in this land might have eternal life; (D&C 10, date Summer 1828)

This still doesn't answer the question of how you come to the conclusion that "this land" applies only to the USA when a majority of the Lamanites flocking to the church are in Central and South America.

[BOMG]

This still doesn't answer the question of how you come to the conclusion that "this land" applies only to the USA when a majority of the Lamanites flocking to the church are in Central and South America.

Because like Israel, BoM lands were small and its promises, like Israel's apply only to its. No one assumes Israel's land promises apply to adjacent or far distant lands, same goes with the land promises tied to BoM lands. Remember, Sorenson, et.al. have concluded and I concur, BoM lands were the size of Israel, he just doesn't believe the text when it comes to there being a north border by a real Sea North and a south border for the Land Northward of a Sea South. All fits congruently here in Western New York!

[rodheadlee]

Because like Israel, BoM lands were small and its promises, like Israel's apply only to its. No one assumes Israel's land promises apply to adjacent or far distant lands, same goes with the land promises tied to BoM lands. Remember, Sorenson, et.al. have concluded and I concur, BoM lands were the size of Israel, he just doesn't believe the text when it comes to there being a north border by a real Sea North and a south border for the Land Northward of a Sea South. All fits congruently here in Western New York!

So, these blessings or promises described in D&C 10 only apply to Western NY? Or the whole United States?

[Calm]

So, these blessings or promises described in D&C 10 only apply to Western NY? Or the whole United States?

And the US of 1828? If it includes more than that, it is including locations outside of "this land" as you are defining it.

If it includes the US in any capacity, then if at some time in the future the US includes Canada, Mexico and the rest of Central America, then the prophecies must include all those lands after all, right?

[BOMG]

And the US of 1828? If it includes more than that, it is including locations outside of "this land" as you are defining it.

If it includes the US in any capacity, then if at some time in the future the US includes Canada, Mexico and the rest of Central America, then the prophecies must include all those lands after all, right?

To fulfill prophecy:

a. Gentiles had to come to BoM lands.

b. Those Gentiles and the Indians occupying BoM lands would jointly found a new government referred to as a "New Jerusalem."

c. The mother countries of those Gentiles would come to war against those Gentiles on BoM land and waters surrounded it.

d. The Indians must sell BoM lands to the Gentiles for their "inheritance."

e. The Indians must be scattered by the Gentiles but not destroyed.

f. The Gentiles must act like a nursing hen to the Indians.

g. There must stories of visitations by Jesus to those Gentiles on BoM lands.

h. The power of God must be manifested with those Gentiles on BoM lands.

i. Those lands must never have a Gentile king or queen.

j. The government of the New Jerusalem must be where people are led for freedom.

k. That nation must grow and become greater than all nations on earth.

l. That nation must be a friend to Israel and a blessing to all nations.

j. The heavenly New Jerusalem will come down to it.

To answer the question, however far the government of that New Jerusalem would go is obviously where her blessings would go.

All prophecies were fulfilled beginning in Western New York with the Iroquois Confederacy and the Colonists which became our Declaration, Constitution and Bill of Rights. The Colonists could not have won without the help of the Indians. http://www.bomchristian.com/c/en/the-geography?start=6

[cdowis]

Besides Lawrence Poulsen is an expert on the Book of Mormon and many LGT proponents hold him as the best work on the geography of the Book of Mormon thus far, I know I do.

Even a famous, honored and renown individual must follow the rules of the forum. I don't care if he is the Pope.

[Skylla]

Keep this thread on topic.

Skylla

[Mark Beesley]

Might I suggest you avoid the subject and not interfer with those who know it is of utmost importance so you're not caught "fighting against Zion."

I'm sorry. I believe you've lost all ability to reason. Bye.

[Stargazer]

I'm sorry. I believe you've lost all ability to reason. Bye.

Well, I have to say that it took you long enough to conclude this. I think I detected the rank odor of apostasy about five pages back. Anyone who claims that denying the "true geography" is going to lead to being cut off from God has clearly lost it.

Last I heard it was the testimony of Christ that led to salvation and not knowldege or belief concerning the general location of Zarahemla.

[BOMG]

Who should post and who should not post is certainly not up to you. Besides Lawrence Poulsen is an expert on the Book of Mormon and many LGT proponents hold him as the best work on the geography of the Book of Mormon thus far, I know I do.

I said I exposed Poulsen's inaccuracies and if you feel he's the best there is then that makes sense.

Or apostate sounds good too.

Your board etiquette could use some adjusting, if you don't refrain "I may have to report you."

I have a good better and best theory concerning the geography of the Book of Mormon. I hold the writers (Mormon, Moroni, Nephi etc) of the book in the best category and are the best experts of where they lived. Archaeological evidence in the better category and the opinions of church leaders in the good category. Note, this is as far as geography goes not doctrines or principals that pertain to my salvation.

Is taking Poulsen before the BoM part of your modus operandi? He has ignored the Spiritual Geography entirely, what about you? Have you factored in fulfilled land prophecies at any time? Course not since you esteem those who haven't either. The field of BoM geography has gone miles beyond the dinosaurs of BoM geography, no offense.

[BOMG]

Well, I have to say that it took you long enough to conclude this. I think I detected the rank odor of apostasy about five pages back. Anyone who claims that denying the "true geography" is going to lead to being cut off from God has clearly lost it.

Last I heard it was the testimony of Christ that led to salvation and not knowldege or belief concerning the general location of Zarahemla.

You filled in what "cut off" means, not me; I'm reporting what it said.

[BOMG]

I'm sorry. I believe you've lost all ability to reason. Bye.

I'm not under "condemnation" as reported by Benson et.al. for not following the BoM and so it's not my mind that has been "darkened."

54 And your

minds

in times past have been

darkened

because of unbelief, and because you have

treated lightly

the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the

whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they

shall remain under this condemnation

until they repent and

remember

the new covenant, even the

Book of Mormon

and the former commandments which I have given them,

not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

(D&C 84)