Where Is The Bom Cumorah?

[Stargazer]

I'm not under "condemnation" as reported by Benson et.al. for not following the BoM and so it's not my mind that has been "darkened."

54 And your

minds

in times past have been

darkened

because of unbelief, and because you have

treated lightly

the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the

whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they

shall remain under this condemnation

until they repent and

remember

the new covenant, even the

Book of Mormon

and the former commandments which I have given them,

not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

(D&C 84)

You are willing to state that all who do not hold to your assertions about the geography of the Book of Mormon are in some way under condemnation, that their salvation may be in jeopardy as a result. This is patently ridiculous, just as ridiculous as an assertion that failure to believe in a God with no body, parts and passions, whose center is nowhere and everywhere at the same time (i.e. a caricature of the classic Trinity) is worthy of a sentence of eternal damnation.

Something Peter wrote about private interpretations comes to mind.

I could respect, if not agree with your assertions regarding the location of Zarahemla's city boundaries, but your unreasonable certitude, your absurd doctrinal arguments about who has salvation and who doesn't based on that certitude, and your complete lack of reasonability in all your argumentation leads me to conclude that you haven't the slightest clue.

[BOMG]

You are willing to state that all who do not hold to your assertions about the geography of the Book of Mormon are in some way under condemnation, that their salvation may be in jeopardy as a result...I could respect, if not agree with your assertions regarding the location of Zarahemla's city boundaries, but your unreasonable certitude, your absurd doctrinal arguments about who has salvation and who doesn't based on that certitude, and your complete lack of reasonability in all your argumentation leads me to conclude that you haven't the slightest clue.

1. You've defined what "cut off" means not me.

2. No one has mentioned Zarahemla, or its boundaries.

3. To show that there IS an epidemic of the darkened mind I offer the H38 Virus as evidence.

[BOMG]

Please answer the CFR (board rules).

Commencing at the southern shores of the northern lakes [Erie & Ontario] and extending southward a hundred miles or more we find a

greater number of military works than in any other section of the United States

(Frederick Larkin, M.D.,

Ancient Man in America

, 1888, p. 72)

Which parallels the area of the

Hollland Land Purchase

, you know, the land that the Gentiles bought for their inheritance from the Native Americans:

http://en.wikipedia....nd_Land_Company

Interesting also is the lack of fortifications east of the Genesee River which in our model is the

East Sea.

No one lived beyond the

East Sea

. The model is very congruent in all respects,

Physical Geography

,

Spiritual Geography

and the

Internal Geography

, or the

PSI

of BoM geography.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I'm not under "condemnation" as reported by Benson et.al. for not following the BoM and so it's not my mind that has been "darkened."

Buy you are not following the BoM. One case and point is the hill Ramah/Cumorah being the same hill. And Benson was not talking about following the BoM to find out the geography he was talking about the spiritual aspect of teh BoM.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I said I exposed Poulsen's inaccuracies and if you feel he's the best there is then that makes sense.

You have done no such thing. You think you have but you have not. Keep living the fantasy.

[Nofear]

I think I detected the rank odor of apostasy about five pages back. Anyone who claims that denying the "true geography" is going to lead to being cut off from God has clearly lost it.

You may well be correct. It is official Church policy that if one persists in teaching information as Church doctrine that is not Church doctrine after having been corrected by their bishop or higher authority -- that action can subject the individual to Church discipline for apostasy. On the other hand we don't know what BOMG would do if his bishop came to him and said, "Look, brother, you're out of line here and out of harmony with the Church's official teachings on geography." so the descriptor of apostasy may be premature. That and such heavy handed terms tends to annoy the moderators (rightly so).

I personally would like to see it as an addition to Board Guidelines to make it contrary to board rules for anybody to claim as official Mormon doctrine anything which does not arguably conform to the suggested guidelines of Approaching Mormon Doctrine. Though there are plenty of things which are true which are not official doctrine in almost every case it should be entirely adequate for posters to simply assert their belief in the correctness of their interpretation of Mormonism. It crosses a line for members (and non-members) to assert their interpretations as official Church doctrine.

[BOMG]

Buy you are not following the BoM. One case and point is the hill Ramah/Cumorah being the same hill. And Benson was not talking about following the BoM to find out the geography he was talking about the spiritual aspect of teh BoM.

If it is spiritually related then your comment on not following Ramah/Cumorah has no bearing and I'm not here to judge your spiritual worthiness.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

47 And I said unto them, that it should be granted unto them according to their faith in their prayers; 48 Yea, and this was

their faith

—that

my gospel

, which I gave unto them that they might preach in their days,

might come unto their brethren the Lamanites

, and also all that had become Lamanites because of their dissensions. 49 Now,

this is not all

—their faith in their prayers was that

this gospel

should be made known also, if it were possible that other nations should possess

this land

;

50 And thus

they did leave a blessing upon

this land

in their prayers, that

whosoever should believe in

this gospel

in

this land

might have eternal life; (D&C 10, date Summer 1828)

Oh boy, this is as good an interpretations as assuming that the hill Ramah is different than the hill Cumorah.

"This land" is not defined as the land of the Lamanites. And "this land" is not referred to as the US. You are totally reading that into the text.

This is getting really ridiculous.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Because like Israel, BoM lands were small and its promises, like Israel's apply only to its. No one assumes Israel's land promises apply to adjacent or far distant lands, same goes with the land promises tied to BoM lands. Remember, Sorenson, et.al. have concluded and I concur, BoM lands were the size of Israel, he just doesn't believe the text when it comes to there being a north border by a real Sea North and a south border for the Land Northward of a Sea South. All fits congruently here in Western New York!

You cannot have it both ways dude. YOu claim that "This land" is only the US and more specifically WNY and NJ, then you go off about how it really covers more than that.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

If it is spiritually related then your comment on not following Ramah/Cumorah has no bearing and I'm not here to judge your spiritual worthiness.

Physical locations of the BoM are in no way spiritual. And I was not talking about spiritual worthiness. Were did you get that idea?

Oh wait.. you were projecting. You think it is spiritual and if something does not match up on geography then one must be apostate. Oh boy again.

[BOMG]

Oh boy, this is as good an interpretations as assuming that the hill Ramah is different than the hill Cumorah. "This land" is not defined as the land of the Lamanites. And "this land" is not referred to as the US. You are totally reading that into the text.This is getting really ridiculous.

Need me to school you on Ramah also? Honestly, it's not hard to figure out when there no reference to Ramah being the same as Cumorah. Come on...

[BOMG]

Physical locations of the BoM are in no way spiritual. And I was not talking about spiritual worthiness. Were did you get that idea?

Oh wait.. you were projecting. You think it is spiritual and if something does not match up on geography then one must be apostate. Oh boy again.

No, but if America is the New Jerusalem, i.e. God's Zion (and I contend that it is) and if you are claiming that BoM lands are outside of Zion, then sure, you are an apostate of Zion - you're words.

[Kevin Christensen]

Need me to school you on Ramah also? Honestly, it's not hard to figure out when there no reference to Ramah being the same as Cumorah. Come on...

There is this, of course, from Moroni's abridgement of Ether's account.

Ether 15:11

And it came to pass that the army of Coriantumr did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred.

Which points directly to Mormon 6:4-6

And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of amany waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.

And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

I found that reading BOMAG's website, if nothing else, helps increase my appreciation for the quality of work done by Sorenson, Clark, and Poulson.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[BOMG]

There is this, of course, from Moroni's abridgement of Ether's account.

Ether 15:11

And it came to pass that the army of Coriantumr did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred.

...hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.FWIW

As I noted earlier, that is the verse used wrongly connecting the two. I've underlined what's been overlooked and suggest you offer a second or third verse to sustain your position.

The "few plates" he gave to his son were literally what could be carried in battle, thus, what went in the ground were the gold plates or what was entrusted to him excepting Moroni's later additions.

The rest of the records were secured in Ramah as it says. Whereas I can provide three references to sustain my position, you have but one - FWIW.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

As I noted earlier, that is the verse used wrongly connecting the two. I've underlined what's been overlooked and suggest you offer a second or third verse to sustain your position.

Moving the goal posts??? You don't need a second or 3rd verse to make the case. You never even use your own standard set up here. And it is clear that you have no rebuttal to the scriptures being brought up here about Ramah and Camorah being the same hill so you move the goal posts and ask for 2 or 3 more verse of scripture. If nothing else it sounds like you are arguing for 2 different Camorah's. Clearly one is the same as Ramah.

Go a head "school" me on Ramah.

BTW you might enjoy this thread.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

No, but if America is the New Jerusalem, i.e. God's Zion (and I contend that it is) and if you are claiming that BoM lands are outside of Zion, then sure, you are an apostate of Zion - you're words.

Which you have not even remotely came close to substantiating.

There error you have made here is that Zion=the USA.

I am an apostate of Zion? Nice. Who made you the arbiter of that? You are not Christ.

[Nemesis]

you are an apostate of Zion

You may think its ok to do this when giving a presentation towards people not agreeing with your theory but we don't allow this here. Follow the board guidelines.

Nemesis

[BOMG]

Which you have not even remotely came close to substantiating. There error you have made here is that Zion=the USA.

I have statements by LDS prophets and apostles, what about those?

[BOMG]

Oh boy...This is getting really ridiculous.

Oh wait.. you were projecting. You think it is spiritual and if something does not match up on geography then one must be apostate. Oh boy again.

No teflon here Mod.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

No Teflon here Mod.

Saying something is getting ridiculous is hardly the same thing as calling some one an apostate. And you will note that I did not call you an apostate only that you (BOMG) think that if some one disagree with a proposed geographical location they must be an apostate. If you will note I was quoting you almost word for word.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I have statements by LDS prophets and apostles, what about those?

Look the closest case you could make is that Jackson County MO is the New Jerusalem. As that is in the D&C.

How does that fit in you theory. the D&C is Canonized. That puts it above some obscure quotes you might have. Why are you not arguing that the Nephites lived in MO like you are about WNY. Why is the Hill Camorah not in MO? There is some inconsistencies in your theories.

You will note that none of my theories demand that the BoM lands be the same as the New Jerusalem or even Zion.

[BOMG]

...only that you (BOMG) think that if some one disagree with a proposed geographical location they must be an apostate. If you will note I was quoting you almost word for word.

LOL

Look the closest case you could make is that Jackson County MO is the New Jerusalem. As that is in the D&C.

If a Mesotheorist incorporated prophecy into his or her model, he or she would have to admit:

a. Missouri is not in their Land Northward.

b. Joseph was wrong, they are wrong, or they are two separate NJs.

b. A NJ will yet be built in Mesoamerica, wherever their Land Northward is.

You will note that none of my theories demand that the BoM lands be the same as the New Jerusalem or even Zion.

You should publish what you know about fulfilled land prophecies as in the field of BoMG there is a dearth of information.

[cdowis]

The Land of Promise does not restrict itself to the Rio Grande. All of North America, including south of the river, is included in the Land of Promise.

(NOTE: In case you did not notice, Missouri is not part of the state of New York. Your logic is flawed.)

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

The Land of Promise does not restrict itself to the Rio Grande. All of North America, including south of the river, is included in the Land of Promise.

(NOTE: In case you did not notice, Missouri is not part of the state of New York. Your logic is flawed.)

In agreement. You might want to include South America too.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

The Land of Promise does not restrict itself to the Rio Grande. All of North America, including south of the river, is included in the Land of Promise.

(NOTE: In case you did not notice, Missouri is not part of the state of New York. Your logic is flawed.)

In agreement. You might want to include South America too.