Where Is The Bom Cumorah?

[BOMG]

Looking at things, it would appear that Moroni DID indeed travel thousands of miles...in other cases how would Moroni been able to dedicate the site of the temple of Manti as Brigham Young had said?

Are you citing Official Church History or Canon for that belief? It would be unwise to base a model on those many non-official claims, no offense.

And BOMG, you don't have to literally read "typhoon", "volcano", "mudslides" etc. in order for it to be one of those. Cities are mentioned as catching fire. Other cities were sunk in the ocean or in lakes and rivers. Others are mentioned as being buried inside of mountains. The land is described as being dark for three days to the point that lighting a fire was impossible.

You're missing my point. What occurs in Mesoamerica routinely is never mentioned in the BoM. It would be unwise to claim non-divine acts of nature for clearly what was a one-time, selective use of nature to bring about the demise of the wicked. See the difference?

No writing system either. No cities that supported thousands of people until several hundred years AFTER the BoM timeline.

Your beating a dead horse on the writing and of what use is evidence of a writing system that contains no confirmations of the BoM? That is a strike against Mesoamerica.

No cities that supported thousands of people until several hundred years AFTER the BoM timeline.

Nice try but the facts remain:

a. There are more ancient fortifications in Western New York than any where in the U.S.

b. The fortifications date to BoM time.

c. They occur in a small area like the events in the BoM did.

[BOMG]

It is possible that with that, you might have to include Utah in your theories. The Aztecs and the Toltecs of Mesoamerica are theorized to have left from Utah and Arizona on their migrations southward. Just sayin.

Any model outside of Colonial America fails. All land prophecies were fulfilled during the Colonial War.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

Are you citing Official Church History or Canon for that belief? It would be unwise to base a model on those many non-official claims, no offense.

You're missing my point. What occurs in Mesoamerica routinely is never mentioned in the BoM. It would be unwise to claim non-divine acts of nature for clearly what was a one-time, selective use of nature to bring about the demise of the wicked. See the difference?

Your beating a dead horse on the writing and of what use is evidence of a writing system that contains no confirmations of the BoM? That is a strike against Mesoamerica.

Nice try but the facts remain:

a. There are more ancient fortifications in Western New York than any where in the U.S.

b. The fortifications date to BoM time.

c. They occur in a small area like the events in the BoM did.

Part A than everywhere in the USA, that might be correct. But the Andean and Mesoamerican fortifications that do indeed date back to the BoM along with their cities that supported HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of people cannot be denied.

Anyone that goes to the Manti pageant hears that story. IT also shows up in the Ensign, an official church publication...

Brigham Young announced the temple site 25 June 1875 and dedicated the site on 25 April 1877. Earlier that same morning, he had taken Warren S. Snow with him to the southeast corner of the temple site and told him, “Here is the spot where the Prophet Moroni stood and dedicated this piece of land for a Temple site, and that is the reason why the location is made here, and we can’t move it from this spot.”

(Taken from http://lds.org/ensign/1978/03/the-manti-temple?lang=eng&noLang=true&path=/ensign/1978/03/the-manti-temple )

Official Church publication...

[BOMG]

Part A than everywhere in the USA, that might be correct. But the Andean and Mesoamerican fortifications that do indeed date back to the BoM along with their cities that supported HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of people cannot be denied.

Agreed, but evidence of a large population does not a true BoM geography make, no offense.

Anyone that goes to the Manti pageant hears that story. IT also shows up in the Ensign, an official church publication...

Though the Ensign is an official church publication and though a statement by Brigham Young may appear there, it does not outrank Official Church History and Canonized Scripture. And most importantly it does not vindicate the claim that entire BoM events happened somewhere besides Western New York where the land prophecies were fulfilled.

Do you accept Joseph's statement that the final battles were in Palmyra, yes or no?

[cdowis]

Do you accept Joseph's statement that the final battles were in Palmyra, yes or no?

Before answering, let me give you my view of the role of a prophet.

A prophet's role is to bring us to Christ, and to govern the church through priesthood keys. His role does not include satisfying our idle curiosity on various questions.

If we give an example of where Pres. Hinckley purchased church history documents that later proved to be forgeries. His role as a prophet did not give him and particular insight into the validity of those documents

Having said that, having said that, BOM geography is not a doctrinal issue. I would say that the *prophet* Joseph Smith merely made the assumption that the plates were buried in the sale locale that BOM events occurred. He had no special revelation on this nondoctrinal issue.

The question of BOM geography lends itself, like the validity of the forged letters, to intellectual and scientific investigation. JS gave his opinion, and there is some evidence that he later expressed another opinion.

No, I do not think JS had any revelation on BOM geography, and we need to follow the text rather than the opinons of early church leaders, including JS himself.

He was incorrect...he was wrong....he made a mistake on this nondoctrinal issue. We are better served when we use our intellect, our research skills, to tackle this question.

Again, the role of a prophet is not to satisfy our idle curiosity.

[BOMG]

No, I do not think JS had any revelation on BOM geography, and we need to follow the text rather than the opinons of early church leaders, including JS himself.

He was incorrect...he was wrong....he made a mistake on this nondoctrinal issue.

Without statements attributed to J.S., no one would have considered that BoM events occurred in Mesoamerica.

Taking the text itself with statements by Jesus and Moroni, there should be no confusion at all. Good points.

Again, the role of a prophet is not to satisfy our idle curiosity.

Is BoM geography an idle curiosity to you?

[BCSpace]

Where the plates were finally deposited? In New York. The BoM itself seems to imply two Cumorahs. The first one where the plates were originally stored. And then after the last great battle, Moroni is wandering around and in hiding for decades. Not likely he put them back in the same place as before.

Let's hypothesize that "Cumorah" means "library" or "archive".

It would be natural for Moroni to name the repository "Cumorah" because no matter where that one was, it would be an archive.

We don't know what Cumorah means, but it is reasonably clear that there were two. Ramah/Cumorah was in the Jaredite/Nephite homeland, the other one was far away, and had to be the place where Moroni finally archived his record.

That is the hypothesis I subscribe to.

[cdowis]

Is BoM geography an idle curiosity to you?

To me... it is not a doctrinal issue.

If you can take the actual text of the BOM and conclude that it happened in NY, good for you. But base it on the text itself, and be prepared to defend your position based on that text.

We have asked you several questions on archeology and the BOM text, so you may want to go back and answer those questions.

In any case, I see no evidence that JS had any special insight on the matter than his intellect and assumptions.

[BCSpace]

And then after the last great battle, Moroni is wandering around and in hiding for decades. Not likely he put them back in the same place as before.

It says:

a. Moroni and Mormon knew of Nephi's prophecy that they would loose the battle and be destroyed.

b. Moroni and Mormon were "at the front" of their 10k.

c. They secured all records before going to battle, meaning, they were in place where Joseph could find prior to going to battle.

In Mormon 6:6 we read that the main records were hidden except those which were to be committed to his son Moroni; those that comprise the BoM. After the battle, Mormon is still writing and so is Moroni.

[Mark Beesley]

Is BoM geography an idle curiosity to you?

YES X 1,000

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Is BoM geography an idle curiosity to you?

It should be nothing more than a curiosity. BoM geography is a non doctrinal issue. I even talked about this as I addressed my home ward as Sunday School President.

Don't try to make something that it is not.

[BOMG]

YES X 1,000

It should be nothing more than a curiosity. BoM geography is a non doctrinal issue. I even talked about this as I addressed my home ward as Sunday School President.

Don't try to make something that it is not.

Might I suggest you avoid the subject and not interfer with those who know it is of utmost importance so you're not caught "fighting against Zion."

[BOMG]

That is the hypothesis I subscribe to.

Do you accept Official Church History and Joseph's statements therein that the final battles occurred in Palmyra, NY?

[LeSellers]

Do you accept Official Church History and Joseph's statements therein that the final battles occurred in Palmyra, NY?

Has this "Official Church History" reached canonical status yet?

Lehi

[BOMG]

Has this "Official Church History" reached canonical status yet? Lehi

A simple yes or no is fine. Which is it?

[LeSellers]

A simple yes or no is fine. Which is it?

Okeh, which is it: "Yes" or "No"?

Is the "Official Church History" canon?

And, for a bonus point, does knowing where the Nephites fought their last battle affect my salvation?

Lehi

[Anijen]

Nice try but the facts remain:

a. There are more ancient fortifications in Western New York than any where in the U.S.

b. The fortifications date to BoM time.

c. They occur in a small area like the events in the BoM did.

CFR

[cdowis]

Do you accept Official Church History and Joseph's statements therein that the final battles occurred in Palmyra, NY?

Yes, JS said it.

And yes, he was mistaken.

[BOMG]

CFR

Thought you were done here?

Yes, JS said it.

And yes, he was mistaken.

Thank you. Are there other statements attributed to Joseph reg. BoM geography that you feel he was not mistaken on?

[BOMG]

Okeh, which is it: "Yes" or "No"? Is the "Official Church History" canon?

And, for a bonus point, does knowing where the Nephites fought their last battle affect my salvation?Lehi

Leave your sarcasm at the door please. For the fifth time, if you are found fighting against the true geography or Zion, you will be "cut off." Not so unimportant is it. Not unrelated to your salvation either imo.

[Anijen]

Thought you were done here?

Please answer the CFR (board rules).

[cdowis]

Thought you were done here?

I'm not through with you yet.

Thank you. Are there other statements attributed to Joseph reg. BoM geography that you feel he was not mistaken on?

He was spot on when he wrote that Palenque was a possible BOM site

On June 25, 1842, Joseph recorded that Stephens and Catherwood had succeeded in collecting in the interior of America "a large amount of relics of the Nephites, or the ancient inhabitants of America treated of in the Book of Mormon," which relics had recently landed in New York (History of the Church 5: 44).

[LeSellers]

if you are found fighting against the true geography or Zion, you will be "cut off."

CFR.

Lehi

[Deborah]

Might I suggest you avoid the subject and not interfer with those who know it is of utmost importance so you're not caught "fighting against Zion."

Please explain how not agreeing with your theory is fighting against Zion? This really is not as important as you make it out to be. The important thing is that Joseph found the plates and translated the BOM.

Joseph was expressing his opinion based on his limited knowledge at the time. You do understand that not everything is revealed to the prophets. Even Alma in his great sermon on the resurrection said in Alma 40:20 "Now, my son, I do not say that their resurrection cometh at the resurrection of Christ; but behold, I give it as my opinion, that the souls and the bodies are reunited, of the righteous, at the resurrection of Christ, and his ascension into heaven." As it happens subsequent revelation confirms that.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Might I suggest you avoid the subject and not interfer with those who know it is of utmost importance so you're not caught "fighting against Zion."

You know it is the utmost importance? Were is this taught in the church today? I am unaware of any such statements made by any GA (in an official capacity) that claims that that BoM geography is of the "utmost importance".

And you keep saying "Official Church History" as if that makes it canonical or the same as scripture.