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inquiringmind

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Is suicide an unforgivible sin?

No, it may not even be counted toward the individual as a sin if the person is not accountable for his actions (such as due to brain damage or mental disorder).

http://lds.org/liaho...g&query=suicide

The late Elder Bruce R. McConkie, formerly of the Quorum of the Twelve, expressed what many Church leaders have taught: “ Suicide consists in the voluntary and intentional taking of one’s own life, particularly where the person involved is accountable and has a sound mind. … Persons subject to great stresses may lose control of themselves and become mentally clouded to the point that they are no longer accountable for their acts. Such are not to be condemned for taking their own lives. It should also be remembered that judgment is the Lord’s; he knows the thoughts, intents, and abilities of men; and he in his infinite wisdom will make all things right in due course.” (Mormon Doctrine, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966, p. 771; some italics added.)
Suicide is a sin—a very grievous one, yet the Lord will not judge the person who commits that sin strictly by the act itself. The Lord will look at that person’s circumstances and the degree of his accountability at the time of the act. Of course, this gives us no reason to excuse ourselves in committing sins, nor will the Lord excuse us, if I understand correctly. We must constantly strive to do our best in following the example of the Savior in every aspect of our lives. At the same time, however, let us remember that spiritual growth comes “line upon line,” that the key—in the spirit world as well as in mortality—is to keep progressing along the right path.
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here is the official statement from the LDS Church

21.4.14

Suicide

It is wrong to take a life, including one’s own. However, a person who commits suicide may not be responsible for his or her acts. Only God can judge such a matter.

The family, in consultation with the bishop, determines the place and nature of a funeral service for a person who has died under such circumstances. Church facilities may be used. If the person was endowed, he or she may be buried in temple clothing.

*emphasis added

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don't forget that many people that do commit suicide are in their own private little hells before they do the deed. A sad common theme of suicides is that many people have a sense of peace before they kill themselves because they did decide to commit the deed.

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This article by Elder Russel M. Ballard is the best explanation I've ever heard of our doctrine on the topic.

SUICIDE: SOME THINGS WE KNOW, AND SOME WE DO NOT

And this article by Orson Scott Card is the only one I've ever seen that actually "gets" how it feels to be suicidal (at least for me).

Is it really your life to throw away?

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don't forget that many people that do commit suicide are in their own private little hells before they do the deed. A sad common theme of suicides is that many people have a sense of peace before they kill themselves because they did decide to commit the deed.

This is interesting, as a young man in the Church, I was taught that Suicide was an unforgiveable sin. Mostly due to the Selfish nature of the act. Although it is easy to see both sides, I find it difficult for anyone to take their own life. During my Paramedic years of yore, I witnessed the aftermath of many Suicides. Most of them out of very self serving and self motivated actions. We are sent here as a test. I have always felt that Suicide was the easy way out even though many people fall into a depression and feel it the only way out. Example: I read a few months ago or so that a lifelong member, sealed in the Temple with his family, had fallen on hard times, the wife had health issues, the son Paralized in a skiing accident but remarkably doing well in life, a great Priesthood holder and servant of the Lord. The Father having fallen on hard times, shot both his wife and son in cold blood, then turned the hunting rifle on himself. The family and extended family destroyed. I find it extremely difficult to rationalize that the father who killed his family and then himself wasn't aware of what he was doing. Another example was a young man, popular in highschool in Provo, Utah, went and served a mission, came home and couldn't adjust back into the real world, instead of getting help, he hiked up to the "Y" in Prove and put a gun in his mouth, although his life was over in an instant the irreputable damage it did to his family and loved ones was incredible. It was purely selfishness.. There is a place in Hell for people like them and I would like to take them there.

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This is interesting, as a young man in the Church, I was taught that Suicide was an unforgiveable sin. Mostly due to the Selfish nature of the act. Although it is easy to see both sides, I find it difficult for anyone to take their own life. During my Paramedic years of yore, I witnessed the aftermath of many Suicides. Most of them out of very self serving and self motivated actions. We are sent here as a test. I have always felt that Suicide was the easy way out even though many people fall into a depression and feel it the only way out. Example: I read a few months ago or so that a lifelong member, sealed in the Temple with his family, had fallen on hard times, the wife had health issues, the son Paralized in a skiing accident but remarkably doing well in life, a great Priesthood holder and servant of the Lord. The Father having fallen on hard times, shot both his wife and son in cold blood, then turned the hunting rifle on himself. The family and extended family destroyed. I find it extremely difficult to rationalize that the father who killed his family and then himself wasn't aware of what he was doing. Another example was a young man, popular in highschool in Provo, Utah, went and served a mission, came home and couldn't adjust back into the real world, instead of getting help, he hiked up to the "Y" in Prove and put a gun in his mouth, although his life was over in an instant the irreputable damage it did to his family and loved ones was incredible. It was purely selfishness.. There is a place in Hell for people like them and I would like to take them there.

That is what you know maybe there is more to their stories then you or anyone know about and thank heavens neither you nor me are in a position to give judgement

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This is interesting, as a young man in the Church, I was taught that Suicide was an unforgiveable sin. Mostly due to the Selfish nature of the act. Although it is easy to see both sides, I find it difficult for anyone to take their own life. During my Paramedic years of yore, I witnessed the aftermath of many Suicides. Most of them out of very self serving and self motivated actions. We are sent here as a test. I have always felt that Suicide was the easy way out even though many people fall into a depression and feel it the only way out. Example: I read a few months ago or so that a lifelong member, sealed in the Temple with his family, had fallen on hard times, the wife had health issues, the son Paralized in a skiing accident but remarkably doing well in life, a great Priesthood holder and servant of the Lord. The Father having fallen on hard times, shot both his wife and son in cold blood, then turned the hunting rifle on himself. The family and extended family destroyed. I find it extremely difficult to rationalize that the father who killed his family and then himself wasn't aware of what he was doing. Another example was a young man, popular in highschool in Provo, Utah, went and served a mission, came home and couldn't adjust back into the real world, instead of getting help, he hiked up to the "Y" in Prove and put a gun in his mouth, although his life was over in an instant the irreputable damage it did to his family and loved ones was incredible. It was purely selfishness.. There is a place in Hell for people like them and I would like to take them there.

This is what I mean by "getting it." Not everyone who commits suicide is trying to help themselves.

I know something of the black despair of depression, the sense that nothing you have ever done is worth anything, that everyone would be better off if you were gone. I have also talked friends through some of those desperate hours...

And I've been on the other side, where it feels impossible to believe any good or hopeful thing, because your own dark madness is assuring you that if your loved ones only knew the truth about your own worthlessness they'd not bother to try to talk you out of it.

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This is interesting, as a young man in the Church, I was taught that Suicide was an unforgiveable sin. Mostly due to the Selfish nature of the act. Although it is easy to see both sides, I find it difficult for anyone to take their own life. During my Paramedic years of yore, I witnessed the aftermath of many Suicides. Most of them out of very self serving and self motivated actions. We are sent here as a test. I have always felt that Suicide was the easy way out even though many people fall into a depression and feel it the only way out. Example: I read a few months ago or so that a lifelong member, sealed in the Temple with his family, had fallen on hard times, the wife had health issues, the son Paralized in a skiing accident but remarkably doing well in life, a great Priesthood holder and servant of the Lord. The Father having fallen on hard times, shot both his wife and son in cold blood, then turned the hunting rifle on himself. The family and extended family destroyed. I find it extremely difficult to rationalize that the father who killed his family and then himself wasn't aware of what he was doing. Another example was a young man, popular in highschool in Provo, Utah, went and served a mission, came home and couldn't adjust back into the real world, instead of getting help, he hiked up to the "Y" in Prove and put a gun in his mouth, although his life was over in an instant the irreputable damage it did to his family and loved ones was incredible. It was purely selfishness.. There is a place in Hell for people like them and I would like to take them there.

It is interesting that onlookers say things like you did. "I find it extremely difficult to rationalize that the father who killed his family and then himself wasn't aware of what he was doing." I have also heard comments like, "No one in their right mind would take their own life", etc. The world needs to learn that depression, regardless of whether it is "situational" or a "chemical imbalance" or both, is a real illness. It becomes no different than a malignant tumor or an illness like leukemia. Depression robs a person of the ability to be rational or to be in their right mind. Just because they look normal (whatever that is) and appear to be able to communicate with a "sound" mind; their thoughts are far from being of a sound mind. When people with cancer or leukemia die, no one gets angry with the victim. They accept that person's death to be a result of their illness. Though they will still mourn for their loss, they are not lost in a bewhildering state of disbelief or social stigma which can cause its own set of lifelong problems. The suicidal person, OTOH, becomes the scum of the earth; even though they did not seek or ask for their depression any more than the person who has any other type of deadly disease. Their act of taking their life is just as related to their mental disease as the involuntary but expected death of someone who suffers from a terminal physical illness.

If mankind would start recognizing this, then perhaps attitudes surrounding it would also change; including those of loved ones who are left behind to struggle with their own emotions over this type of death. Unfortunately, so much of their own suffering could be assuaged if they weren't so ignorant about the disease itself. In fact, if people were better educated about this awful illness, perhaps there wouldn't be as many suicides as there are.

For instance, running into an attitude like yours could be the very last straw which drives someone over the edge who is suffering and struggling with the profound illness of depression. Your love and compassion underwhelm me.

jo

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Is suicide an unforgivible sin?

NO, but I would say it is about the stupidest sin one could commit, because it, much like murder, cannot be undone! But I think that most, if not all who commit it are not accountable because I think that they must be mentally ill. However, I would not teach that it is not a sin for fear that some may think it is the "easy way out." To me it is the total opposite of hope... it is despair and I believe it is a tool of Satan to cause one to miss some blessings and enjoyments that this life affords if they had only endured just a little longer. So instead of condemnation I would reach out to those of such a mind and say that there is always hope and life is worth living no matter how bad or how unbearable it seems. The first funeral eulogy I ever gave was just before my mission at age 17 or 18. A friend committed suicide right after High School and although he was a member (his mother was totally inactive) and he had some serious health issues, he had lost all hope and I regret I was unable to help him in his time of need (he had moved away and we had lost touch) yet his mother thought that I was the only person he would have wanted to speak at his funeral and I did so. I do not believe this poor suffering soul is in hell or will be in hell. I do not know his final state, but I believe the Lord's judgement will be just and merciful and it is not for me to condemn him, I only wish I could have stopped him. It was such a waste.

I think God will be much harsher on those who commit "spiritual suicide" but that is another topic that need not be touched on here.

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To do such a thing, implies a level of personal pain far beyond my current comprehension -- the hell spoken of by another poster. The older I get, the less inclined I am to do what is God's job; that is, to judge.

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It is not the hell of fire and brimstone. But unbearably cold blackness that is dark enough to be equal of a black hole and just a crushing is what many suicidial people's hells are like. But there is hope if there is an outside source because if not, the black hole will consume them.

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We all know people who have put a gun in their mouth and pulled the trigger have committed suicide. Someone who stands on train tracks and watches as it approaches and runs over them has also committed suicide. But what of someone who knows that a wall will collapse in ten minutes yet stands next to the wall as it collapses? Are they suicidal? They could have moved from the hazardous area; they had foreknowledge of a situational event. There was a man who lived two thousand years ago who knew and had forewknowledge of a situational event which would take his life. Yet he did not change his course and willingly proceeded to the hazardous area.

jo

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NO, but I would say it is about the stupidest sin one could commit, because it, much like murder, cannot be undone! But I think that most, if not all who commit it are not accountable because I think that they must be mentally ill. However, I would not teach that it is not a sin for fear that some may think it is the "easy way out." To me it is the total opposite of hope... it is despair and I believe it is a tool of Satan to cause one to miss some blessings and enjoyments that this life affords if they had only endured just a little longer. So instead of condemnation I would reach out to those of such a mind and say that there is always hope and life is worth living no matter how bad or how unbearable it seems. The first funeral eulogy I ever gave was just before my mission at age 17 or 18. A friend committed suicide right after High School and although he was a member (his mother was totally inactive) and he had some serious health issues, he had lost all hope and I regret I was unable to help him in his time of need (he had moved away and we had lost touch) yet his mother thought that I was the only person he would have wanted to speak at his funeral and I did so. I do not believe this poor suffering soul is in hell or will be in hell. I do not know his final state, but I believe the Lord's judgement will be just and merciful and it is not for me to condemn him, I only wish I could have stopped him. It was such a waste.

I think God will be much harsher on those who commit "spiritual suicide" but that is another topic that need not be touched on here.

If I could give more points for this wonderful response I would. You articulated my views 100%.

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We all know people who have put a gun in their mouth and pulled the trigger have committed suicide. Someone who stands on train tracks and watches as it approaches and runs over them has also committed suicide. But what of someone who knows that a wall will collapse in ten minutes yet stands next to the wall as it collapses? Are they suicidal? They could have moved from the hazardous area; they had foreknowledge of a situational event. There was a man who lived two thousand years ago who knew and had forewknowledge of a situational event which would take his life. Yet he did not change his course and willingly proceeded to the hazardous area.

jo

+1 rep point for this.

But it's not quite the same thing (as I am sure you know). That man you write of had a purpose in life, and his willing procession to that purpose was the entire point of his being here.

Other situations in which a man or a woman could have taken an available way out of a situation filled with mortal threat, but did not, are not suicide. A person who leaps to toss a child out of the way of a speeding car, in the certainty that escape is impossible, has not committed suicide. In such a case, one life has been exchanged for another. In the case you brought forward, one life was exchanged for an infinity of lives.

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What is the "unpardonable sin"?

I spent some time looking for a definition, and found more than enough to confuse me and then resolve the discrepancy.

Here goes:

5 Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost? 6 For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness. [This implies that, hard as it may be, it is possible.]
Now that is the secret of it, my brethren and sisters. That is what I want to say to these boys and girls here. If you are in trouble, go to the Lord; if you are tempted, go to him; if you have, in an unguarded moment, done that which is wrong, go to the Lord. He will forgive and pardon transgression and sin, no matter though it may have been grave. No persons are so far lost, except they may have committed the unpardonable sin, and that would be exceedingly rare, that God’s arms are not stretched out to them for their redemption. Our transgressions will be blotted out from the book of his remembrance, our sins will be washed white as wool, through faith in him, and our hearts will be filled with joy, and confidence in ourselves, in each other, and in our Father, through the exercise of faith.

Conference Report, October 1919, p.178

I rejoice in the spirit that was proclaimed this morning is possessed by the Latter-day Saints; that their mission in the earth is one of peace, and the proclamation of peace even with the olive branch. All men must hear the Gospel of peace, and be judged thereby; not only hear the sound, but have in their hearts a knowledge of God, our Father, and comprehend His love toward the children of men. Latter-day Saints believe that very few men in the earth can commit the unpardonable sin, because they do not have knowledge enough concerning God. The sin for which there is no forgiveness is the sin against light and knowledge. Men and women throughout the world, tens of thousands who now take sides against the Latter-day Saints, do so because they have no knowledge concerning that which has been revealed to us from the heavens. If they knew as we know, concerning the revelations of God our Father, they might be just as valiant for the truth, and just as zealous in proclaiming it as the Latter-day Saints themselves are.

Conference Report, April 1915, p.70

In reading of Dante, ... [he] had the Middle Age idea of hell, not knowing the limited number of crimes that will keep a man there eternally. By revelation, we know that the only crimes man will be placed in hell for is committing the unpardonable sin, knowing the Christ and then denying Him; or shedding innocent blood.

Conference Report, October 1902, p.46 – 47

The unpardonable sin is to shed innocent blood, or be accessory thereto. All other sins will be visited with judgment in the flesh, and the spirit being delivered to the buffetings of Satan until the day of the Lord Jesus.

(HC 5:391-92.)

All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

...

They make open war, like the devil, and awful is the consequence. (HC 6:314-15.)

Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Alma P. Burton, p.222

All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Alma P. Burton, p.352

... for the crime of adultery with Bathsheba, and for ordering Uriah to be put in the front of battle in a time of war, where he was slain by the enemy, the Priesthood, and the kingdom were taken from David, the man after God's own heart, and his soul was thrust into hell. Why? Because “the Holy Ghost spake by the mouth of David”-or, in other words, David possessed the gift of the Holy Ghost, and had power to speak by the light thereof. But even David, though guilty of adultery and murder of Uriah, obtained the promise that his soul should not be left in hell, which means, as I understand it, that even he shall escape the second death.

Gospel Doctrine: Selections from the Sermons and Writings of Joseph F. Smith, compiled by John A. Widtsoe, p.433

I remember a good old Methodist sister worrying very much about her condition, who asked me if I thought she had committed the unpardonable sin and had become a son of perdition. I told her that I had not yet learned of there being any daughters of perdition. But I was sure that she never knew enough to become a daughter of perdition. It is one thing to be saved, and it is quite another thing to be exalted. I would like to have the spirit of the Lord help me to help Latter-day Saints see the grand and glorious privileges that are ours alone.

Bryant S. Hinckley, Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin J. Ballard, p.209 – 211

(I guess Elder Ballard and I have a similar sense of humor. :))
Keep your eye on the Savior of the world. Make him your example. Remember that He is your brother and make him your ideal and you will know He is reaching down to help you. He is with you and if you have made mistakes and have truly repented, He will forgive you. Don't be deceived by the wiles of the adversary and think because you may have made mistakes that you have committed the unpardonable sin. This gospel is primarily the gospel of second chance, the gospel of repentance. Don't forget that young folks. Do not insist upon remembering what God is willing to forget. Everyone of us have made mistakes, but though we must pay the full price, our mistakes should be remembered only as guides to better lives in the future.

The Abundant Life, p.270

Enjoy,

Lehi

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I tried once to kill myself. I was aware of what I was doing. I just DIDN'T CARE to live anymore. There was no fear to die.

I am glad I didn't die. There were moments when I felt like I want to go there, like I don't want to be here anymore. Those are the moments when I am very, very unhappy. But I don't have a desire to take my life anymore, it would be a sin and selfish thing to do like you guys said here.

I think that God would forgive me even though I was aware of what I was doing because I didn't think that it was evil to take my own life. And I didn't want todo this because I wanted to make someone feel bad or guilty. But I didn't even think about those who love me, my parents. That never came to my mind. I wonder why? Selfishness? Now is different because now I know it is evil.

I believe that God has so much compassion for those who kill themselves, not anger, but how He will judge nobody knows.

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Alma 39:5~6 said:

5 Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost? 6 For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness. [This implies that, hard as it may be, it is possible.]

That doesn't explain what "denying The Holy Ghost" means, or what "when it once had place in you" means.

I'm told there's a difference between the operations, and the gift.

I don't see any quote here that says that one would have to have had the gift, or that he would have to have been baptized by one holding the proper authority in order to receive the gift.

Once you have, could almost any (seemingly) minor sin (like breaking the WOW) be a denial of The Holy Ghost?

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That doesn't explain what "denying The Holy Ghost" means, or what "when it once had place in you" means.

That scripture alone does not. The entirety of the set of quotations I posted makes it a bit more clear.

Elsewhere, you asked how I went from confused to conflict resolved. I have to admit that it was not just the quotations that did it. And you are right, it is a difficult question if the only source of information were scripture.

It is gracious of Father to give us more. Here is anther quote that equates the two things: denial of the Holy Ghost and shedding of innocent blood. They are, as I pointed out, the same thing in different terms.

These who are to be so severely punished must first have the testimony of the gospel and by the power of the Holy Ghost know that Jesus is the Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God. Afterwards if they sin and openly and wilfully turn against the truth and deny Christ, they assent unto his death, and this is equivalent to crucifying him again and the shedding of innocent blood, and they put him to open shame.

Answers to Gospel Questions vol 1, p.63

It seems you are trying to make it too easy to get into hell (outer darkness). God is not pleased when anyone chooses to go there. He was unhappy with Satan's choice thousands of years ago, but He allowed Lucifer to "rule in hell", rather "than to serve in heaven" (from Milton's Paradise lost). He will allow anyone else who wants to go, to go, as well, but it is not His plan for us.

As Joseph Smith said (in the passage I included twice), a man must deny the sun is shining when he sees it, he must reject the witness of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, before he "qualifies" as a son of perdition (Satan). for we will all be sons, it is we who choose our father: most will choose Christ, a few will choose Satan.

In Genesis, Cain killed Abel. Most of the world (who care) don't know why. They think it was because Cain coveted Abel's sheep, and this was the proximate cause. But the underlying reason was that Cain loved Satan more than he loved God. He offered his sacrifice only when Satan commanded him to do so. It was this rebellion that made his sacrifice unacceptable. Satan led him to kill his brother so he could get those sheep, and the murder that resulted was at Satan's instigation. He, Cain, then became "Master Mahan", master of the secret revealed to him by Satan. And he became a son of perdition because he had earlier received the witness of the Holy Ghost, knew it to be true, and then loved Satan more.

I don't have the talk before me, I'm sure others can locate it, but in a BYU (as I recall) fireside or training, Elder Boyd K. Packer answered the question you have posed here by saying, "There's only one person here who can qualify as a son of perdition, and I tell you, I am not planning on falling" (or words to that effect). The words of an apostle of Jesus Christ are good enough for me.

The sin against the Holy Ghost requires such knowledge that it is manifestly impossible for the rank and file to commit such a sin. Comparatively few Church members will commit murder wherein they shed innocent blood, and we hope only few will deny the Holy Ghost.

The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.117

I think I cited this one in the earlier message, but it is the clearest, I think, of all of them.

The only ones who will become sons of perdition are those, who have received the testimony of the Holy Spirit, by and through which they have been made to know that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and then deny it. Jesus taught that whosoever should sin against the Father, it would be forgiven him, but whosoever should sin against the Holy Ghost should not have forgiveness in this world or in the world to come. The reason is that unto the Holy Ghost, the third personage in the Godhead, has been given the privilege of extending to honest, baptized, converted souls greater light, greater knowledge than that which may come from any other personage in heaven or on earth, and when he makes a man see, and feel, and know a thing, he will never know it better. Therefore whosoever sins against that light has sinned against the greatest light and knowledge there is, and commits the greatest sin, and becomes a son of perdition, and whosoever sheds innocent blood in that he takes the life of an innocent person, he, too, is a candidate to become a son of perdition.

Bryant S. Hinckley, Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin J. Ballard, p.209 - 211

Please notice that shedding innocent blood is not necessarily "murder", per se: it is crucifying Christ unto himself, putting Him to an open shame.

There is an unpardonable sin, a sin for which there is no forgiveness, neither in time nor in eternity. It is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; it is to deny Christ, to come out in open rebellion, to make open war against the Son of Man-after gaining, by the power of the Holy Ghost, a sure and perfect knowledge of the truth and divinity of the Lord's work. It is to shed innocent blood, meaning to assent unto the death of Christto crucify him afresh, Paul says—with a full and absolute knowledge that he is the Son of God. It is to wage open warfare, as does Lucifer, against the Lord and his Anointed, knowing that the course so pursued is evil. It is to deny-to say the sun does not shine while seeing its blazing light-it is to deny Christ after a sure and irrevocable testimony has been received by the power of the Holy Ghost. Hence, it is a scurrilous and evil declaration against the Holy Ghost, against the sole and only source of absolute and sure knowledge. It is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

The Mortal Messiah: From Bethlehem to Calvary, vol 2, p.215

Lehi

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+1 rep point for this.

But it's not quite the same thing (as I am sure you know). That man you write of had a purpose in life, and his willing procession to that purpose was the entire point of his being here.

Other situations in which a man or a woman could have taken an available way out of a situation filled with mortal threat, but did not, are not suicide. A person who leaps to toss a child out of the way of a speeding car, in the certainty that escape is impossible, has not committed suicide. In such a case, one life has been exchanged for another. In the case you brought forward, one life was exchanged for an infinity of lives.

Thank you, Stargazer!

Yes, I do know. I am glad you took some time to share some thoughts, as the purpose of my post was not to make any judgments; but rather to offer some food for thought.

Love,

jo

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Inasmuch as the unpardonable sin is being considered a possibility by some, that those who commit suicide might become candidates, I would offer this. I think much of the world considers Judas a candidate mostly because of his association with the crucifixion of Christ, even though it was Judas' understanding that by selling the information of Jesus' whereabouts, Jesus would only be punished - not be put to death. What many do not follow through on, regarding Judas' actions, is that he later took his own life when he realized the true intent of those who had paid him for his information. This action alone (committing suicide) could then be interpreted in and of itself to be a denial of the Holy Ghost. OTOH, it could also be viewed as Judas' ultimate sacrifice as evidence of his unbearable sorrow that he had had a hand in the death of Jesus.

I remember reading in the teachings of Joseph Smith where he gave some thoughts about Judas. Joseph said that he was not certain Judas had received enough light and knowledge from the Holy Ghost to become a son of perdition. Now, I have no doubt that Joseph would have been considering both of Judas' acts.

We are taught that we won't know who will become a son of perdition. This will only be revealed when they are identified by God when they are judged.

Regards,

jo

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I remember reading in the teachings of Joseph Smith where he gave some thoughts about Judas. Joseph said that he was not certain Judas had received enough light and knowledge from the Holy Ghost to become a son of perdition.

Do you (or anyone) know where I can find that quote?

It interests me because Jesus once told the disciples that The Holy Ghost was "with them, and would be (after His death and resurrection) in them."

It's also interesting because Judas saw external evidence of God (in the form of miracles.)

If Joseph expressed any doubt regarding his status as a son of perdition, it could answer many of my questions (and would tend to confirm Lehi's quote from Elder Melvin J. Ballard.).

Thank you.

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