Suicide

[Calm]

It's also interesting because Judas saw external evidence of God (in the form of miracles.)

I just read in the Miracle of Forgiveness that external evidences such as miracles are less convincing of the Gospel than a spiritual confirmation because the first involved the senses and thus can be denied, but the second involves an internal communication of such power that one cannot legitimately deny it.....talked about the experience of Thomas as a comparison between the two IIRC.

It is an interesting twist imo considering those who propose tests to prove the existence of miracles, etc.

I will try and find the quote online.

Whole book is online, not sure if that is kosher or not as there is no copyright given and I can't read any explanation of why they put it online due to the Spanish so am not giving link even though they did all the work for me (I do have the book itself), this is in the chapter Point of No Return...

I like the more extensive quote of this, much more obvious about how far one must be gone to commit the unpardonable sin:

All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

When a man begins to be an enemy to this work, he hunts me, he seeks to kill me, and never ceases to thirst for my blood. He gets the spirit of the devil—the same spirit that they had who crucified the Lord of Life—the same spirit that sins against the Holy Ghost. You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance; they make open war, like the devil, and awful is the consequence. 1

and

Sin Against the Holy Ghost

The sins unto death may be thought of as somewhat difficult to define and limit with precision. From the words of Joseph Smith quoted above we note that ". . . many apostates of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" will fall into this category. We cannot definitely identify them individually since it is impossible for us to know the extent of their knowledge, the depth of their enlightenment, and the sureness of their testimonies before their fall. When one has received the Holy Ghost he has a companion who will constantly warn and teach and inspire him. (See Moro. 10:5.) If not driven away through uncleanness or other persistent wickedness the Holy Ghost will always bear increasing witness to gospel truth. The potency of his influence is emphasized in this explanation by President Joseph Fielding Smith:

The reason blasphemy against the Son of God may be forgiven, even if the Son be made manifest in a vision or a dream, is that such manifestation does not impress the soul as deeply as does the testimony of the Holy Ghost. The influence of the Holy Ghost is spirit speaking to spirit, and the indelible impression is one that brings conversion and conviction to the soul as no other influence can. The Holy Spirit reveals the truth with a positiveness wherein there is no doubt and therefore is far more impressive than a vision given to the eye. 4

The depth and durability of impressions made by "spirit speaking to spirit" perhaps explains the Lord's statement to Thomas after his resurrection: "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29.) Here was the reference to the surer witness. The eyes can be deceived, as can the other physical senses, but the testimony of the Holy Ghost is certain.

The sin against the Holy Ghost requires such knowledge that it is manifestly impossible for the rank and file to commit such a sin. Comparatively few Church members will commit murder wherein they shed innocent blood, and we hope only few will deny the Holy Ghost.

[inquiringmind]

It seems you are trying to make it too easy to get into hell (outer darkness).

I don't want to believe that anyone goes to hell.

I'd like to believe that to know God is to love Him, and that everyone will come to know and love Him.

But I'm not sure anymore.

When one has received the Holy Ghost he has a companion who will constantly warn and teach and inspire him. (See Moro. 10:5.) If not driven away through uncleanness or other persistent wickedness the Holy Ghost will always bear increasing witness to gospel truth

I know someone who says he lost that gift.

He's given me a ride to the local LDS Church

.

He attends, but he can't partake of the sacrament, and he hopes to be re-baptized.

If he had the Holy Ghost as a companion, who was constantly warning and inspiring him, and he drove Him away thru some uncleaness or persistent wickedness (which I don't think he'd disagree with, because he told me he lost the right to have Him as a constant companion because of some serious sins), does that mean he's wasting his time?

Your post raises the question of whether this driving of The Holy Ghost away thru persistent wickedness, after you've had Him as a companion, is the" denying of the Holy Ghost," that "has no forgiveness"?

This man worked in law enforcement, lost his wife, and his endowments, and is still on probation for some criminal charge (or charges) but he was was very nice to me, we had a meaningful conversation, and seems to be working very hard.

I personally hope he's able to repent, but is there really room for that hope in LDS doctrine?

Also, did Joseph really question whether Judas had enough light to commit this sin?

I still haven't seen a quote to that effect, and it would be very interesting if he did (and as a prophet, his opinion would have more weight than that of an Elder or an Apostle.)

Thank you (and please reply.)

[Calm]

If he had the Holy Ghost as a companion, who was constantly warning and inspiring him, and he drove Him away thru some uncleaness or persistent wickedness (which I don't think he'd disagree with, because he told me he lost the right to have Him as a constant companion because of some serious sins), does that mean he's wasting his time?

No, rebaptism includes full restoration of the Holy Ghost for those who have truly repented of their persistent wickedness and changed their ways and desiring to reestablish their covenant again with Christ and the Father. I think anyone who feels a sense of remorse is capable of repentance. It is when an individual refuses to admit to wrong or responsibility (I may be doing wrong, but I have to because of.....) that I think he runs into the very real possibility that he may not be able to turn his life around, not because forgiveness isn't there for him, but because he refuses to accept it.

[inquiringmind]

No, rebaptism includes full restoration of the Holy Ghost for those who have truly repented of their persistent wickedness and changed their ways and desiring to reestablish their covenant again with Christ and the Father.

But passages have been quoted that seem to say that once one has had the Holy Ghost, had His inner witness, and sinned against light, it's equivelant to shedding Christ's innocent blood, and it's then impossible for them to truly repent and find forgiveness.

That's what I don't understand.

[Calm]

But passages have been quoted that seem to say that once one has had the Holy Ghost, had His inner witness, and sinned against light, it's equivelant to shedding Christ's innocent blood, and it's then impossible for them to truly repent and find forgiveness.

That's what I don't understand.

When the descriptions include an attitude where one is out there actively looking to murder innocents as well as actively working to destroy Christ's work even though they know it is Christ's work, I think you can understand that someone who has reached that point---where there is no acceptance of God's light in their life---is significantly different than the usual sinner, even the persistent sinner who usually sins out of weakness rather than pure rebellion.

Remember this part of one quote:

The sin against the Holy Ghost requires such knowledge that it is manifestly impossible for the rank and file to commit such a sin. Comparatively few Church members will commit murder wherein they shed innocent blood, and we hope only few will deny the Holy Ghost.