Capital Punishment

[Mark Beesley]

Was there any intention of taking him alive if the opportunity presented itself? Any attempt to use weapons that would disable or give them a chance to surrender?

If not, it seems more of an assassination than a typical military action.

I suppose it could be viewed that way as well. I just don't see the legitimacy of trying to call it an execution. So, I guess someone who is more wedded to this Board could start a poll:

Was the death of Osama bin Laden:

1. The imposition of the death penalty;

2. An assassination of a political leader; or

3. A combat fatality of war.

4. Other

Explain your answer with reference to Gospel principles.

[Mark Beesley]

This is pretty much the same group that oppose the death penalty and are pro abortion. Their inconsistancies baffle me.

I don't know anyone who is pro-abortion. I know lots of people who against abortion, but remain pro-choice, granting the woman the right to make that hard decision. I also know a few people who are against abortion and would destroy the agency of the woman to choose.

[thesometimesaint]

As a general rule I oppose Capital Punishment except in the most grievous of circumstances.

Many live that deserve death, and some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

[Walden]

So I don't think this is really a death penalty issue. He was killed in a military action during wartime.

I am strongly opposed to the death penalty and I agree with the above statement.

However, I am not "celebrating" the death of OBL either.

[Mars]

Many live that deserve death, and some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

Even the very wise cannot see all ends.

Was there any jubilant celebration outside of New York?

I mean, an attack on America is an attack on America, but if the attack happened right here where I live, it might feel personal. And I might cheer his death.

[thesometimesaint]

Mars:

I know I'm not very wise.

Yes there were celebrations outside of New York.

http://thegazette.com/2011/05/02/gallery-americans-celebrate-news-of-bin-ladens-death/

[Mars]

Yes there were celebrations outside of New York.

Ah, ok. I hadn't bothered to look. Most people have focused on the video from Times Square, which makes sense, considering the attacks happened in NYC.

[thesometimesaint]

Mars:

I don't see the death of any man, even as bad as OBL was, and he was a baddy, as a cause to celebrate. It was the tragic end to an even more tragic life.

[Mars]

No argument there, TSS. I actually agree.

I'm just not that put off by the celebrations. I haven't done it, and wouldn't do it, but if it happened very close to home I might have a different outlook.

[Nathair/|\]

I'm not trying to advocate celebrating the death of any life form, but at what point is it acceptable to celebrate that a threat is ended?

[chowchow9000]

Mankind is full of sin, and they will be punished by God in the due time of the Lord. HE will burn the earth with fire.

[Mudcat]

As pro capital punishment, I haven't much in the way of comment directly to the OP.

Other than, I don't see the death of OBL as any sort of punishment to OBL. To me it was the proper consequence of his actions. I don't see it as an execution, assassination or combat fatality.

It was a service to humanity. I see his death most similar to that of the extermination of a rabid dog. Nothing glorious or noble about it but nothing shameful or ignoble either.

For any who would argue that it is unfair for me to dehumanize OBL's death in such a fashion. I would say, I didn't dehumanize him. He dehumanized himself.

[thesometimesaint]

Nathair:

For better or worse OBL created, financed, and directed Al Qaeda. It is wholly a creation of his making. It remains to be seen if Al Qaeda will remain a threat to the world. He neither created terrorism nor was/is its only practitioner. Unfortunately his tactics will remain for the foreseeable future.

[ELF1024]

He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.

[Mark Beesley]

As pro capital punishment, I haven't much in the way of comment directly to the OP.

Other than, I don't see the death of OBL as any sort of punishment to OBL. To me it was the proper consequence of his actions. I don't see it as an execution, assassination or combat fatality.

It was a service to humanity. I see his death most similar to that of the extermination of a rabid dog. Nothing glorious or noble about it but nothing shameful or ignoble either.

For any who would argue that it is unfair for me to dehumanize OBL's death in such a fashion. I would say, I didn't dehumanize him. He dehumanized himself.

Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God

D&C 18:10

To analogize the death of a child of God, the worth of whose soul God esteems as great, with the extermination of a rabid dog is simply wrong. It is inconsistent with what Christ taught regarding how we should esteem our enemies.

[Mark Beesley]

He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.

You might want to share that sentiment with BCSpace . . .

[rodheadlee]

We LDS, generally, believe in the justice of capital punishment. Sometimes our critics mock the

Church by bringing up "blood atonement" or pointing out the fact that capital punishment in

Utah used to include death by firing squad.

Yet today, I hear many lauding the death of Osama bin Laden as a final step of justice for those

killed on 9/11. Some of these who nod their heads in agreement are opposed to capital

punishment for heinous crimes in our country.

Is this consistent?

Not to speak up for OBL, may he not rest in peace, but he had no trial and no conviction by a jury,

yet was given the death sentence.

Can one oppose the death penalty in all other cases except this one?

Bernard

I'm opposed to capital punishment if the evidence is circumstancial. OBL took credit for the killings, he would kill again when/if given the chance. He didn't need a trial, he needed killing. I would never celebrate the death of anyone though. It's always a sad time when someone goes to the dark side and won't return/repent until death.

[ELF1024]

Osama Bin Laden declared war on the US. He was a legitimate target. He was an enemy combatant by his own admission.

This assassination garbage can stop now.

[Mark Beesley]

Osama Bin Laden declared war on the US. He was a legitimate target. He was an enemy combatant by his own admission.

This assassination garbage can stop now.

What is your objection to the use of the word assassination? Cannot military targets be assassinated? Before answering, read the Wiki article on assassination, particular the section entitled As Military Doctrine.

[Calm]

Osama Bin Laden declared war on the US. He was a legitimate target. He was an enemy combatant by his own admission.

This assassination garbage can stop now.

I used "assassination" in comparison to what is generally thought of as military action. Execution could be substituted to convey almost the same meaning I am giving it, it is just that I see executions as being done by the state which has custody of the individual, for the most part...a more formalized method of removing those who are seen as a danger to society. I am willing to be proved wrong, but if you are thinking that I think the assassination was wrong, you would be wrong. I agree with you that he declared himself an enemy. I personally think it unjustly dignifies what he was engaging in to equate it with "war". I don't see terrorism as acts of war, but of cowardice and manipulation.

I also don't feel like celebrating his death at all even if my first and continued reaction was a surge of pride in the men and women who committed themselves to ensuring that Bin Laden would one day meet at least one brutal consequence of his brutal choices.

[Mudcat]

To analogize the death of a child of God, the worth of whose soul God esteems as great, with the extermination of a rabid dog is simply wrong.

My own Evangelical faith by no means suggest that I should consider OBL a child of God. IMO, my analogous reference to OBL as a rabid dog was generous. The notion that your faith considers him a child of God is not my problem.

It is inconsistent with what Christ taught regarding how we should esteem our enemies.

Mark, I think you are putting words in the mouth of the Savior. Sure he said we should love our enemies.

edit add-

But you are suggesting that Christ would think OBL was equitable to anyone else as a child of God. In Matthew 7:6, I think Christ wasn't speaking literally of dogs and pigs when he said, "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

Would he use such language about God's own children? IMO, Christ drew a line himself in this statement.

Given your view, I would imagine you felt that Christ was wrong in taking a handful of rope and running the money lenders out his Fathers house. I mean they were children of God after all. What did they do to deserve such mistreatment? These guys were just trying to a make a living for their families.

Do you think when Jesus said we should love our enemies, he actually meant we should be supportive of our enemies?

In spite of the things you and I agree on, this ain't on of them.

[JarMan]

I don't really care what bin Laden's killing is considered to be. It's justified in my mind. And, yes, I do celebrate his death.

[USU78]

My own Evangelical faith by no means suggest that I should consider OBL a child of God. IMO, my analogous reference to OBL as a rabid dog was generous. The notion that your faith considers him a child of God is not my problem.

In the BoM, Muddy, it holds that "by the wicked the wicked are punished," making clear to us the fundamental brotherhood and child-of-G-d-hood of all mankind, not-yet-born, presently living, and already departed.

We're all wicked to one degree or another, the mad dog and the Tsaddiq. Nobody can claim exclusive possession of G-d's favor, and G-d loves all equally well.

He's not equally well pleased with us all . . . and perhaps that's the principal difference between the mad dog and the Tsaddiq.

[Bernard Gui]

I am strongly opposed to the death penalty and I agree with the above statement.

However, I am not "celebrating" the death of OBL either.

How can you have it both ways?

He was given the death penalty by the order of the chief law enforcement

officer of the USA. The order was carried out without trial or conviction.

Bernard

[blackstrap]

If I train a dog to be a vicious attack dog,then release him on my enemy,I run the risk that someday he may turn and rend me or someone

close to me.If he does that, I am justified in putting him down,right?