D&C 77:6

[chowchow9000]

I think that I have to side with Cinepro on this one. To me, the teachings of the church on the age of the earth are very clear. We reject them only at our own risk.

[Calm]

Genesis in fact speaks only of the Garden, not what was outside it, until Adam and Eve were driven out. It's clear that death was going on outside of the Garden for a long time before the Garden was created as a separate zone just so mankind, as God's creation, could be brought into being on the earth.

I think in examining what is meant by death and sin---and I would add Death and Sin as the covenantal versions (those actions that affect the state of the covenant between God and Man) that exist only in the context of Covenantal Man---and the fall, one has to remember that the fall occurred within the Garden and yet there is no indication that Death and Sin---or death and sin for that matter---continued there, nor did Adam and Eve's sin bring on any fallen state for the Garden itself. Why would their fall affect the rest of the world and not the Garden which was their home?

Adam and Eve left the Garden and went out into the fallen world. The question for me is if it was their previous actions that caused the fall of that world to a terrestrial, wild and harsh state, then why wasn't the Garden where they were living when they actually sinned affected in the same way instead of only the surrounding area? Makes more sense to me that the Garden had been lifted out of the terrestrial state into a paradisical one without affecting its surroundings which remained wild and uncultivated, but not fallen. Instead it was the eventual presence of Fallen Man that created a fallen context for the world as well. I think one could describe the Garden as being 'fallen' as well until Adam and Eve were expelled from it, with them gone it was left without the context of Death and Sin and thus purified and innocent again.

One could say that prior to the Fall death and sin were not present in the only world that matters to covenantal man---the world where he interacts with God, which would be the Garden, limited though it was (assuming it was here on this world). Scripturally speaking, animals and plants are discussed in their relationship with man, they are not independent of him so a discussion of what was going on with them outside of the context of how they were prepared for and then named by Man would be outside the scope of the scripture text. Therefore Death and Sin (capitalized to separate it from the mundane destruction of plant and animal life that we often label as death) entered into the nonGarden part of the world with the entry of Adam and Eve so that even though physical conditions did not change, the spiritual context did and thus that world could now be called fallen even though it itself had not changed at all save for the addition of Covenantal Man.

Brigham Young called the creation story a "baby story" implying that it was a very simplified version of the real thing, but why not apply the other meaning of "baby story" and have Genesis deal with a baby earth so to speak. An analogy that has helped me place the earth's physical development in line with its spiritual development and the story of the Garden and the Fall is that the earth existed in 'womb state' during its creation time while it developed into a fully functioning terrestrial being so to speak. Once it reaches a point where it is ready to proceed on the next stage of its mortal existence it is 'birthed' into a state of innocence where part of it is set aside/tithed and consecrated as a Garden for the creation/placement and preparation/teaching of Covenantal Man and Woman who have been given the role of stewards or parents over the earth (not just the Garden). The Parents learn their duties, learn what their options for the future include and make their choice they believe to be the most effective in fulfilling the commandments and expectations God has of them. Thus the Fall occurs and Fallen Man and Fallen Woman must leave the Garden since that has been consecrated to the Lord and that which is unclean cannot abide there, while the world loses some of its innocence as all children do when they experience the results of the imperfections of their parents and thus it too is now in a fallen state, not only because of the presence of Fallen Man and Woman. This analogy could be carried forward toward baptism and a full state of accountability and onward, but I would be reluctant to do so except as a symbolic exploration rather than any suggestion it was the actual spiritual progression the earth is going through.

[Questing Beast]

Here are some interesting quotes which may be useful in this discussion:

“...Then a week of his years, by the count of heaven, is 2,555,000,000 years. Two billions, five hundred and fifty five millions of years! Just the length of eternity, as the martyred prophet said” William W. Phelps, Deseret Almanac, For the Year of our Lord, 1852’ pg. 47

--... We have an authentic account, which can be accepted as true, that life has been going on in this system for almost 2,555,000,000 years. Presumably this system is the universe created by the Father through the instrumentality of the Son.” Mortal Messiah, 1:29

--... One of the brethren went to work and managed to get number of years that composed an eternity. It was somewhere in the neighborhood of 250,000,000 years. President Smith said that was correct. The number of years are vast and can scarcely be counted. Eternities have a beginning and an end. One eternity commences and that has an end, and so on. Eternities upon eternities.” Lorenzo Snow papers, 16 June 1901, LDS Church Archives.

Kolob time Earth time 1 day 1,000 years 1 hour 41.67 years 1 minute 253 days 1 second 4.22 days .25 seconds 1.1 days .01 second 1 hour We are immortal beings..... -Lorenzo Snow, Conference Reports, p. 2, April, 1901I for more detailed account, see ‘Eternities to Come and Go’ by Stephen Robinson, in the Religious Studies Center Newsletter, vol. 8 no. 3 (May 1994)

Okay, we have disagreement here anyway. Which is it, 250 million years or 2 billion 555 million years?

My understanding is that the "one thousand years is as a day to God" was never meant to be literal or exact. This is just over-thinking religion again. And of course none of it is necessary for our salvation. But we do enjoy thinking about "the mysteries". The mystery here, to me, is why anyone would bother to compute this stuff when it amounts to knowing nothing useful....

[BCSpace]

So essentially, death was introduced to the earth approximately 6000-7000 years ago? Before that, death did not occur on earth and man is "no older than 6-7 thousand years old"?

No, Adam and Eve were in the Garden, and there was no death there. Genesis in fact speaks only of the Garden, not what was outside it, until Adam and Eve were driven out.

Or what was before it.

[Rob Osborn]

There was no death amongst "any" of the creation until the fall, not just the garden. That fall happened some 6,000 years ago. The scriptures speak of the temporal age of the "earth" not just the garden. Temporal here means since death entered the earth. Before death entered the earth there was no death on the earth prior to this event. All life or evidence of it on this planet is thus no older than 6000 years old.

[ERayR]

There was no death amongst "any" of the creation until the fall, not just the garden. That fall happened some 6,000 years ago. The scriptures speak of the temporal age of the "earth" not just the garden. Temporal here means since death entered the earth. Before death entered the earth there was no death on the earth prior to this event. All life or evidence of it on this planet is thus no older than 6000 years old.

Just thinking out loud. There was no death in the garden until Adam and Eve introduced it. Then thay were removed from the garden and put in a place where death was part of the experience. ie. death was not compatable with the garden realm.

Edited to add: The garden itself was a very finite place and did not encompass the whole earth but was rather a small area that was a celestial realm.

[cinepro]

There was no death amongst "any" of the creation until the fall, not just the garden. That fall happened some 6,000 years ago. The scriptures speak of the temporal age of the "earth" not just the garden. Temporal here means since death entered the earth. Before death entered the earth there was no death on the earth prior to this event. All life or evidence of it on this planet is thus no older than 6000 years old.

Keep in mind that D&C 77 was revealed to Joseph Smith in 1832. To Joseph in 1832, the "earth" would only have included Vermont, upper-state New York, northern PA, and north-eastern Ohio.

So what D&C 77 is telling us is that the temporal age of the north-eastern United States is ~6,000 years, but the rest of the planet might be different.

[Rivers]

I recently had a thought. I've always understood that when Christ reigns on the earth for a thousand years, the earth will return to an Edenic state. If this is the case, can the millenium still be considered part of the earth's temporal existence?

[Rob Osborn]

I recently had a thought. I've always understood that when Christ reigns on the earth for a thousand years, the earth will return to an Edenic state. If this is the case, can the millenium still be considered part of the earth's temporal existence?

The millennium is the last thousand years of the total 7000 year of its temporal existance. Now I am not sure if it will turn back into the exact edenic state though.

[cinepro]

The millennium is the last thousand years of the total 7000 year of its temporal existence. Now I am not sure if it will turn back into the exact edenic state though.

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that during the Millennium, “the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory” (Articles of Faith 1:10).

Gospel Principles*

The word "renewed" seems to imply a return to a previous state, which would seem to imply the edenic state.

*I quoted the Gospel Priciples manual and not the actual Article of Faith because the Article of Faith is ambiguous on whether the paradisiacal glory would be during the millennium, or following it.

[BCSpace]

There was no death amongst "any" of the creation until the fall, not just the garden. That fall happened some 6,000 years ago. The scriptures speak of the temporal age of the "earth" not just the garden. Temporal here means since death entered the earth. Before death entered the earth there was no death on the earth prior to this event. All life or evidence of it on this planet is thus no older than 6000 years old.

Incorrect. There was no death before the Fall, but the doctrine and scriptures which I have quoted earlier leave open the possibility of death before man was placed in the garden. In addition, there are organisms living today that are 70-80,000 years old (Pando). Water in salt crystals millions of years old have yielded plant cell wall material etc.

[David T]

The word "renewed" seems to imply a return to a previous state, which would seem to imply the edenic state.

A state before needless industrialization, war, oppression, and poverty screwed it up. That's the goal we're asked to work towards 'renewing'.

[Rob Osborn]

Incorrect. There was no death before the Fall, but the doctrine and scriptures which I have quoted earlier leave open the possibility of death before man was placed in the garden. In addition, there are organisms living today that are 70-80,000 years old (Pando). Water in salt crystals millions of years old have yielded plant cell wall material etc.

Incorrect. There is no possibility that death reigned on the earth long ages before Adam rolled into existance. Adam was the "first flesh". Adam was the first physical creation before any of the animals got their bodies.

[Rivers]

Incorrect. There is no possibility that death reigned on the earth long ages before Adam rolled into existance. Adam was the "first flesh". Adam was the first physical creation before any of the animals got their bodies.

I thought man was created on the seventh day after everything else.

[BCSpace]

Incorrect. There is no possibility that death reigned on the earth long ages before Adam rolled into existance. Adam was the "first flesh". Adam was the first physical creation before any of the animals got their bodies.

I thought man was created on the seventh day after everything else.

First flesh that was (finished being) created yes. Other doctrinal statements have it as the first to Fall and even the first to be resurrected.

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Genesis 2:4-5

Verse 8 jives also with 2 Nephi 2:22. Creative period, including man, and then man placed into the garden. So evolution of man along with everything else. When all is ready (creative period ends), man is placed into the garden into a state of no death to await the Fall. After the Fall, evolution proceeds apace.

[mfbukowski]

A state before needless industrialization, war, oppression, and poverty screwed it up. That's the goal we're asked to work towards 'renewing'.

Yeah, but you gotta admit the internet is kinda fun.....

[Rob Osborn]

First flesh that was (finished being) created yes. Other doctrinal statements have it as the first to Fall and even the first to be resurrected.

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Genesis 2:4-5

Verse 8 jives also with 2 Nephi 2:22. Creative period, including man, and then man placed into the garden. So evolution of man along with everything else. When all is ready (creative period ends), man is placed into the garden into a state of no death to await the Fall. After the Fall, evolution proceeds apace.

Look at verse 5. We are speaking of the beginning of the seventh day here and God informs us that there is not yet plant life found on the earth and no man either. Why? Because God has not caused it to rain yet. Up until this point in the creation- the entire formation of the earth, it hasn't rained yet. Then in verse 7 we are told that God forms Adam's body and man finally becomes a living soul. This does not refer to becoming mortal. There was no living creation amongst the animals, plant life, or man until the seventh day after God causes it to rain. Then the plants grow and then Adam is formed, and lastly- the animals are formed and brought before Adam to see what he will name them.

[BCSpace]

There was no living creation amongst the animals, plant life, or man until the seventh day after God causes it to rain.

So Genesis 1 is wrong? Are you aware that LDS doctrine on Genesis 1 is that it's not a spirit creation but a physical one? Are you aware that LDS doctrine is that the plants and animals came before Adam? To wit:

“Adam did not come to this earth until it was prepared for him. The animals were here. Plants were here. The Lord did not bring him here to a desolate world, and then bring other creatures. It was all prepared for him, just according to the order that is written in our scriptures, and when it was all ready for Adam he was placed upon the earth."

Old Testament Institute Manual (2-16) Genesis 2:7 . Adam Was the “First Flesh” upon the Earth

Now one begins to understand the context of the doctrine on D&C 77:6:

“‘The book which John saw’ represented the real history of the world—what the eye of God has seen, what the recording angel has written; and the seven thousand years, corresponding to the seven seals of the Apocalyptic volume, are as seven great days during which Mother Earth will fulfill her mortal mission, laboring six days and resting upon the seventh, her period of sanctification. These seven days do not include the period of our planet’s creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man. They are limited to Earth’s ‘temporal existence,’ that is, to Time, considered as distinct from Eternity.” (Whitney, Saturday Night Thoughts, p. 11.)

D&C Institute Manual D&C 77:6–7 . Why Was the Book Sealed That John Saw?

Am I correct in assuming you're LDS? If not, obviously LDS doctrine likely doesn't mean anything to you and so I should take a different tack in my argumentation.

Then the plants grow and then Adam is formed, and lastly- the animals are formed and brought before Adam to see what he will name them.

How were the animals formed? What is meant by "of the dust of the earth"? The LDS Chruch freely admits it doesn't know what the processes were. We even have a doctrinal statement by SWK that the rib story for the creation of woman is "surely metaphorical". So besides your literal interpretation, it could just as easily be a metaphor for Big Bang/Evolution. On top of that, scientific evidence shows it and the Church also teaches that the scriptures are not statements of biology or geology etc.

Considering these facts, that the processes are not given or known by revelation, Big Bang/Evolution fits just as well as any other hypothesis including God literally scooping up a handful of wet clay and forming the physical body of man.

[Rob Osborn]

So Genesis 1 is wrong? Are you aware that LDS doctrine on Genesis 1 is that it's not a spirit creation but a physical one? Are you aware that LDS doctrine is that the plants and animals came before Adam? To wit:

“Adam did not come to this earth until it was prepared for him. The animals were here. Plants were here. The Lord did not bring him here to a desolate world, and then bring other creatures. It was all prepared for him, just according to the order that is written in our scriptures, and when it was all ready for Adam he was placed upon the earth."

Old Testament Institute Manual (2-16) Genesis 2:7 . Adam Was the “First Flesh” upon the Earth

Now one begins to understand the context of the doctrine on D&C 77:6:

“‘The book which John saw’ represented the real history of the world—what the eye of God has seen, what the recording angel has written; and the seven thousand years, corresponding to the seven seals of the Apocalyptic volume, are as seven great days during which Mother Earth will fulfill her mortal mission, laboring six days and resting upon the seventh, her period of sanctification. These seven days do not include the period of our planet’s creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man. They are limited to Earth’s ‘temporal existence,’ that is, to Time, considered as distinct from Eternity.” (Whitney, Saturday Night Thoughts, p. 11.)

D&C Institute Manual D&C 77:6–7 . Why Was the Book Sealed That John Saw?

Am I correct in assuming you're LDS? If not, obviously LDS doctrine likely doesn't mean anything to you and so I should take a different tack in my argumentation.

How were the animals formed? What is meant "by out of the dust of the earth"? The LDS Chruch freely admits it doesn't know what the processes were. We even have a doctrinal statement by SWK that the rib story for the creation of woman is "surely metaphorical". So besides your literal interpretation, it could just as easily be a metaphor for Big Bang/Evolution. On top of that, scientific evidence shows it and the Church also teaches that the scriptures are not statements of biology or geology etc.

Considering these facts, that the processes are not given or known by revelation, Big Bang/Evolution fits just as well as any other hypothesis including God literally scooping up a handful of wet clay and forming the physical body of man.

I only interpret what the scriptures state. The summation from the scriptures is that no life was placed upon the earth until the seventh day. Adam was formed on the seventh day along with the various animals. You and I are formed out of the dust of the earth. How were we formed? Pretty simple really.

Genesis ch.2 explains that although everything was before created, it was not the physical creation. Ch. 2 goe son to explain that God had not yet formed the physical bodies of any of thelifforms yet and that the previous creation was speaking of the hosts that were created in heaven as spirits. Then God, as clearly explaine din ch. 2, causes it to rain which causes the first plants to become alive. then God forms Man, plants a garden and places man inside th egarden. Then God forms the animals.

[BCSpace]

I only interpret what the scriptures state

According to 2 Peter 1:20, you are not qualified to interpret.

"With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications."

Approaching Mormon Doctrine (link below)

Of course, I'm not qualified to interpret either which is why I look to the doctrine.

[Rob Osborn]

According to 2 Peter 1:20, you are not qualified to interpret.

"With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications."

Approaching Mormon Doctrine (link below)

Of course, I'm not qualified to interpret either which is why I look to the doctrine.

Is that why you intentionally disregard the presidency stating that man did not evolve?

I am only stating what I interpret as scripture. The scriptures state that man and animals were formed on the seventh day.

[BCSpace]

Is that why you intentionally disregard the presidency stating that man did not evolve?

What statement am I disregarding? I don't believe man evolved; just his physical body.

I am only stating what I interpret as scripture. The scriptures state that man and animals were formed on the seventh day.

Sure, but as you can see, plants and animals were here before him. Why do you disregard LDS doctrine on the subject?

[Rob Osborn]

What statement am I disregarding? I don't believe man evolved; just his physical body.

If you believe that man's body evolved, then you believe that "man evolved". You can't beat around the bush on that one.

Sure, but as you can see, plants and animals were here before him. Why do you disregard LDS doctrine on the subject?

No, I can't see that animals were here before Adam. I have my own personal beliefs from readingt he scriptures and it states very clear that man was placed upon the earth before the animals.

[Whiskeypete]

I think it is pretty clear that many Church leaders have said that there was no death before the fall.

So if I assume that we need to understand that statement very literally, then NOTHING died before the fall.

There was no soil (soil = sand+clay+decomposed dead plants) for the plants to grow in.

All animal life was vegitarian, including bacteria, amoebaea and all other forms of animal life. UNLESS, eating plants KILLS the plant cells.

I'm guessing the plants didn't grow, as that would require them to take in nutrients from the non-existant soil. I'm not sure how they provided fruit.

Fruit kept living after it was eaten? Was it digested? all of these bodily functions require the "death" of living cells.

I'm assuming that there was no cellular division or else Adam and Eves bodies would have grown to enourmous size, what with no cells needing to be replaced.

Sorry about the stream-of-consciousness ramblings here. Just trying to imagine what "no death" really means.

[Palador]

Am I the only one who thinks that the Fall mentioned in the scriptures was not so much a physical event, but a spiritual one?