D&C 77:6

[Rob Osborn]

So essentially, death was introduced to the earth approximately 6000-7000 years ago? Before that, death did not occur on earth and man is "no older than 6-7 thousand years old"?

Wow, then our current scientific understanding of the age of the world and humanity is a gigantic conspiracy heaped upon us by the world's scientific community?

Hmmm, a gigantic conspiracy perpetrated by the world's scientific community to bury the "truth" about the actual age of mankind.....yes, suddenly it is plain and simple.

See, how do you like that- pretty simple eh? Wouldn't be the first time science was wrong on something.

[Rob Osborn]

I believe that it is possible to reconcile the modern understanding of scientists and LDS doctrine. To claim that scientists are "wrong" will get you involved with a long, difficult defense that will lead you somewhere you do not want to go.

Perhaps the answer lies in our understanding of the creation process as found in the scriptures. Just as we changed our interpretation of BOM geography (one vs two hills called Cumorah), an adjustment in our interpretation would bring a different understanding which does not contradict science.

For example, it is clear to me from science that death existed prior to Adam. But it is also clear that there was no death in the Garden of Eden itself.

Death was a part of the millions of years in the creation process, with the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve as the final stage of creation. We need to be able to wrap our minds around those concepts, and it may be possible to reconcile them.

For example, when Adam left the garden, what was the boundary that he crossed? He stepped across some line between the garden, and the natural world.

Finally the scriptures tell us that Adam was "the first flesh". What exactly does that mean in the context of our discussion here.

Well it certainly isn't the first time I ever said that scientists are wrong but.....Yes, they are wrong!

BTW, I only believe in one Hill Cumorah, not two.

I actually believe that Adam was the first creation before any of the animals- they were created after Adam on the seventh day. This is what the scriptures mean by "first flesh", meaning, Adam was the first of all living creatures to have a physical body.

[zelder]

So essentially, death was introduced to the earth approximately 6000-7000 years ago? Before that, death did not occur on earth and man is "no older than 6-7 thousand years old"?

Wow, then our current scientific understanding of the age of the world and humanity is a gigantic conspiracy heaped upon us by the world's scientific community?

Hmmm, a gigantic conspiracy perpetrated by the world's scientific community to bury the "truth" about the actual age of mankind.....yes, suddenly it is plain and simple.

Yes death was introduced 6000 years ago. The current scientific teachings on the subject of natural history is wrong and I suspect that it is a conspiracy but its much bigger than "the scientific community". The false teachings on the subject of natural history is big and deeply entrenched and thats the primary reason people believe it. The "science" is not nearly as impressive as the largess of the popularity of the old earth views. If the lie of global warming had been able to catch on and pick up momentum it would seem stupid within a few decades to not believe it. The lie machine is loosing power becasue of the free press of the internet, old earth views will eventually die becasue it is a lie.

As a teen I experienced some stress over the conflict of what I was taught in school and what is clearly taught here in D&C 77 and else where. I slowly became more aware of the reality of a church of the devil, a massive almost incomprehisible global conspiracy.

1 Nephit 14:11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many ^awaters; and she had dominion over ^ball the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

Ether 8:25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it [the conspiracy] up seeketh to overthrow the ^afreedom of all lands, nations, and countries

Now is indeed the great day of Lucifers' power; he reigns from the rivers to the ends of the earth. He controls his servants with money and now with the international banking cartel, fiat money is used to manipulate and control everything in the world, even science. Scientists go where the money flows. The global warming scam is great example of the reality that "science" is a tool in the hands of global manipulators. The rulers are mondern day Korihors who speak the the Devil face to face and do his bidding and teach the people what the devil tells them to teach.

[Rivers]

Well it certainly isn't the first time I ever said that scientists are wrong but.....Yes, they are wrong!

BTW, I only believe in one Hill Cumorah, not two.

I actually believe that Adam was the first creation before any of the animals- they were created after Adam on the seventh day. This is what the scriptures mean by "first flesh", meaning, Adam was the first of all living creatures to have a physical body.

So is God playing a trick on us by making the world look older than it really is? Is it some kind of test of faith. Or has Satan put all the fossils everywhere to deceive us?

[BCSpace]

But we also know from the 1931 statement that the Church has no doctrine either on the existence of preAdamites so they are certainly not precluded.

You mean this statement...?

Nope, That's the 1909 statement which, since it did not preclude evolution or preAdamites precipitated further debate until the 1931 statement.

[ERayR]

I actually believe that Adam was the first creation before any of the animals- they were created after Adam on the seventh day. This is what the scriptures mean by "first flesh", meaning, Adam was the first of all living creatures to have a physical body.

Amd I actually believe that a fall means to decend from a higher to a lower place. I actually beleive there was a fall. I can not see how you can rationalize a slow climb from a something out of the primordial slime as a fall. It is an ascent all the way. There is no fall to it.

[BCSpace]

Amd I actually believe that a fall means to decend from a higher to a lower place. I actually beleive there was a fall. I can not see how you can rationalize a slow climb from a something out of the primordial slime as a fall. It is an ascent all the way. There is no fall to it.

Seeing as how there is a period of creation prior to the garden state, why can't you have ascent and then a Fall? How does evolution preclude a Fall? The way I see it though is that the placing of creation into a garden state is the ascent.

[Rob Osborn]

So is God playing a trick on us by making the world look older than it really is? Is it some kind of test of faith. Or has Satan put all the fossils everywhere to deceive us?

God is not playing a trick on us, it's the scientific community playing the tricks. All of the fossil and sediment deposits are the testimony left to us of the destruction of the world in Noah's day.

What is it that makes something "look old"? I am curious? I have always found that statement to be strange. Like people say a crocodile looks old. But by what criteria?

[Rivers]

God is not playing a trick on us, it's the scientific community playing the tricks. All of the fossil and sediment deposits are the testimony left to us of the destruction of the world in Noah's day.

What is it that makes something "look old"? I am curious? I have always found that statement to be strange. Like people say a crocodile looks old. But by what criteria?

The age of the Earth is determined by radiometric dating.

http://facstaff.gpc.edu/~pgore/geology/geo102/radio.htm

[Rivers]

Seeing as how there is a period of creation prior to the garden state, why can't you have ascent and then a Fall? How does evolution preclude a Fall? The way I see it though is that the placing of creation into a garden state is the ascent.

Makes sense to me. But do the scriptures explicitly say that the entire earth was the Garden of Eden? I've always imagined the garden of Eden being separate from the rest of the earth.

[thesometimesaint]

Rob:

Then how was the fossil record sorted in an order convenient for evolution? Ecological zonation, hydrodynamic sorting, and differential escape fail to explain:

the extremely good sorting observed. Why didn't at least one dinosaur make it to the high ground with the elephants?

the relative positions of plants and other non-motile life. (Yun, 1989, describes beautifully preserved algae from Late Precambrian sediments. Why don't any modern-looking plants appear that low in the geological column?)

why some groups of organisms, such as mollusks, are found in many geologic strata.

why organisms (such as brachiopods) which are very similar hydrodynamically (all nearly the same size, shape, and weight) are still perfectly sorted.

why extinct animals which lived in the same niches as present animals didn't survive as well. Why did no pterodons make it to high ground?

how coral reefs hundreds of feet thick and miles long were preserved intact with other fossils below them.

why small organisms dominate the lower strata, whereas fluid mechanics says they would sink slower and thus end up in upper strata.

why artifacts such as footprints and burrows are also sorted. [Crimes & Droser, 1992]

why no human artifacts are found except in the very uppermost strata. If, at the time of the Flood, the earth was overpopulated by people with technology for shipbuilding, why were none of their tools or buildings mixed with trilobite or dinosaur fossils?

why different parts of the same organisms are sorted together. Pollen and spores are found in association with the trunks, leaves, branches, and roots produced by the same plants [stewart, 1983].

why ecological information is consistent within but not between layers. Fossil pollen is one of the more important indicators of different levels of strata. Each plant has different and distinct pollen, and, by telling which plants produced the fossil pollen, it is easy to see what the climate was like in different strata. Was the pollen hydraulically sorted by the flood water so that the climatic evidence is different for each layer?

[Rivers]

And just like that, you have negated the need for a fall. If God created the world in a mortal, fallen state with physical death, then there is no need for a Garden and fruit and Fall. He could select any of the mortal humanoids living in cities, farming, reading and writing, and give some of their children God Spirits instead of Animal Spirits, and that would start the whole process.

Yeah God could have done that. But man needed to exercise agency and choose to fall from God's presence.

[mfbukowski]

Makes sense to me. But do the scriptures explicitly say that the entire earth was the Garden of Eden? I've always imagined the garden of Eden being separate from the rest of the earth.

It was "where Adam was at".

You can take that any way you like- psychologically or geographically.

[Rivers]

It was "where Adam was at".

You can take that any way you like- psychologically or geographically.

I like to think of the Garden of Eden being in some metaphysical realm or dimension.

[thesometimesaint]

Rivers:

I believe the Garden was a real physical place here on this planet. But wherever it was it isn't there now.

[consiglieri]

Anybody have good ways of interpreting this scripture that would make more sense with what we now know about the age of the earth?

Although doubtless in the minority, I would tend to see this interpretation of the seven seals as meaning what John symbolically intended it to mean; the fulness of the earth's continuance through its temporal existence.

Because seven is the number representing fullness and completeness (and 1,000 as an enhancer of sorts), it would be natural for John the Revelator to typify the full and complete temporal existence of the earth as a period of seven thousand years.

To my mind, this has nothing to do with the actual time elapsed.

Similarly, the first Genesis account of creation is described as occuring in seven days; not because that is really how long it took, but because it was God doing the creating, and the fulness of God's creations would mandate the use of the number seven from an ancient Hebrew perspective.

At least, that's my take on it.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Questing Beast]

It's all simple as pie: in Joseph Smith's day the age of the earth was not understood by scientific testing methods. Religious assertions held weight. Now they do not. So science, again, shows error in uninformed religious assertions. And does this disprove religion? No. Religion morphs continually in the light of knowledge. A Bronze Age savage using the first writing did not know anything about thermodynamics or physics, etc. So "let there be light!" was good enough....

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

It's all simple as pie: in Joseph Smith's day the age of the earth was not understood by scientific testing methods. Religious assertions held weight. Now they do not. So science, again, shows error in uninformed religious assertions. And does this disprove religion? No. Religion morphs continually in the light of knowledge. A Bronze Age savage using the first writing did not know anything about thermodynamics or physics, etc. So "let there be light!" was good enough....

As I recall JS believed the earth to be much older than 7,000 years old.

[cinepro]

As I recall JS believed the earth to be much older than 7,000 years old.

Like I said earlier, we're talking about two different things.

There's "the age of the Earth", which includes the period of creation up until the Fall of Adam, and then there's the "Temporal Age of the Earth", which is the time from which the Fall of Adam introduced mortality and physical death onto the planet.

For example, here's what the OT Teacher's manual says about the time period of the creation:

Length of the Creation

The length of time required for the Creation is not known. The term day in the scriptural account of the Creation does not represent a 24-hour period. The Hebrew word yom can be translated as “day,” “time,” or “period.” The Apostle Peter said that “one day is with the Lord as a thousand years” (2 Peter 3:8; see also Abraham 3:4).

Ever since the days of Joseph Smith, official Church publications have universally taught that "the age of the Earth" is undetermined and can be as old as many millions and billions of years (meaning, the six "days" of creation took that long), but that the "Temporal Age of the Earth" started around 4,000 BC, and before that time there was no physical death.

Here is how Elder Nelson summarizes it:

The plan required the Creation, and that in turn required both the Fall and the Atonement. These are the three fundamental components of the plan. The creation of a paradisiacal planet came from God. Mortality and death came into the world through the Fall of Adam. Immortality and the possibility of eternal life were provided by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 14 The Creation, the Fall, and the Atonement were planned long before the actual work of the Creation began.

When we try to reconcile the scriptural "creation" with evolution, we end up discarding two of Elder Nelson's three "fundamental components of the plan", since we don't reconcile so much as we just discard the Church's teachings in favor of the theory of evolution.

D&C 77 (and this thread) is talking about the second part, the "Temporal Age of the Earth" from the time of Adam's fall, not the creation period of undetermined length.

[BCSpace]

Makes sense to me. But do the scriptures explicitly say that the entire earth was the Garden of Eden? I've always imagined the garden of Eden being separate from the rest of the earth.

As have I. My impression though is that because there is doctrinal evidence for both the entire earth and a specific local, the matter is unclear. I'm not sure either how both could be true at once.

[BCSpace]

Yes, it is quite plain that there was a creative period before the Garden state of no death as per 2 Nephi 2:22. This creative state does not have the property of no death attached to it. Rather, according to the scripture, when the creation was finished, that which was created was placed into a state of no death. Thus it is a true and reasonable statement that one can state there was no death before the Fall (Garden state) and also that there was death and evolution before the Garden state.

And just like that, you have negated the need for a fall. If God created the world in a mortal, fallen state with physical death, then there is no need for a Garden and fruit and Fall.

I'm still looking for you to explain how so especially in light of 2 Nephi 2:22 in which we see that the creation was accomplished and then they were placed into a state of no death. What that means is creation could have been accomplished via evolution (and death) befor ethe garden state. This jives perfectly with the doctrine I presented earlier on D&C 77:6. The temporal earth, after the Fall, is really the only mortal time period for whcih the plan of salvation is in operation. Everything before that was just preparation.

[thesometimesaint]

Mola Ram Suda Ram:

Yes JS believed the earth was 2 and 1/2 billions of years old. However his methodology for arriving at that figure was not scientific in any sense the word.

[cinepro]

I'm still looking for you to explain how so especially in light of 2 Nephi 2:22 in which we see that the creation was accomplished and then they were placed into a state of no death. What that means is creation could have been accomplished via evolution (and death) befor ethe garden state. This jives perfectly with the doctrine I presented earlier on D&C 77:6. The temporal earth, after the Fall, is really the only mortal time period for whcih the plan of salvation is in operation. Everything before that was just preparation.

As a counterpoint, I suppose we can turn to what the Church has published on the subject:

Thus we learn that the initial creation was paradisiacal; death and mortality had not yet entered the world. There was no mortal flesh upon the earth for any form of life. The Creation was past, but mortality as we know it lay ahead. All things had been created in a state of paradisiacal immortality. It was of this day that Lehi said: “And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.” (2 Ne. 2:22.) If there is no death, all things of necessity must continue to live everlastingly and without end.

---------------------------------------------------

Thus, “all things” were created as spirit entities in heaven; then “all things” were created in a paradisiacal state upon the earth; that is, “spiritually were they created,” for there was as yet no death. They had spiritual bodies made of the elements of the earth as distinguished from the mortal bodies they would receive after the Fall when death would enter the scheme of things. Natural bodies are subject to the natural death; spiritual bodies, being paradisiacal in nature, are not subject to death. Hence the need for a fall and the mortality and death that grows out of it.

Thus, as the interpolative exposition in the divine word explains, “I, the Lord God, planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there I put the man whom I had formed.” (Moses 3:8.) Adam, our father, dwelt in the Garden of Eden. He was the first man of all men in the day of his creation, and he became the first flesh of all flesh through the Fall. Because of the Fall “all things” changed from their spiritual state to a natural state. And thus we read: “And out of the ground made I, the Lord God, to grow every tree, naturally, that is pleasant to the sight of man; and man could behold it. And it became also a living soul. For it was spiritual in the day that I created it.” (Moses 3:9; italics added.)

There is no evolving from one species to another in any of this. The account is speaking of “every tree” and of “all things.” Considering them as one collective unit, the account continues: “It remaineth in the sphere in which I, God, created it, yea, even all things which I prepared for the use of man; and man saw that it was good for food.” (Moses 3:9.)

Christ and the Creation, Bruce R. McConkie

And here's how Robert Millet (not an apostle, but it is published by the Church) summarizes the doctrine...

When it came time to begin our second estate, mortality, it was appropriate for God our Father to call upon Michael to receive a tabernacle of flesh and become earth’s first inhabitant. Luke’s genealogy of Jesus ends with a noble description of Adam, “the son of God” (Luke 3:38; see Moses 6:22). Adam’s name means “man” or “mankind,” and his position as the “first man of all men” (Moses 1:34) suggests the eminence of his premortal status.

In the morning of creation, Adam, Eve, and all forms of life existed in a paradisiacal condition. All things were physical. But they were also spiritual in the sense that they were not mortal, not subject to death (see 1 Cor. 15:44; Alma 11:45; D&C 88:27).

[BCSpace]

I'm still looking for you to explain how so especially in light of 2 Nephi 2:22 in which we see that the creation was accomplished and then they were placed into a state of no death. What that means is creation could have been accomplished via evolution (and death) befor ethe garden state. This jives perfectly with the doctrine I presented earlier on D&C 77:6. The temporal earth, after the Fall, is really the only mortal time period for which the plan of salvation is in operation. Everything before that was just preparation.

As a counterpoint, I suppose we can turn to what the Church has published on the subject:

A common theme of yours in post after post and thread after thread on this issue is that you never explain how any of this is in conflict with what I said. How is this any sort of counter-point? I can even agree with the statement "There is no evolving from one species to another in any of this." because all the relevant evolution occured before any of that which BRM is speaking about. Indeed the initial condition of the created earth, when man was placed in the garden, was paradisiacal. But what were the conditions during the creative process? It doesn't say.

[mfbukowski]

I like to think of the Garden of Eden being in some metaphysical realm or dimension.

That works