Should Medical Abortion Be Restricted?

[CV75]

Want to decrease the number of abortions? Keep it safe, keep it legal, and keep it rare.

I think licensing would go a long way to meeting this particular aim. We license marriages; many aspects of licensing recognizes the need to bringing forth and protect children by the couple, in the best interests of individuals and their communities/societies.

Individuals need to apply to become legally separated and divorced; we have licensed people that dissolve marriages, remove children from homes, etc.; we have people licensed to assist in birth and abortion, and to kill people (execution, law enforcement, military action, "pull-the-plug" scenarios" etc.). Licensing people to obtain an abortion would put in place many protections for the applicant as well as the unborn and the impacts of the abortion (or not to abort) decision on society.

[thesometimesaint]

CV75:

I think a problem would arise in the determining just who, under what conditions, could get that license.

[CV75]

I think a problem would arise in the determining just who, under what conditions, could get that license.

Of course, but it is not impossible to work something out as part of a comprehensive public policy reform. Some of the value in licensing is in highlighting the importance of the decision being important to society, ensuring a competent decision is made, helping support the costs of making the best decisions, ensuring an opportunity to educate and to fulfill one's duty to be educated on the options, etc. It would help minimize the administration of penalties and criminal proceedings by charging fees in line with the purpose for the abortion up-front.

[CV75]

I also offered it up since nobody responded to my last post!

[blueadept]

The most compelling argument to me, against what I think is valid cause for abortion, is that I have a niece who was raped and became pregnant. She opted to follow through with the birth. She has a beautiful 4 year old daughter... aptly named Grace.

I met a pro-life speaker who was given up to adoption since she was a product of rape. She has a powerful message and an obvious opinion on the subject. I say it affected my girls and myself as well. I feel fairly confident that if the unfortunate case of rape happens to either daughter, I'm under the impression they've already chosen adoption as their choice they will take. Hopefully, they won't be tested on THEIR belief of what is right for them.

[LeSellers]

I guess what got my dander up in LeSeller's comment was the blantant statement that, "in spite of the news, there are very few rapes anywhere in the world", ...

First, please call me Lehi, as my mother-in-law does and as (gratefully) former Presidents Clinton and Carter did.

If that statement raised your dander, you did not read what I wrote. What you saw was strongly colored by your experience and the lenses it imposed on you. As I pointed out earlier, you have not quoted me correctly. You left out an important clarification. In the next clause, I make it obvious that the "very few rapes" does not refer to the absolute number, it is a relative number. The math you so dislike illustrates this conclusively.

and then his complicated mathmamatical formualtions, based on so many assumptions...

If you object to the assumptions, I invite you to show me where they are wrong. I hope you will recognize that my assumptions were extremely biased against my own position.

Does the average adult woman in USmerica have only twenty sexual events in a year? I think it's rather higher than that. Are there really 100,000 rapes a year (both reported and unreported)? The number is, by all the estimates I have seen substantially lower than that. You are more than welcome to show where these assumptions make a different conclusion more reasonable than the one I advanced; indeed, I would be grateful were you to show my mistake.

If you object to the "complicated mathematical formulations", then please show me where they were in error. If anything, I was wrong based on a multiplication by 10 instead of by 5, which was what I said I was doing. That made my calculation half as dramatic as the math would have indicated.

We cannot discuss this in anything like a reasonable fashion if the only basis is emotion. Statistics are an important, a critical, tool in this discussion.

And, please recall, the subject is not rape, it's abortion.

Sexual assault is not a generic thing... It cannot be truly understood as a mathamatical formulation, or in generic terms... As you said, Mudcat, there is a Human Factor that the numbers don't represent!! Assault is a very REAL, horrifying, life altering event... And, there are some women who do concieve as a result of this event... Some of those women are strong enough to carry to term, and give a child up for adoption... Some women simply cannot... They are too broken, and mentally fragile...

I truly do not think that any person can judge a woman in this situation unless they have walked in her shoes... And, even then, every person responds to assault differently, so maybe people shouldn't judge at all...

I agree with all of the above quote. But we must remain focused on the subject: a hypothetical restriction on abortion. We are not discussing rape, per se.

Few here, not I, certainly, are saying that all abortion must be outlawed. But I am saying that abortion must be rare, far less than the millions we see around the world every year. And those who object to it on any grounds should not be compelled to pay for it. This last is immoral on a completely different basis, but no less immoral for that.

In addition, I am sure those in your position recognize that the pro-abortion lobby is using you and your survivor sisters as the proverbial "poster children", parading your tear-stained cheeks, hiding behind your bloodied skirts to justify their killing of millions of babies, the vast majority of whom are not the product of rape or incest.

Whether you agree with their using you in this matter is as personal as your reaction to the assault. But I know enough other "survivors", as you name them, who do object, and object strenuously. Yet other survivors, the babies of those coerced unions, also object.

People who want to shut down the discussion of how rape plays into the politics of abortion do neither themselves nor unborn generations any favors. It was in this vein that I raised the "complex mathematical formulations".

Further, it was at your request that I developed and posted them. had it been up to me, the numbers would not have appeared here at all.

Lehi

[Mudcat]

I met a pro-life speaker who was given up to adoption since she was a product of rape. She has a powerful message and an obvious opinion on the subject. I say it affected my girls and myself as well. I feel fairly confident that if the unfortunate case of rape happens to either daughter, I'm under the impression they've already chosen adoption as their choice they will take. Hopefully, they won't be tested on THEIR belief of what is right for them.

I sincerely hope they never have to face that decision Blue.

The issue of rape and pregnancy is certainly a sensitive one. I don't know if I am right or not in my thinking on it.

To me it seems that if a woman is a victim of rape, shouldn't be held accountable for the possible consequences of bearing or raising a child, when she wasn't given a choice in matter at all.

I think the women who do so in such circumstance are inspiring.

I agree that adoption is a better alternative to abortion.

But I don't see that a woman who chooses to abort in that circumstance is taking some sort of low road in a moral perspective. To me I can see why a woman would want to be rid of the consequences of her being transgressed against.

Because I am a man, there is no way I can truly even hypothesize about what I might do in that circumstance. I do have a wife and daughter. I hope and pray that neither have to make such a decision and I am uncertain as to what council I would actually offer them.

[mfbukowski]

First, please call me Lehi, as my mother-in-law does and as (gratefully) former Presidents Clinton and Carter did.

Oh yeah?

Well my wife used to know Jay North who played Dennis the Menace on TV.!

So there!! How cool is that?

[Stargazer]

Abortion policy should be based on measures such as viability and development, not life or the murky idea of whether the fetus has a soul.

Oddly enough, I agree with you.

Absent divine revelation on this point, I think it is something that is being left up to us to decide based on the measures you suggest. And I suspect that we won't see any divine revelation on this point, because if it were something God felt was as important as some people seem to think it is, then the God of the Mosaic code would have been specific on it.

[Stargazer]

Oh yeah?

Well my wife used to know Jay North who played Dennis the Menace on TV.!

So there!! How cool is that?

That's cool, of course.

Perhaps even cooler might be the fact that my father accompanied Prince Charles and his entourage on a demonstration flight of the Concorde airliner from Heathrow to Paris and back in 1970, at the personal request of the Prince.

[Stargazer]

First, please call me Lehi, as my mother-in-law does and as (gratefully) former Presidents Clinton and Carter did.

The first thing that comes to mind when you write this (as you have written it at least one other time) is the opening sentence of Moby ****: "Call me Ishmael."

The second thing is: since you're obviously name-dropping here, I suspect you would love an opportunity to explain what you had to do with Clinton and Carter that had them calling you by your first name. So, give. You've got my curiosity up. I'd guess that this acquaintanceship had to do with your military service, but please elaborate.

[mfbukowski]

Nah, I don't think he was name dropping- he was just emphasizing that he wanted her to know his first name.

Lehi's a cool guy!

[MorningStar]

But, couldn't I simply argue that we should err on the side of caution that fetus's are NOT persons, because of the pain it causes the mother to be forced to have a pregnancy as well? There is no reason I can't err on the other side of the line. Only problem is, we would never come to an agreement. I don't see a reasonable argument why we should think a fetus is a full fledged person. Potential just doesn't matter. Sperms have the potential to become human, yet they are not granted full protection under the law based on such (although the catholic church may have something to say about that ).

I am not comfortable with putting a fetus's right to life: when the fetus can't even make decisions, emotions, or feel pain- above the mothers who we KNOW feels pain, has autonomy/goals that are being interfered with etc. I would rather "err on the side of caution" and say a fetus is not a person.

I realize that I am drawing the line (technically) of personhood AFTER even the birth. However, consider the following classic example:

Say that you fell asleep one night, and woke up in the hospital. You later find out that the Musical Society of Violinists have kidnapped you. Their start violinist got a terrible disease, and the only way he can survive is if you stay near him-plugged in- for 9 months. He is leeching off of your blood. If you pull the plug and go free, he will certainly die without you, and no one else can be plugged into him. Do you have a moral obligation to stay plugged in?

Now this is assuming full personhood, but you probably don't think you do. Would you be comfortable forcing someone ELSE to do it, even if you yourself were willing (because you loved his music or something).

The example I think clearly illustrates that we don't have moral obligations to people when we did not intend to. It would be nice, and if it is not inconvenient we certainly should- but who could say that one is obligated to?

Oh man. I was hoping never to see this terrible analogy again.

First of all, would I let a man die if I had the ability to save his life? No! What am I going to say, "Gee, that's too bad you're dying, but you're inconveniencing me."?

Second, if I caused a man to have a terrible disease and the only way to keep him alive was to plug him in to me, then yes, I am obligated to keep him alive.

A friend of mine has cancer. If plugging him into my body for 9 months could save him, I would totally do it! Small price to pay for him to see his daughters grow up and get married.

[bluebell]

Oh man. I was hoping never to see this terrible analogy again.

First of all, would I let a man die if I had the ability to save his life? No! What am I going to say, "Gee, that's too bad you're dying, but you're inconveniencing me."?

Second, if I caused a man to have a terrible disease and the only way to keep him alive was to plug him in to me, then yes, I am obligated to keep him alive.

A friend of mine has cancer. If plugging him into my body for 9 months could save him, I would totally do it! Small price to pay for him to see his daughters grow up and get married.

That analogy only works when compared to someone getting pregnant through rape or incest. It completely falls apart when trying to compare it to pregnancy which results from someone choosing to have sex (safe sex or not).

And if people are going to use common philosophical analogies as justification for their actions, they should read the ones that support the other side of the issue as well.

[emeliza]

Using the statistics Lehi offered. In O4, roughly 1.3 million abortions were performed in the US. Also in 04 about 4.1 million children were born in the US. Crunching those numbers, you get a 24% abortion to pregnancy ratio.

IOW. 1 out of every 4 pregnancies in the US was aborted in 2004.

That is a staggering figure, IMO.

My question though is how many of the abortions in these figures were to fetuses that died of natural reasons in the womb. One of my friends from high school got pregnant. When she was about 2 months along she had a miscarriage only the baby didn't come out as it was supposed to, her body didn't abort it. So she had to go and get it cleaned out. It was so hard on her. Anyway after it was all said and done, to make it even worse, it was billed as an abortion since that is what they did, they aborted the dead baby from instead of her. So my question is, how many abortions are really just this type of situation. I know this type of stuff happens and fairly often. I just didn't know that it would be considered an abortion at least for the medical billing part. If the statistics for abortions are based on medical billing though, they would be counted.

[LeSellers]

The first thing that comes to mind when you write this (as you have written it at least one other time) is the opening sentence of Moby ****: "Call me Ishmael."

There is no intentional connection.

The second thing is: since you're obviously name-dropping here,

To quote our friend mfb, "I don't think he was name dropping- he was just emphasizing that he wanted her to know his first name."

He's dead on.

I suspect you would love an opportunity to explain what you had to do with Clinton and Carter that had them calling you by your first name. So, give. You've got my curiosity up. I'd guess that this acquaintanceship had to do with your military service, but please elaborate.

Dying to tell is not only a gross overstatement, but represents the antithesis of my position. I really do not relish talking about either man.

My direct (albeit at a distance) connections with Clinton were both painful: First he delayed our taking off from LAX while he got his $500 hair cut, and the second was having to wait, at 10:30 at night, while desperately trying to get back to base the the Presidio of San Francisco so I could sleep before an important briefing I was giving to the commander the next morning. His motorcade blocked the road I was on for twenty minutes while I was nodding off. The motorcade turned left a block before the intersection where I was waiting.

(I had a similar experience with Joe Biteme a few months ago. His motorcade blocked the freeway for a half hour while I was trying to get to work. I'd have been there 20 minutes early but actually arrive nearly an hour late because of the egotistical narcissism of yet another political hack.)

As to the incidents where each called me by my first name, Carter signed my commission as a First Lieutenant and Clinton signed my retirement papers. In addition to the official paperwork, there were "personal" letters thanking me for my service. Both named me as "Lehi", just as my birth certificate (I actually have one and will show it to anyone who asks, unlike some federal officials), school records, and passport all show.

I just prefer "Lehi" to "LeSellers" in this forum. That's all.

Lehi

[CV75]

My question though is how many of the abortions in these figures were to fetuses that died of natural reasons in the womb. One of my friends from high school got pregnant. When she was about 2 months along she had a miscarriage only the baby didn't come out as it was supposed to, her body didn't abort it. So she had to go and get it cleaned out. It was so hard on her. Anyway after it was all said and done, to make it even worse, it was billed as an abortion since that is what they did, they aborted the dead baby from instead of her. So my question is, how many abortions are really just this type of situation. I know this type of stuff happens and fairly often. I just didn't know that it would be considered an abortion at least for the medical billing part. If the statistics for abortions are based on medical billing though, they would be counted.

The surgical procedure termed “dilation and curettage” is used to describe and bill for any widening or opening of the cervix and the subsequent removal of part uterine lining and/or contents of the uterus using scraping and scooping instruments, regardless of the purpose (abortion is only one, there are several conditions that are treated in this fashion).

[LeSellers]

My question though is how many of the abortions in these figures were to fetuses that died of natural reasons in the womb. ... I know this type of stuff happens and fairly often. I just didn't know that it would be considered an abortion at least for the medical billing part. If the statistics for abortions are based on medical billing though, they would be counted.

While there may be a large absolute number, my experience (admittedly limited) says they are not relatively frequent and that of the 1.3 million slaughtered in '04, only a handful were spontaneous abortions that failed to expel the fœtus.

Technically, what you described was not an abortion, since "to abort" means to terminate an active process. That her child was already dead meant that there was no active process (an ongoing pregnancy) to terminate, hence, no abortion. Insurance companies like to have things fall into neat packages. But I doubt their accounting system is imposed on the statistics we saw above.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

<derail>

The surgical procedure termed “dilation and curettage” is used to describe and bill for any widening or opening of the cervix and the subsequent removal of part uterine lining and/or contents of the uterus using scraping and scooping instruments, regardless of the purpose (abortion is only one, there are several conditions that are treated in this fashion).

The abbreviation is "D&C" which is why I do not use that string to represent the Doctrine and Covenants, preferring "Dov&Cov" to avoid any sniggering connection between the scripture and the procedure.

</derail>

Lehi

[Nathair/|\]

<derail>

The abbreviation is "D&C" which is why I do not use that string to represent the Doctrine and Covenants, preferring "Dov&Cov" to avoid any sniggering connection between the scripture and the procedure.

</derail>

Lehi

Yeah, we were warned in the MTC not to call it that. Me being just a hick from Toole County, Montana; I'd never heard of D&C meaning anything other than the book of scripture.

[CV75]

<derail>

The abbreviation is "D&C" which is why I do not use that string to represent the Doctrine and Covenants, preferring "Dov&Cov" to avoid any sniggering connection between the scripture and the procedure.

I only mention it because to me, it highlights how abortion can be viewed in strictly cold or amoral, clinical and financial terms and the human aspect is lost as just another procedure.

[LeSellers]

As most of us already know, Planned Parenthood was originally established, in part, to reduce the black population of USmerica. Apparently, it is succeeding.

Reports indicate abortion is the leading cause of death within the African-American community in the U.S. According to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), since 1973 — the year of the Supreme Court decision Roe v. Wade — 13 million African-American lives have been lost to abortion.

Peggy Elliott Ministries was honored ... at the recent Servant Awards celebration in Wichita, Kansas. Dr. Peggy Elliott, ministry founder and president, says it is time for the genocide to stop.

"Between abortion and black-on-black crime, as a people group we're exterminating ourselves. We're not loving our children in the womb or outside of the womb," she shares. "So I have to do whatever it is that I can do to help save babies' lives and to make an impact on our culture.

"We've become a culture of death -- and I want to be one of those used by God to move us from a culture of death to a culture of life."

Currently in Congress, every member of the Congressional Black Caucus identifies himself or herself as "pro-choice." Elliott laments that fact.

Blacks Exterminating Themselves

One wonders how so many liberals manage to support abortion unflinchingly.

Lehi

[Silver Girl]

I just prefer "Lehi" to "LeSellers" in this forum. That's all.

Lehi

So sorry to have not known what you prefer to be called... Perhaps having your User Name as Lehi might be a tad less confusing for those of us who are not in the know...

Silver Girl (Who, BTW, prefers to be called Silver Girl)

[LeSellers]

So sorry to have not known what you prefer to be called... Perhaps having your User Name as Lehi might be a tad less confusing for those of us who are not in the know...

I cannot use my own name here, someone else has taken the name "Lehi" on this forum. He has not posted in four or five years, maybe longer, but the name is locked up.

As noted above, I have made exactly the same statement several times this year (and long before that, too).

I do sign every message "Lehi" for all 9,000 or so messages I've written (although many are no longer on the data base due to at least two upgrades to the system). I'd hope that is not lost on those who read them.

Lehi

[Calm]

I cannot use my own name here, someone else has taken the name "Lehi" on this forum. He has not posted in four or five years, maybe longer, but the name is locked up.

As noted above, I have made exactly the same statement several times this year (and long before that, too).

I do sign every message "Lehi" for all 9,000 or so messages I've written (although many are no longer on the data base due to at least two upgrades to the system). I'd hope that is not lost on those who read them.

Lehi

What about using the alias "Lehi L. or adding something else? I think this would be very helpful. Even if you sign your comments with your real name, people tend to identify you with your alias....it's bigger and bolder and it is right up front when you start to read a post, not at the end when your mind is preoccupied with formulating your own?