Watershed Moment in General Conference?

[Nathair/|\]

Wow! I found the "over there" with a google search and I don't even have words for it.

After reading a few topics, I feel like my temple recommend is in jeopardy now.

The smell comes off after a few showers.

The smell, yes, but if you still feel soul-sick afterwards and can't get a blessing, try this.

[bookofmormontruth]

On the matter of women holding priesthood.

I have priesthood. I don't have priesthood in the Church. And I appreciate that.

It might help to realize that the Church is the Gathering of Israel. The Church constitutes the GATE . . . the very, very beginning entrance . . . to the kingdom of God. Thus, those who participate in the church are servants at the GATE . . . not a hierarchy over people. All the things that happen in the Church administratively and and salvifically are the first, or lowest, or weakest step in the covenant . . . not overlords. The Church (and its priesthood) is the INTERFACE between the kingdom of God on the one hand, and the world on the other. In other words, it has the potential to be a battle zone, and there ought not to be a necessity of sending daughters to that interface/battle zone, as a matter of salvific duty (although there may still be opportunities to participate for those who desire).

Obviously both men and women participate in the leadership and responsbility of this great and wonderful matter, for a variety of reasons.

However, it is my understanding that men are responsible for the blood and sins of this generation and this is connected with their priesthood in the Church. You can keep that, thanks. I appreciate the gift I have in not being required to have a (Church) priesthood in order to progress further in the kingdom of God. You brothers give that gift to us sisters by taking it on yourself -- leaving us free, of course, to create life and to create the inner(further, higher, holy of holies) portion of the kingdom of God. Thank you!

Oh great! Men will be the one creating/delivering kids in the afterlife?

[Nathair/|\]

On the matter of women holding priesthood.

I have priesthood. I don't have priesthood in the Church. And I appreciate that.

It might help to realize that the Church is the Gathering of Israel. The Church constitutes the GATE . . . the very, very beginning entrance . . . to the kingdom of God. Thus, those who participate in the church are servants at the GATE . . . not a hierarchy over people. All the things that happen in the Church administratively and and salvifically are the first, or lowest, or weakest step in the covenant . . . not overlords. The Church (and its priesthood) is the INTERFACE between the kingdom of God on the one hand, and the world on the other. In other words, it has the potential to be a battle zone, and there ought not to be a necessity of sending daughters to that interface/battle zone, as a matter of salvific duty (although there may still be opportunities to participate for those who desire).

Obviously both men and women participate in the leadership and responsbility of this great and wonderful matter, for a variety of reasons.

However, it is my understanding that men are responsible for the blood and sins of this generation and this is connected with their priesthood in the Church. You can keep that, thanks. I appreciate the gift I have in not being required to have a (Church) priesthood in order to progress further in the kingdom of God. You brothers give that gift to us sisters by taking it on yourself -- leaving us free, of course, to create life and to create the inner(further, higher, holy of holies) portion of the kingdom of God. Thank you!

Wow.

x2. I've never heard it said better.

Next time someone puts down the sheer spirituality and wisdom of women in this church, I'm going to smack them around, then make them read you, MnG, Deborah and Calmoriah for a while. I am truly uplifted to know y'all.

[mfbukowski]

The smell, yes, but if you still feel soul-sick afterwards and can't get a blessing, try this.

Believe it or not, in previous "lives" I have done that, and it works!

[why me]

I think it possible that this talk will be looked back on in future years as a turning point in women being allowed to hold the priesthood.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Never going to happen unless the lds church completely changes its superstructure. To give women the priesthood would completely change church dynamics and because of this, it will not happen.

[Maidservant]

Oh great! Men will be the one creating/delivering kids in the afterlife?

Ha ha! Cute, even though I'm not exactly sure what you are referencing or replying to in what I'm saying . Although I should mention that Heavenly Father (male) sure seems to be doing all the babysitting. When my husband and I switched--I worked, he became a stay at home dad--because of his health issues . . . he of course was very unsure about the spiritual appropriateness of this arrangment, having been taught all his life to be a breadwinner. I told him, "Honey, you are going to be with the kids and making sure they are all right 24/7. How many men in this world have the privilege you will be having to do exactly as Heavenly Father is doing now?"

Thank you for your kind words all of you.

[consiglieri]

So much for your "watershed moment."

I hope you didn't destroy too many brain cells sniffing so hard.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

The Taming of the Shrews ?

How wonderfully percipient of you, MnG!

Especially ironic, given that by the end of the play, Kate realizes her proper role as a wife is to have her hand under the foot of her husband.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

This thread makes me think of the title of a famous Shakespeare comedy.

The Tempest?

[LDS Guy 1986]

Never going to happen unless the lds church completely changes its superstructure. To give women the priesthood would completely change church dynamics and because of this, it will not happen.

This is what many said about blacks and the priesthood pre 1978, remember that the heavens are open and that nothing is set in stone, further revelation from God to his prophets mean that anything can be brought in better harmony with the celestial laws, laws that we only have a primitive understanding of and have a lot to learn about as a people.

I agree that with the understanding and knowledge we currently have that it is very unlikely that women will be ordained to the priesthood, but we have not received all the Lord will reveal yet either, when people get attached to non doctrinal policy (for position I define doctrine as the three essential elements of salvation 1) Faith in Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father 2) Obedience to there commandments 3) Enduring to the End) they are setting themselves up for apostasy.

When we in out less than perfect understanding think that something can never happen we are deceiving ourselves because we do not yet have the perfect understanding that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ has, they are free to bring our telestial laws more in line with the celestial law that only they full comprehend at any time, if they feel we are ready. When people in our limited understanding of the celestial law, try and say something is eternal when we have no assurance at this time, we are setting the foundation for us to fall away from the truth because of our pride should the Lord reveal we are incorrect.

As I have repeatedly said in various threads on this forum, follow the Living Prophet , what he reveals as the Lord's Will do. Every time there is policy changes especially ones that are surrounded in controversy (polygamy, priesthood ban, ect) you see break away groups and much apostasy from the truth because members felt that they know better than the Lord does. We need to forsake our pride in our mortal understanding, and accept that this is Christ's Church not ours and be humble enough to follow his called prophet when the Savior tells him to lead us.

If a Prophet of God, tells me that women are to be ordained into the priesthood I will be the first to offer my service to see it happen, even though I do not understand why this change has come.

The opposite is the same as well as long as the Living Prophet makes no such statement, I will not entertain nor support any speculation about previous women ordained into the priesthood, or other theories. What happened in the past was the speculative decisions of previous prophets now interpreted long after they passed away, without any official position on them. We are to follow the Living Prophet not dead prophets, they can not longer receive the will of the Lord for us since they are now on the other side of the veil.

Follow the Living Prophet and you will never turn away from the straight and narrow path back to Heavenly Father's presence.

[consiglieri]

It's one of the males who wants to be the champion of live (and presumably dumb) Mormon women.

Love's Labours Lost.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

After some reflection, I think a watershed moment may have been achieved in the Saturday morning session of general conference in Elder Cook's talk.

He spoke of a relief society president who received revelation for the priesthood holders in the ward and shared it with the bishop who ran with it and brought so many of the priesthood holders back into activity.

This was remarkable.

First, it completely undermined the tropes we have heard for years about revelation being appropriate solely for those people over whom one has stewardship. Under this view, only the bishop (or possibly elder's quorum president) would have authority to receive revelation for reactivating priesthood holders. The relief society president was completely out of line in the revelation she received under this view and should have been reprimanded accordingly.

But Elder Cook not only sanctioned her revelation, but canonized it in a general conference talk.

I think it possible that this talk will be looked back on in future years as a turning point in women being allowed to hold the priesthood.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

It is called Ward Council

[consiglieri]

Henry V.

Loved the newer movie with Branaugh.

Olivier always makes my kidneys sore.

But pardon, gentles all,

The flat unraised spirits that hath dar'd

On this unworthy scaffold to bring forth

so great an object.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Or perhaps it show that women don't need the priesthood to receive revelation...

I would give you a point if I could, so...

[consiglieri]

If it wouldn't cast undue aspersions on Consiglieri's intelligence, I might liken this thread to an utterance of one of Billy Shakespeare's characters (scroll down to MacBeth's third exchange with Seyton), part of which Billy Faulkner took as the title to one of his novels.

Lay on, MacDuff,

And damn'd be him that first cries, "Hold, enough!"

[USU78]

But pardon, gentles all,

The flat unraised spirits that hath dar'd

On this unworthy scaffold to bring forth

so great an object.

Dramatic irony's funny stuff: the object of its mischievous pranks, by definition, is never aware he is being had.

[emeliza]

My understanding is that this women had an idea. Most likely inspired. You could even consider it a revelation. She told the 'proper authority' who could then prayerfully determine if it was in fact revelation and put it into action. How is that not okay? She didn't go and try to put her idea into action without going thru the chain of command we have been given. Not only that, but she was part of the ward counsel so her ideas, opinions, inspiration, revelation, etc was asked for.

The thread seems to be jumping thru a lot of semantic hoops, but I am not sure why. The women in question didn't over step any bounds put on her by God. She didn't get up in Fast and Testimony and start preaching revelations for the Church. She had an idea, an inspiration, a revelation and took it to the person who did have the authority. He had the ability to reject it or to accept it.

Consig, don't you sometimes get ideas, inspiration, revelation for others that you share with them? Isn't it then up to that person to make the decision whether what you said is true for them or not?

[consiglieri]

Never going to happen unless the lds church completely changes its superstructure. To give women the priesthood would completely change church dynamics and because of this, it will not happen.

I'm glad you made this comment, WhyMe, because it helps illustrate my point.

Significant changes in policy (and even doctrine) tend to happen piecemeal over time, not all at once.

From early Church days, Relief Society did not have power to make decisions regarding the brethren, but they were almost a group apart with plenary authority over their members, without intrusion from the Priesthood.

Under the Correlation Program instituted by Harold B. Lee circa 1970, all Church programs and auxiliaries, including Relief Society, were subsumed under the Priesthood.

We are now seeing a trend away from that patriarchal hegemony, as women have been allowed on councils that make decisions over priesthood holders, thus extending the stewardship of at least some women over the priesthood.

This is quite different from what was had before Correlation, though.

Women have gone from being relatively independent of the priesthood, to being completely subject to the priesthood, to having authority and stewardship by way of their inclusion on councils over those who hold the priesthood.

I continue to see this as a significant shift in power.

And if this trend should continue, the natural culmination will be women ordained to priesthood offices.

By the time we arrive at that point, however, it will not be seen as a "complete change" in the church's "superstructure," but rather just the natural consequence of what has gone before.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

Wow! I found the "over there" with a google search and I don't even have words for it.

After reading a few topics, I feel like my temple recommend is in jeopardy now.

While I can understand your culture shock, BOMT, the fact remains that I have encountered many fine people over there, some members and some not.

At least I am pretty much the same over there as I am here.

Other posters assume a very different manner of expressing themselves.

Please, I beg of you, do not search out any of Will Schryver's posts "over there."

Talk about culture shock!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[TAO]

Consig, did you read what I had posted earlier...? Some women already have a type of priesthood...

[consiglieri]

This is what many said about blacks and the priesthood pre 1978, remember that the heavens are open and that nothing is set in stone, further revelation from God to his prophets mean that anything can be brought in better harmony with the celestial laws, laws that we only have a primitive understanding of and have a lot to learn about as a people.

This is a good point, LDS Guy.

How many posters who rail against the idea that women may some day receive the priesthood simultaneously extol the virtues of President Benson's fourteen essentials for following the prophet?

Didn't he say something about the words of a living prophet being more important than the words of a dead prophet . . . ?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[TAO]

Wow! I found the "over there" with a google search and I don't even have words for it.

After reading a few topics, I feel like my temple recommend is in jeopardy now.

Yeah, that place over there can be pretty bad :/

[consiglieri]

Sisters have much more control than they realize.

I agree with the first part of this sentence while respectfully dissenting from the latter.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

Dramatic irony's funny stuff: the object of its mischievous pranks, by definition, is never aware he is being had.

O, I am fortune's fool!

[Hamba Tuhan]

Dramatic irony's funny stuff....

Speaking of which:

From what I read before I headed out for lunch, though, I shared the same view that many posters are determined to read nothing into any talk that does not challenge their previously held ideas.