Watershed Moment in General Conference?

[LDS Guy 1986]

I didn't hear that in the talk, I am hearing that here from people who don't seem to want to acknowledge that a woman recieved revelation for men higher in rank. Elder Cook was clear that she gave insight into why many of the men were not more involved/active.

We need to examine to text of the talk when it comes out.

Here is the talk:

At approx 3:40 he says that the Relief Society and Priesthood leadership needs to work together, not one ranking over the other like you assert.

Throughout the talk he speaks about men and women working together, not one ranking over the other.

You must of missed what was said at 11:00 forward, he says that the RS president asked to bring up a point (which the spirit confirmed the truth of to the Stake President not the RS President) in a reactivation meeting. She said they need to focus on young men who never went on a mission and feel like second class citizens because they are no longer able to go on a mission.

Some of these men were single and some were married, it was decides by the council (again working together) that they would reach out to these brethren and sisters (for those with spouses) as a stake to relieve the Bishoprics to focus on the young men in there wards.

Please tell me where in his example (which runs from 11:00 to 12:45) does he say anything about the RS President receiving revelation for the Stake President?

As it was repeatedly said (but not brought up in the talk) the motivation here seems to be getting inactive men rescued and ordained into the priesthood and gettitng them to the temple to be married. This focuses specifically on the RS Presidents role to look out for the spiritual welfare of here Sisters, this revelation was received for her sisters but needed the help of the Stake President, to work.

He isn't saying that the Sister received revelation for the Stake President, he is saying the Sister received revelation to help here fellow sisters find worthy men to marry (or have get an inactive husband worthy to marry there wife in the temple) she brought this idea to the Stake President about these inactive men during a Stake reactivation meeting, and the Stake President received revelation that the Sister's message was inspired and true. The Stake President and Stake Relief Society President worked TOGETHER, not one over the other.

The Sister received revelation that was important to her role, and presented an option to here Stake President and he received revelation that this is what needed to happen. Both Presidents were doing the will of the Lord, and without BOTH of them working together as equals this rescue would of been impossible.

The point of the message is to stop this petty bickering over women and men's roles and to start working together in our callings to do the Lords work.

[LeSellers]

the President had concern for the welfare of here fellow sisters who's husbands were inactive.

A minor point: "fellow sisters" is both redundant and contradictory. "Sisters" is sufficient.

She wasn't receiving revelation for the Priesthood Leadership, she received revelation for her fellow Sisters that needed the assistance of the priesthood leadership.

All too true.

I am reminded of the story wherein a missionary who'd died while serving, appeared to his mother and told her that he was well and happy, doing the work he'd been called to do. He told her also that he'd been trying to reach out to his father, but that he was too busy.

Perhaps the Stake President was focused on other important things, and just had not requested this kind of inspiration. Perhaps he was not prepared for this revelation, perhaps the Relief Society President needed to experience, perhaps any number of things that made this particular case fall out as it did.

But, in any case, it was not a Whitmer peep stone moment. She was perfectly entitled to the revelation she received because it did affect her stewardship directly. She needed support from the Stake President and the others whose Priesthood authority would enable her to make it work. Her acts were in accord with her calling, and that of the Stake Brethren.

Lehi

[LDS Guy 1986]

I didn't hear Elder Cook's story.

Well, that seems to be the underlying problem of your post, you are trying to comment without knowledge of the topic.

Here is Elder Cook's talk from General Conference, his discussion of the topic in the OP is covered from 11:00 to 12:45.

[Anijen]

Charity Never Faileth a Discussion on Relief Society. Ensign March 2011

Jeffrey R. Holland

What the Relief Society is doing is helping teach the gospel in a uniquely powerful way, with a special women

[cinepro]

Well, that seems to be the underlying problem of your post, you are trying to comment without knowledge of the topic.

Here is Elder Cook's talk from General Conference, his discussion of the topic in the OP is covered from 11:00 to 12:45.

Elder Cook tells an interesting story, and he words it with precision that indicates to me that he knew he was walking through a minefield.

Ultimately, his key comment is at 12:45:

This account is but one example of how critical our sisters are in the work of salvation in our wards and stakes and how they facilitate revelation (especially in Church councils).

fa

[rameumptom]

The Relief Society President is part of the Ward/Stake Council. Her responsibility is over the families, strengthening them, and ensuring the priesthood functions efficiently to bless those families. She had a right to the revelation, especially when no one else was listening to the Spirit. That she counseled with her leader, who with his authority approved this idea, was the correct manner in which to implement it.

The bishop/Stake president has responsibility for revelation received in the ward/stake. He determines whether it is appropriate/correct or not. But he is guided in the new Handbook of Instructions to seek the advice and inspiration of the sisters on the Ward/Stake Council. IOW, the proper procedure was followed. And that Preparing for Exaltation Teacher's Manual is dated somewhat.

There really is no reason others cannot receive revelation. They just can't run with the revelation without the approval of appropriate priesthood authority.

[Deborah]

Watershed moment? Really. I've been on church councils over the years and bishops have been very attentive to what the sisters had to say. Even as a Singles leader I had to instruct the bishop on the program and how it was supposed to be implemented. I've even had a bishop ask me specifically what he should do about a situation. Giving inspired counsel isn't outside the authority of any leader of an organization. A president of an organization has a responsibility for those under her stewardship and sometimes that means to effectively help those under her she has to get others involved. The story illustrates how counsel is given and taken and revelation follows.

[zerinus]

After some reflection, I think a watershed moment may have been achieved in the Saturday morning session of general conference in Elder Cook's talk.

He spoke of a relief society president who received revelation for the priesthood holders in the ward and shared it with the bishop who ran with it and brought so many of the priesthood holders back into activity.

This was remarkable.

First, it completely undermined the tropes we have heard for years about revelation being appropriate solely for those people over whom one has stewardship. Under this view, only the bishop (or possibly elder's quorum president) would have authority to receive revelation for reactivating priesthood holders. The relief society president was completely out of line in the revelation she received under this view and should have been reprimanded accordingly.

But Elder Cook not only sanctioned her revelation, but canonized it in a general conference talk.

I think it possible that this talk will be looked back on in future years as a turning point in women being allowed to hold the priesthood.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

There is nothing new about that. That idea has already been brought up and discussed in the Leadership Training Meetings that the General Authorities held to introduce the new Church Handbooks of Instruction, in which a lot of emphasis has been placed on the Ward Council, and the welfare committee is discontinued, and PEC downgraded. Everything now happens in the Ward Council, and all members of the council, and especially the sisters, are assigned the responsibility to contribute to the inspired decisions that the council or the bishopric ultimately make. The role of the sisters is especially mentioned and given importance to. So you have been out of touch a little bit. I suggest you go and watch the videos relating to the two Leadership Training Meetings held following the publication of the new Church handbooks. You can watch the proceedings here and here.

[LDS Guy 1986]

The Relief Society President is part of the Ward Council. Her responsibility is over the families, strengthening them, and ensuring the priesthood functions efficiently to bless those families. She had a right to the revelation, especially when no one else was listening to the Spirit. That she counseled with the Bishop, who with his authority approved this idea, was the correct manner in which to implement it.

There really is no reason others cannot receive revelation. They just can't run with the revelation without the approval of appropriate priesthood authority.

First, this was not a ward council, but a Stake reactivation meeting, so it appears that you need to listen to the talk before you make false comments on it.

Second, It was the Stake Relief Society President who asked to present her thoughts on the reactivation effort (not to command or demand anything like most present this as).

Third, the only mention about revelation at all here is the Stake President that the Stake after hearing the Stake Relief Society President's remarks.

The whole point of the talk was that women are a vital part of the Church leadership, that without the Stake President and Relief Society President working together and helping each other these 63 men would of not been reactivated.

[Deborah]

I am reminded of the founding of the Relief Society. The women came up with the idea and presented a charter to Joseph Smith. Joseph saw what they were doing and received a revelation that he had something better and revealed the organization under the Priesthood with the power of the Priesthood to move forward.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I am reminded of the founding of the Relief Society. The women came up with the idea and presented a charter to Joseph Smith. Joseph saw what they were doing and received a revelation that he had something better and revealed the organization under the Priesthood with the power of the Priesthood to move forward.

I think the problem though is that many think that the Relief Society is a "second class citizen" origination, they stubbornly think that unless women are ordained into priesthood offices that they are seen as inferior to men.

Of course in reality nothing is farther from the truth, the Sisters of the Church are deeply involved in Church leadership, and according to Elder Cook's talk, they are the most satisfied of there roles in the Church out of all surveyed faiths.

For some though that is not enough, they want to see the Church as bigoted and sexists unless they get all there demands.

I support women holding priesthood offices, if and only if that is the will of the Lord revealed through his prophet, it appears that some do not have sufficient faith in the Lord to let him work what he wants, when he wants too.

Like another talk in General Conference said, they seek to grow there way instead of submitting to the will of the gardener.

[zerinus]

Error

[zerinus]

I don't think BookofMormonLuvr was saying he believed that President Hinkley received revelation, only that how can a member of the LDS Church believe Hinckley received revelation and not this Relief Society President.

What it comes down to is many will not take the talk into the proper context that the revelation was received because the President had concern for the welfare of here fellow sisters who's husbands were inactive.

She wasn't receiving revelation for the Priesthood Leadership, she received revelation for her fellow Sisters that needed the assistance of the priesthood leadership.

She was receiving revelation as a member of the ward council. Her membership of the council entitles her to that privilege. What is the point of her being a member of the council otherwise, if not to make inspired contributions to the council?

[LDS Guy 1986]

She was receiving revelation as a member of the ward council. Her membership of the council entitles her to that privilege. What is the point of her being a member of the council otherwise, if not to make inspired contributions to the council?

The point of being a member of a Stake (not ward) Council is to help the Stake President receive the knowledge he needs to receive revelation and make decision for the Stake. Only the Stake President has the keys to receive revelation for the Stake, other can inspire the Stake President to receive revelation but revelation only comes to the person who hold the keys, which in this case is the Stake President.

The Relief Society President can only receive revelation for the Relief Society, which I feel that she did. She did not receive revelation for the Stake and the talk made this very clear, her ideas inspired the Stake President to receive revelation for the Stake.

Only the person who holds the keys can receive revelation, the stake RS president hold the keys for all the adult women of the Stake. The Stake President holds the keys for every person in the Stake, so the RS president cannot receive revelation for the Stake only for the women of the Stake, because she doesn't hold the proper keys.

Now her inspired idea did, cause the Stake president to receive revelation for the entire stake.

[cinepro]

She was receiving revelation as a member of the ward council. Her membership of the council entitles her to that privilege. What is the point of her being a member of the council otherwise, if not to make inspired contributions to the council?

On that point, I don't think it was ever claimed that she had actually had a "revelation". People have good ideas all the time without God's help, even in Church, and I've never heard it claimed that people can't have good ideas outside of their stewardships or share them in a council.

It's only when we start to claim that the good idea is "revelation" that we get into sticky areas.

[LDS Guy 1986]

It's only when we start to claim that the good idea is "revelation" that we get into sticky areas.

I agree, when one starts talking of revelation everything seems to go to you know where in a hand basket because people have varied beliefs on what is revelation and what isn't.

[LeSellers]

when one starts talking of revelation everything seems to go to you know where in a hand basket because people have varied beliefs on what is revelation and what isn't.

Whatever "revelation" is, it is a requirement of those who hold callings in the Church, including parents.

Everyone who has any stewardship (and we all have a stewardship over ourselves) should receive revelation for that stewardship. If we do not, we are not fulfilling the calling, and we are not living up to our privileges.

Lehi

[zerinus]

The point of being a member of a Stake (not ward) Council is to help the Stake President receive the knowledge he needs to receive revelation and make decision for the Stake. Only the Stake President has the keys to receive revelation for the Stake, other can inspire the Stake President to receive revelation but revelation only comes to the person who hold the keys, which in this case is the Stake President.

The Relief Society President can only receive revelation for the Relief Society, which I feel that she did. She did not receive revelation for the Stake and the talk made this very clear, her ideas inspired the Stake President to receive revelation for the Stake.

Only the person who holds the keys can receive revelation, the stake RS president hold the keys for all the adult women of the Stake. The Stake President holds the keys for every person in the Stake, so the RS president cannot receive revelation for the Stake only for the women of the Stake, because she doesn't hold the proper keys.

Now her inspired idea did, cause the Stake president to receive revelation for the entire stake.

I am not sure I can entirely go along with that. I didn't say she received revelation "for" the stake president or the stake (or ward, or the bishop). I said as a member of the council. Being a member of the council entitles her to receive inspiration to help move forward the cause of the council. The presiding officer (bishop or stake president) makes the final decision; but the members of the council are entitled to inspiration and revelation by virtue of their membership of the council, to help move forward whatever cause the council is considering.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Whatever "revelation" is, it is a requirement of those who hold callings in the Church, including parents.

Everyone who has any stewardship (and we all have a stewardship over ourselves) should receive revelation for that stewardship. If we do not, we are not fulfilling the calling, and we are not living up to our privileges.

Lehi

I agree with you here 100%, the problem though is that not everyone else agrees with this statement, you also got to wade through the fact that one can only receive revelation for those that they have stewardship over. Parents can receive revelation for there children, but not for the primary leaders, young men leaders, or young women leaders even if there children are members of these groups.

One can only receive revelation for those they preside over not those who preside over them, one can have a good idea and bring it to there presiding leadership and that idea can be the cause for there leadership to receive revelation but that is the presiding leaders revelation not theres since the presiding leader is the only one with the keys to receive revelation for that group.

[zerinus]

On that point, I don't think it was ever claimed that she had actually had a "revelation". People have good ideas all the time without God's help, even in Church, and I've never heard it claimed that people can't have good ideas outside of their stewardships or share them in a council.

It's only when we start to claim that the good idea is "revelation" that we get into sticky areas.

"Good ideas" usually are revelations, although we may not normally consider them as such.

[zerinus]

I agree, when one starts talking of revelation everything seems to go to you know where in a hand basket because people have varied beliefs on what is revelation and what isn't.

Most revelations take the form of good ideas. I liked Elder Bednar's Conference talk. I think he explained it well. I have had similar thoughts myself for a long time, but he articulated them better that I might have done.

[zerinus]

I agree with you here 100%, the problem though is that not everyone else agrees with this statement, you also got to wade through the fact that one can only receive revelation for those that they have stewardship over. Parents can receive revelation for there children, but not for the primary leaders, young men leaders, or young women leaders even if there children are members of these groups.

One can only receive revelation for those they preside over not those who preside over them, one can have a good idea and bring it to there presiding leadership and that idea can be the cause for there leadership to receive revelation but that is the presiding leaders revelation not theres since the presiding leader is the only one with the keys to receive revelation for that group.

One can also receive revelation by virtue of membership of a decision-making body, such as a ward or stake council. The presiding officer (bishop or stake president) will be entitled to the gift of discernment to recognize that as a revelation or inspired counsel, and make appropriate use of it.

[LDSGuy]

I just think that its a fullfillment of prophecy that women shall have "visions" and receive revelation. Our children will do the same as they begin to understand the process of revelation. That does not mean that some change in doctrine or policy is going to happen. The leaders of the church, general and local, can receive guidance often through the comments of others.

[LDS Guy 1986]

The presiding officer (bishop or stake president) will be entitled to the gift of discernment to recognize that as a revelation or inspired counsel, and make appropriate use of it.

But see when the Holy Ghost reveals to him the truth of the inspiration, it is now his revelation since he is the only one that can receive revelation for the stake or ward. A council member cannot receive revelation for the stake or ward, they can be a source of inspiration for revelation. That inspiration my have a divine source or not, but only the person with the proper keys can receive revelation for a group.

Just like Emma was the inspiration for the Word of Wisdom, that revelation was still received by Joseph Smith even though Emma was the inspiration for the revelation.

[Pahoran]

After some reflection, I think a watershed moment may have been achieved in the Saturday morning session of general conference in Elder Cook's talk.

He spoke of a relief society president who received revelation for the priesthood holders in the ward and shared it with the bishop who ran with it and brought so many of the priesthood holders back into activity.

This was remarkable.

First, it completely undermined the tropes we have heard for years about revelation being appropriate solely for those people over whom one has stewardship. Under this view, only the bishop (or possibly elder's quorum president) would have authority to receive revelation for reactivating priesthood holders. The relief society president was completely out of line in the revelation she received under this view and should have been reprimanded accordingly.

But Elder Cook not only sanctioned her revelation, but canonized it in a general conference talk.

I think it possible that this talk will be looked back on in future years as a turning point in women being allowed to hold the priesthood.

Any thoughts?

Yes.

I think your "watershed moment" is nothing more or less than a Church council performing as it should. I think such councils don't just exist so that presiding officers can hand down their previous decisions, and the other participants can simply accept them; I think such councils involve real discussions, and real decisions are made in them. I think that is the way it has always been, since time out of mind.

I think no "tropes" have been "undermined." Not even slightly, let alone "completely."

I think no "revelation" was "canonized."

Those are my thoughts.

Regards,

Pahoran