Grace in Sacrament Meeting

[Darth J]

I think this rather reinforces my point about reading comprehension. Here is what comes under the "bitter litany".

As you can see, that list of gripes (if you prefer), has nothing to do with your views of the Bible and restoration scriptures.

My view of the scriptures has nothing to do with my beliefs about them? This is a typo, right? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that this isn't what you meant to say.

Please define inordinate. Is there anything there that one should not be doing? Is there anything there that when puurposefuly left undone, or avoided, doesn't speak to the motives and priorities of the individual?

The OP already explains this. When people are becoming neurotic because of the pressure to conform to church standards, the requirements are inordinate.

But it's probably just another of those coincidences that have nothing to do with Mormons that Utah leads the United States in the rate of depression.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/story?id=4403731&page=2

From the above:

"Availability to resources, a lack of professionals and barriers to treatment, including the ability to pay all drive up instances of depression," said Dr. Curtis Canning, a Logan-based psychiatrist and former president of the Utah Psychiatric Association. "But there is also -- especially when it comes to women and girls -- a cultural factor."

Seventy percent of Utah's residents are Mormon. When Express Scripts issued its first national survey of prescription drug use in 2002, it sparked a heated debate across Utah about what, if any role, the church played in the state's high dependence on antidepressants such as Prozac and Zoloft.

"In Mormon culture females are supposed accept a calling. They are to be constantly smiling over their family of five. They are supposed to take supper across the street to an ill neighbor and then put up with their husband when he comes home from work and smile about it the whole time. There is this sense that Mrs. Jones down street is doing the same thing, and there is this undercurrent of competition. To be a good mother and wife, women have to put on this mask of perfection. They can't show their tears, depression or agony," Canning said.

"Obedience, conformity and maintaining a sense of harmony" are unspoken but widely recognized behaviors, which all contribute to what he calls "the Mother of Zion syndrome."

This observation is consistent with what the OP is describing. Is this the experienced conclusion of a mental health professional, or an anti-Mormon rant?

[Darth J]

Priesthood ordinances are "grace". That's why one of them is called "the Endowment", "the gift".

Lehi

And there are no strings attached to getting this "gift" of the temple endowment. And no money that must be paid to the Church to get it, either. Right?

[bluebell]

I dispute whether or not those conditions exist, as do other people who do not believe that there is any necessity of performing rituals or conforming to the social norms of a particular denomination to be at peace with God.

Then we have come back to the beginning.

Explain to me why one man is saved and another isn't?

And feel free to explain what I have interpreted incorrectly in saying---and supporting it with reference to LDS teachings---that the Church teaches that receiving grace from God depends on receiving priesthood ordinances and continuing obedience to church leaders. As soon as you can show me that LDS doctrine that says we do not have to obey church leaders and participate in ordinances for Jesus to extend grace to us, I will find your unsupported assertions more compelling.

The LDS church teaches that grace is received when someone enters into a covenant with Christ by having faith in Him, repenting of there sins, and being baptized. Once a person 'enters the gate', they are on the path which leads to eternal life-they are saved.

As long as they remain on that path by continuing in the covenant they have made by continuing to have faith in Christ, repent of their sins, and obey His commandments, their salvation is assured through the Grace of Christ.

Anything more or less than this which you have said is where you have interpreted incorrectly.

[Darth J]

Then we have come back to the beginning.

Explain to me why one man is saved and another isn't?

I don't believe God works that way. You're barking up the wrong tree.

The LDS church teaches that grace is received when someone enters into a covenant with Christ by having faith in Him, repenting of there sins, and being baptized. Once a person 'enters the gate', they are on the path which leads to eternal life-they are saved.

As long as they remain on that path by continuing in the covenant they have made by continuing to have faith in Christ, repent of their sins, and obey His commandments, their salvation is assured through the Grace of Christ.

Anything more or less than this which you have said is where you have interpreted incorrectly.

Please specify what I have said that is more or less than this. I already quoted an Aaronic priesthood manual that explicitly teaches that God gives us a one-way ticket and we have to earn our way back by rituals and doing what church leaders tell us to do. You have demonstrated nothing to the contrary.

[bluebell]

And there are no strings attached to getting this "gift" of the temple endowment. And no money that must be paid to the Church to get it, either. Right?

The fact that there are conditions to recieve something, doesn't impact whether or not it is free or whether or not it is a gift.

If i offer my child a car, but state that they must get their driver's license first before they can have it, it doesn't make the car any less 'free' or any less of a gift.

This idea that something is only a gift if absolutley nothing is required of the person receiving it is completely illogical. By this definition, gift cards are not gifts because you have to drive to the store before you can use them, and presents are not gifts because you must unwrap them first...children are not gifts from God because they must be concieved through intercourse, developed by the woman's body, and birthed through intense pain and suffering.

Until people can get rid of their illogical definition of what constitutes a gift, they will never understand the gift of grace or salvation completely.

[LeSellers]

And there are no strings attached to getting this "gift" of the temple endowment. And no money that must be paid to the Church to get it, either. Right?

Which has nothing at all to do with my point. Why do you imagine I truncated your message when I replied?

I'm not rebutting your claim (however snide) that obedience to law is a requirement for "grace". I'm trying to define it. I do not believe that "grace" means "an unmerited gift". And no "Bible-only" Christian should either, since the phrase does not appear in scripture.

Lehi

[bluebell]

I don't believe God works that way. You're barking up the wrong tree.

Then common sense would dictate that you explain to me how you think God works in terms of salvation. We really didn't need to waste a whole post by me having to ask you to explain that, did we?

I already quoted an Aaronic priesthood manual that explicitly teaches that God gives us a one-way ticket and we have to earn our way back by rituals and doing what church leaders tell us to do. You have demonstrated nothing to the contrary.

Where does the manual say that?

[Darth J]

The fact that there are conditions to recieve something, doesn't impact whether or not it is free.

If i offer my child a car, but state that they must get their driver's license first before they can have it, it doesn't make the car any less 'free' or any less of a gift.

This idea that something is only a gift if absolutley nothing is required of the person receiving it is completely illogical. By this definition, gift cards are not gifts because you have to drive to the store before you can use them, and presents are not gifts because you must unwrap them first...children are not gifts from God because they must be concieved through intercourse, developed by the woman's body, and birthed through intense pain and suffering.

Until people can get rid of their illogical definition of what constitutes a gift, they will never understand the gift of grace or salvation completely.

Your analogies are not particularly convincing or applicable. I cannot walk into a store and just take a gift card without paying for it because it is a "gift card." I have to buy it. Whether I then us that gift card on myself or give it to someone else, I still had to pay for it. If I give it to you without getting anything in return, it is a gift. If you have to do something before I give it to you, then by definition it is not a gift.

The car thing is not comparable to what the Church teaches, either. To be analogous to the Church, the kid would have to pay Dad for the car, and after the money was in Dad's hand, the car would be a "gift." Except the car would never be paid off; the kid would have to keep making payments for his entire life (tithing) and do whatever the person claiming to be the babysitter (ecclesiastical leaders) tell him Dad wants him to do---for life. And the kid would also have to participate in a bunch of rituals to drive the car, too (ordinances).

Your habit of talking about what the Church teaches without reference to what the Church actually teaches is carrying over into your argument about the meaning of words. This is what the word "gift" means:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gift

1. something given voluntarily without payment in return, as to show favor toward someone, honor an occasion, or make a gesture of assistance; present. 2. the act of giving. 3. something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned: Those extra points he got in the game were a total gift. 4. a special ability or capacity; natural endowment; talent: the gift of saying the right thing at the right time.

[mercyngrace]

Which has nothing at all to do with my point. Why do you imagine I truncated your message when I replied?

I'm not rebutting your claim (however snide) that obedience to law is a requirement for "grace". I'm trying to define it. I do not believe that "grace" means "an unmerited gift". And no "Bible-only" Christian should either, since the phrase does not appear in scripture.

Lehi

Elder Holland:

[Darth J]

Which has nothing at all to do with my point. Why do you imagine I truncated your message when I replied?

I'm not rebutting your claim (however snide) that obedience to law is a requirement for "grace". I'm trying to define it. I do not believe that "grace" means "an unmerited gift". And no "Bible-only" Christian should either, since the phrase does not appear in scripture.

Lehi

I never claimed to be a "Bible-only" Christian, or a believer in the Bible, so I don't know why you think that responding to the idea in Christianity that God arbitrarily condemns the human race because of original sin but will save you if you ask really nicely has anything to do with the fact that God has a lot of quid pro quo clauses in dispensing all these free gifts, according to the teachings of the LDS Church.

[Darth J]

Elder Holland:

[mercyngrace]

I'm really not interested in unsupported platitudes about what someone thinks the Church teaches, and Selek's links and mine demonstrate what I am arguing.

You're free to put me on ignore. You'll notice my comment was a response to Lehi.

edit: That isn't meant to be snarky. Just sincere.

[Darth J]

Then common sense would dictate that you explain to me how you think God works in terms of salvation. We really didn't need to waste a whole post by me having to ask you to explain that, did we?

I don't know that salvation exists at all in the sense that you are meaning, and "common sense" does not require my offering an alternative---any more than my saying that you don't need to sacrifice chickens to Odin before undertaking a voyage requires me to then explain which god you should offer sacrifices before undertaking a voyage. Or that if I don't see any meaningful reason to pray to a statue of Zeus, then logic compels me to explain which statues are worthy of adoration.

Where does the manual say that?

I already quoted it in this thread:

http://lds.org/ldsor...0003a94610aRCRD

Explain that we all had a similar experience before we came to this earth. Our Father in Heaven explained to us about the earth that he had prepared. He taught us what would be expected of us if we chose to come here. He let us know that if we wanted to come to earth, he would ensure our mortal birth. Similar to Bishop Peterson

[Jeff K.]

Considering the atonement was for all, given by the grace of Christ, it seems fairly obvious that such a path, the only path, is offered as a gift to the alternative path where no gift is given. It is only by the grace of God that the gift is offered since no one else can provide it and God and Christ do not need to provide it. It becomes the gift.

[bluebell]

I don't know that salvation exists at all in the sense that you are meaning, and "common sense" does not require my offering an alternative---any more than my saying that you don't need to sacrifice chickens to Odin before undertaking a voyage requires me to then explain which god you should offer sacrifices before undertaking a voyage. Or that if I don't see any meaningful reason to pray to a statue of Zeus, then logic compels me to explain which statues are worthy of adoration.

In a discussion, common sense implies that one explains themselves if it's clear that the other person doesn't understand them.

I already quoted it in this thread:

http://lds.org/ldsor...0003a94610aRCRD

Explain that we all had a similar experience before we came to this earth. Our Father in Heaven explained to us about the earth that he had prepared. He taught us what would be expected of us if we chose to come here. He let us know that if we wanted to come to earth, he would ensure our mortal birth. Similar to Bishop Peterson

[bluebell]

The car thing is not comparable to what the Church teaches, either. To be analogous to the Church, the kid would have to pay Dad for the car, and after the money was in Dad's hand, the car would be a "gift." Except the car would never be paid off; the kid would have to keep making payments for his entire life (tithing) and do whatever the person claiming to be the babysitter (ecclesiastical leaders) tell him Dad wants him to do---for life. And the kid would also have to participate in a bunch of rituals to drive the car, too (ordinances).

Again you show that you don't actually understand what the church teaches.

Your habit of talking about what the Church teaches without reference to what the Church actually teaches is carrying over into your argument about the meaning of words. This is what the word "gift" means:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gift

1. something given voluntarily without payment in return, as to show favor toward someone, honor an occasion, or make a gesture of assistance; present. 2. the act of giving. 3. something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned: Those extra points he got in the game were a total gift. 4. a special ability or capacity; natural endowment; talent: the gift of saying the right thing at the right time.

Then i guess all those commercials that offer the free gift with a purchase of 50 dollars or more are confused. It's not a gift, darth J says so!

[Calm]

"follow the prophet" is the more practised mantra.

I've always heard the "search, ponder, and pray" much more often once I got past sunbeams.

[volgadon]

My view of the scriptures has nothing to do with my beliefs about them? This is a typo, right? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that this isn't what you meant to say.

You aren't helping your case much. Let me try and simplify things, hope springs eternal, but you never know. Let us call "bitter litany" (your complaints against certain practices of the LDS church) part A, and "view of scriptures" part B. In this particular case part B is irrelevant to part A (and your original, and subsequent, misreadings), no matter what bearing B may have on why you believe A, or vice-versa.

[volgadon]

And to reiterate, you called certain LDS practices "scriptures", when I was talking about how grace is described in the scriptures. It really was a ridiculous misreading, and for you to persist in defending that misreading just makes your post look sillier.

[CV75]

Priesthood ordinances are "grace". That's why one of them is called "the Endowment", "the gift".

...which is probably why He never taught it as part of His doctrine (by name) Himself, such as in 3 Nephi 11. It is an attribution coming from those who have actually experienced His doctrine, as a means to conceptualize and explain their observations and conclusions regarding their salvation.

[thesometimesaint]

We teach Grace every Sunday in the Church.

[consiglieri]

Your list of links to what the Church and its leaders have said is not a riposte to the OP, but an affirmation of the problem: "she felt burdened to the point of snapping by all the obligations placed on her by the Church."

You can't imagine how glad I am to see you posting on this thread, DarthJ.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

The solution is to quit piling so many callings and responsibilities on members...

I see where you are coming from now, SilverKnight, and I agree.

Every week in sacrament meeting since I pointed this out to my wife, she leans over to me each time the speaker says something more we need to do and says, "There's another one."

It is really surprising how much you see this happen when you start keeping track.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri (Italian for Flame of the West)

[Zakuska]

Why does even Paul tell us that certian "rituals" establish us in Christ?

Romans 13:14

But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Galatians 3:27

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Because that is the "Doctrine" of Christ!

Hebrews 6

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Faith, repentance, Baptism (Plural: water and fire) Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, ressurection, judgement.

And the only place I hear this taught is in the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints!!!

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[consiglieri]

That hardly seems godly since our Father didn't fear we'd sin. He KNEW we would.

Here I think you come to a subject inextricably linked with God's grace.

If God wanted us to keep the commandments, why does He give commandments He knows we can't keep?

If God chose, He could give us commandments we could keep.

So why doesn't He . . .?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri