Palerider Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 That's my understanding of grace at least... A different tune than the old preaching that used to be given. For being championed for it's plainess I feel the Nephi statement "after all we can do" only adds to the confusion.
ELF1024 Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 A different tune than the old preaching that used to be given. For being championed for it's plainess I feel the Nephi statement "after all we can do" only adds to the confusion.Well, for what it's worth, I don't find it confusing. I find it to be a very plain clarification. Just because you have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ into your heart and been Baptized, you still must do all you can do. Even if that only means enduring the end.
Obiwan Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 Board rules: Personal attacks. You may dispute a member
Obiwan Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 You are correct to put grace in quote marks when you say that it is consistently taught in the LDS Church. Grace is not taught as Jesus offering a life preserver to a drowning man and all the man has to do is reach out and grab it. Grace is taught as a bundle of provisos, conditions, and conditions precedent. It is more like making sure you have paid your insurance premiums and filled out all the paperwork before Jesus will extend that life preserver. Meanwhile, you are still drowning. That's the kind of anxiety the OP is talking about.Anyone who wants to continue to point out the flaws in what many Protestants/evangelicals think about grace will get no argument from me, but doing so still fails to address the problem in the OP.And both you and the OP are in error..... Grace within mormonism in it's ideology exists and is doctrinally speaking and is taught such in ALL aspects of Grace, including the one you mention. Just because some small minority of mormons don't get certain things and some of them leave because of it, or must eventually learn it, doesn't mean mormonism doesn't teach all aspects of Grace. People who believe such like you and Consig simply don't know mormonism, you know "part" of it, not it's deep parts.
Obiwan Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 More and more I am seeing what you are saying.Judging from the comments of some other posters, it seems the piling on of burdens is justified as long as we talk a little on the side about grace.All the Best!--ConsiglieriWhat is your problem....??? I'm simply floored that a so-called fellow mormon who supposed to be a faithful mormon can have such absolutely ignorant and degrading views about the Church. Do you even read what you write??? "A little on the side about Grace"??? The whole Gospel of Christ in every aspect every teaching has a "grace" element to it. What in the world is your problem? Day by day I see you becoming more and more of the other side, believing perversion of mormonism, it's leaders, it's teachings. Man.
Obiwan Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 Does it matter how much Mormons speak of grace when they speak of it incorrectly?There are many aspects and levels to "Grace".... Mormons are not "speaking about it incorrectly". You are speaking incorrectly about mormonism and Grace, seeing only "one" part of it, rather than the tapistry of aspects, aspects for which several in this thread such as Zazuka have been posting scripture after scripture on it's aspects, clearly showing that there is more than one to the idea, but you ignore such. You just want the feel good version alone, but that's not what the scriptures state. Mormonism teaches the doctrines of God, not mens creations out of some scriptures and the ignoring of others.
Obiwan Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 I agree with this, Max, but this is most definitely not the teaching of the LDS Church.And because it is not the teaching of the LDS Church, many members feel burdened.All the Best!--ConsiglieriWrong again.... I've lived in many areas of the Church and many wards, and the Church most certainly DOES teach what he has stated, and does so regularily, and your and Paleriders, and the rest of the anti-mormons and ex-mormons who say we don't follow the Bible, whinning otherwise won't change that fact.
CV75 Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 Wow, CV75! Thanks for finding that quote.Now that I see it in its entirety, it seems to make even less sense to me.So mortal man is supposed to lift himself by his own bootstraps to become a god, the same way the acorn lifts itself by its own bootstraps to become an oak?It doesn
ELF1024 Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 There are many aspects and levels to "Grace".... Mormons are not "speaking about it incorrectly". You are speaking incorrectly about mormonism and Grace, seeing only "one" part of it, rather than the tapistry of aspects, aspects for which several in this thread such as Zazuka have been posting scripture after scripture on it's aspects, clearly showing that there is more than one to the idea, but you ignore such. You just want the feel good version alone, but that's not what the scriptures state. Mormonism teaches the doctrines of God, not mens creations out of some scriptures and the ignoring of others.It would seem that in the LDS Church we don't talk about "GRACE" but we do talk about The Atonement... Under the LDS definition it seems they are interchangeable...The Atonement Makes It Possible for Those Who Have Faith in Christ to Be Saved from Their SinsThink about how the parable in this section helps us understand the Atonement. Whom do the people in the parable represent in our lives?The Savior
Obiwan Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 No offence, mate, but the very first impression I ever got from one of your posts is that we've been attending completely different churches. A couple of years later, that impression hasn't faded. At all.I've been saying for a long time that many of his views makes him a wolf in sheep's clothing and in danger of becoming an anti or ex-mormon with the extreme negative/wrong positions he holds toward the Church. Some have judged me for it also, simply because he sometimes also makes some good posts, they think I shouldn't be critical of his blatantly "non-mormon" anti-mormon like viewpoints. I've never in my life seen an active and faithful LDS member have SO MANY degrading views toward the Church as he does. I've counted at least 10 over the past couple of years, and this one is the most blatantly worst. Something so BASIC and fundamental to mormonism and he doesn't understand it and us, and criticizes the Church for it. Sad.
Obiwan Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 Wow, CV75! Thanks for finding that quote.Now that I see it in its entirety, it seems to make even less sense to me.So mortal man is supposed to lift himself by his own bootstraps to become a god, the same way the acorn lifts itself by its own bootstraps to become an oak?I am thinking something doesn't quite fit here . . .But it is an excellent reflection of common Church teaching in the 1970's.All the Best!--ConsiglieriWrong again.... It's only ONE ASPECT and teaching on Grace within the Church, not the totality.Again, you're thinking like anti-mormons, cherry picking certain aspects and teachings on Grace within the Church and then acting like THOSE are the REAL and ONLY or MAIN teachings on Grace within the Church. Your views couldn't be more wrong as usual.
Obiwan Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 And FYI.... I'm attacking his views (opinions), not him per se.Of course, it's difficult to separate views from the person, so I can see why my words might seem more directly at him.I speak against anyone that is blatantly wrong, especially anti-mormons. And I speak against mormons if it's called for, and in this case it certainly is.
Obiwan Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 Consiglieri, you might want to sit thru Gospel Principles again, it seems you need refreshing on the basics.Many in this thread would agree....
Senator Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 Many in this thread would agree....Many wouldn't
ELF1024 Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 Many wouldn'tIt wasn't supposed to be an offensive statement... my apologies...
mercyngrace Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 And FYI.... I'm attacking his views (opinions), not him per se.Of course, it's difficult to separate views from the person, so I can see why my words might seem more directly at him.I speak against anyone that is blatantly wrong, especially anti-mormons. And I speak against mormons if it's called for, and in this case it certainly is.Let me break it down for you.Calling someone a "wolf in sheep's clothing" and saying they are "in danger of becoming an anti or ex-mormon" violates the board guidelines I posted above.
Jeff K. Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 The OP has been consistently shown to be incorrect from a wide variety of different and distinct voices in the church. Aside from the odd anti that agrees with the OP it would appear that the generalized consensus shows that grace is not only taught, and taught correctly, but that the saints understand its importance in the Atonement, and have responded accordingly. Of course one can fly into the face of all of the contradictory evidence presented in the posts (most who cling to a somewhat negative perception of the church often do), but reading the threads seems to indicate that the OP erred to the point of many posters thinking he was being unduly provocative and not really serious in his inquiry. So when one states "many wouldn't" I will put it up to a rhetorical flourish and response rather than a thoughtful rejoinder with evidence attached.
Jeff K. Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 Sometimes a private email does much better to tempering an issue than a public outcry.
Senator Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 It wasn't supposed to be an offensive statement......Just a bit patronizing...
ELF1024 Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 Just a bit patronizing...It wasn't intended to be. I just sat thru Gospel Principals last year, and enjoyed it thoughly. I think we should all do that at least once every five years. But that's the Gospel according to ELF....
Hestia Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 <strong class='bbc'>Automatic generated message</strong>This topic has been closed by a moderator.<strong class='bbc'>Reason:</strong> apparently some still don't know what the following mean:
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