Grace in Sacrament Meeting

[Palerider]

Are you actually trying to say that some other Church, like a Baptist Church for example, doesn't put a tremendous amount of pressure on it's members to fulfill their own important callings? Are you actually telling me that you don't think a pastor can put the guilt screws to his Church's membership in order to get things done? Show me a church that waits for people to volunteer based on the "milk of human kindness" alone, and I'll show you a church with no ushers, no choir director, no band, and no leadership.

Are you suggesting that other religions actually do require works? That's not what I heard in LDS Sunday school last month..........

[Zakuska]

Are you actually trying to say that some other Church, like a Baptist Church for example, doesn't put a tremendous amount of pressure on it's members to fulfill their own important callings? Are you actually telling me that you don't think a pastor can put the guilt screws to his Church's membership in order to get things done? Show me a church that waits for people to volunteer based on the "milk of human kindness" alone, and I'll show you a church with no ushers, no choir director, no band, and no leadership.

From my observations they put more emphasis and preasure on the members to fill the offering plate as it goes by.

[Palerider]

And yet those spiritual sacrifices and "services" he links with us serving each other in the body of Christ.

I have no problem with that......so what's your point?

[Palerider]

From my observations they put more emphasis and preasure on the members to fill the offering plate as it goes by.

No more so than tithing in the LDS faith. No tithing...No temple....No forever family.........

[Palerider]

Or a church that meets in the pastor's garage and sings hymns to a casette player.

Or perhaps even one that listens to their Preacher while He stands in a boat by the side of a lake?

[Zakuska]

I have no problem with that......so what's your point?

My point is he talks about specific callings people are given by the spirit. It seemed every one was complaining about all the church callings, so thats why I posted it.

[ELF1024]

Are you suggesting that other religions actually do require works? That's not what I heard in LDS Sunday school last month..........

I suppose that depends on what you consider "works".

I would suggest that the way we offer works, is different than how the Baptist Church defines works.

[Zakuska]

Or perhaps even one that listens to their Preacher while He stands in a boat by the side of a lake?

Theres always all the stories of the Missionaries conducting services in peoples living rooms until the Church gets better established in a new country/city/state.

When we go on vacation to our time share we attend church in a conference room in the Hotel. Of course they still have deacons and priests and all to bless and pass the sacrament etc.

[Palerider]

I suppose that depends on what you consider "works".

I would suggest that the way we offer works, is different than how the Baptist Church defines works.

I'm interested in your definition.....go ahead...

[SilverKnight]

Or perhaps even one that listens to their Preacher while He stands in a boat by the side of a lake?

For sure.

I would much rather listen to a brief lakeshore sermon than spend two hours in a stake training meeting.

[ELF1024]

I'm interested in your definition.....go ahead...

Since the Baptist Church, as with most evangelical church; doesn't believe in "works", I would say that they don't consider being a Preacher, or a youth leader, or being on the missionary comittee "works". They are just functions that need to be done to accomplish the work of the ministry.

So, by removing the everyday needs of the ministry, the only things that apply, would be the ordinances which we believe in which the Baptist Church, or any other evangelical church; does not.

1) Baptism

2) Comfirmation/Gift of the Holy Ghost

3) Aaronic Priesthood

4) Melchezidek Priesthood

5) Temple Ordinances...

[bluebell]

Nowhere.

What the Book of Mormon seems to say all over the place is that evil people (as defined by their acts) are saved solely through their faith in Christ and repentance with no outward "good" acts whatsoever.

I hope that makes my meaning plainer.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Your meaning was never in question and is not in despute in the least by me. I was simply clarifying, for you, the point of my post to palerider which you were confused about.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Disagree.

~ Elder Oaks

~ Elder Ballard

~ President Uchtdorf

My wife was recently called to a new position. THe wanted to make sure it was OK with me and that we would not feel over burdened (their words) because we have our hands full raising 4 small kids. My wife felt like she could do it and I was glad to spend time with just the kids and me. I did not at all feel burdened to do something. I would say that it is indeed the teaching of the church.

[Palerider]

My point is he talks about specific callings people are given by the spirit. It seemed every one was complaining about all the church callings, so thats why I posted it.

Precisely..........Actually he says the gifts differ according to the grace that is given us, but even if we use your term, "given by the spirit", nowhere does it say that a leader is giving us the "calling", assignment or the gift. We are only being encouraged to use well in service of each other, what particular gift grace has given us.

[Palerider]

For sure.

I would much rather listen to a brief lakeshore sermon than spend two hours in a stake training meeting.

[consiglieri]

I can't say if its indicative of any trend, but in my own ward I detected a glimmer of hope in this area with regard to my wife's most recent calling.

I think that bishop did the right thing in extending the calling in that way, and I think it should serve as a pattern for others.

I also think President Uchtdorf (among a few others) are starting to get the picture and have said some healing things, as quoted by mercyngrace.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Palerider]

Since the Baptist Church, as with most evangelical church; doesn't believe in "works", I would say that they don't consider being a Preacher, or a youth leader, or being on the missionary comittee "works". They are just functions that need to be done to accomplish the work of the ministry.

So, by removing the everyday needs of the ministry, the only things that apply, would be the ordinances which we believe in which the Baptist Church, or any other evangelical church; does not.

1) Baptism

2) Comfirmation/Gift of the Holy Ghost

3) Aaronic Priesthood

4) Melchezidek Priesthood

5) Temple Ordinances...

So if I have this correct, according to you the above ordinances (1-5) are what you consider works?

[consiglieri]

It isn't a new turn. I heard as much from Spencer Kimball when I first joined the church.

I believe Spencer Kimball, as much as I admire the man, was famous for having said we have to "lift ourselves by our bootstraps" in order to be saved.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

The presumption being the gatekeepers had legitimacy because they belonged to popular sects? Or are we stating the sanhedrin did indeed have cause to condemn Christ for breaking the Mosaic law?

The message being we have to be cautious as to whether the LDS Church acts more like the Sanhedrin or like the Savior.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

If you can't handle the calling, just have enough honestly with yourself and your Bishop to say "No".

Saying "no" to a calling from the Lord is commonly denominated a sin in the LDS Church.

Just sayin'.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

Your meaning was never in question and is not in despute in the least by me. I was simply clarifying, for you, the point of my post to palerider which you were confused about.

Groovy, baby!

[Calm]

Thank you for finding the quote, Cal.

Now, my question is this: Which thing(s) on Sister Robinson's list should she have dropped?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

That would depend on what was most important to her and what she believed the Spirit directed her to do.

[Calm]

More and more I am seeing what you are saying.

Judging from the comments of some other posters, it seems the piling on of burdens is justified as long as we talk a little on the side about grace.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Or people can learn to go to the Father when given a new opportunity to serve and confirm it with him first before accepting.

I have never been scolded or looked down upon when I have turned down callings....and I would say by now it's been about half of those offered to me over my lifetime. I give an explanation of why not and say that it isn't appropriate for me and my family at this time in my life, but if something else comes up, they should not hesitate to ask because things may have changed.

There are so many wonderful things we could be doing in life that if we had ten times of many hours in the day (and the capability to make full use of them) that we would not be able to accomplish them. The only reasonable (in my opinion) explanation is that part of mortality's purpose is to help us identify what is most important to us, to have and to hold and to do and not to do. Without limitations where we could do it all, we would never find out for sure.

[Zakuska]

Saying "no" to a calling from the Lord is commonly denominated a sin in the LDS Church.

Just sayin'.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Well, Jonah said no to a calling from the Lord and he ended up in the gut of a fish. Did he sin?

[Calm]

Saying "no" to a calling from the Lord is commonly denominated a sin in the LDS Church.

By whom and under what conditions? IOW, CFR