Grace in Sacrament Meeting

[consiglieri]

People complaining about "burdens" and stuff, is just a poor excuse. If you have too much to do, please learn how to say

[Palerider]

Yeah sure it would.

Teaching some incomprehensible religious platitude would solve everything.

How about the the leaders simply back off.

Teaching the kid about true grace would have just confused him.

And I am fairly positive he cares more about playing guitar and video games than saving people.

Silverknight,

I have heard you express this opinion earlier and wasn't sure why you come at it from this perspective. I'd like to understand your position better. Would it require a move to a different thread or can it be done here? I'm not all that familiar with protocol here.

[mercyngrace]

I agree with this, Max, but this is most definitely not the teaching of the LDS Church.

Disagree.

We should begin by recognizing the reality that just because something is good is not a sufficient reason for doing it. The number of good things we can do far exceeds the time available to accomplish them. Some things are better than good, and these are the things that should command priority attention in our lives.

~ Elder Oaks

Just a word to Church leaders: Be very careful that what you ask from members will help them attain eternal life. For Church members to be able to balance their lives, Church leaders must be sure they do not require so much from members that they have no time to accomplish their personal and family goals.

~ Elder Ballard

Strength comes not from frantic activity but from being settled on a firm foundation of truth and light. It comes from placing our attention and efforts on the basics of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. It comes from paying attention to the divine things that matter most.

Let us simplify our lives a little. Let us make the changes necessary to refocus our lives on the sublime beauty of the simple, humble path of Christian discipleship

[SilverKnight]

And because it is not the teaching of the LDS Church, many members feel burdened.

I can't say if its indicative of any trend, but in my own ward I detected a glimmer of hope in this area with regard to my wife's most recent calling.

Our baby daughter was born 6 months ago and my wife, who has held many leadership callings, has been on a "break". She was given a nominal creampuff calling, Visiting Teaching Coordinator, or something like that.

The bishop called and did something refreshing, he told her that the bishopric had been looking for a new member of the Young Womens Presidency and had thought of her, quickly adding that they knew she had just had a baby and didnt want to ask too much of her. They asked her to think about it and decide if she had the time, and if she felt she didn't, they completely understood.

She accepted eventually. And the bishop told her if it got to be too much to let her know and they would release her.

Giving a calling with an "out" like that surprised me, and made my wife feel much better about accepting the calling.

It seemed to me the right way to an extend a calling: asking the person first if they have the time, energy and desire to perform it.

[flashmax67]

I agree with this, Max, but this is most definitely not the teaching of the LDS Church.

And because it is not the teaching of the LDS Church, many members feel burdened.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Here again, people are just too nice in a sense of refusing to say "No", but its their own fault. The church most likely will not call time consuming positions to people who spiritual and physical are not able to do the calling and still say "Yes".

I understand that there are trials and God will bless those people who accept; but foremost a person needs to evaluate its life before accepting any "big" callings.

BTW, home teaching is NOT a big calling neither is primary teaching etc ... If a person feels burdened to do his/her visiting teaching, at least keep in touch and a phone call can be appropiate in a pinch (just an example).

[Palerider]

How did God and His prophets solve this problem the first time 'round? (after Sinai)

There is a great difference between "rejecting" (Israel) God's word and "misunderstanding" it (Mormons).

Misunderstanding implies a willingness to correct one's self if given the opportunity.

[Palerider]

Disagree.

~ Elder Oaks

~ Elder Ballard

~ President Uchtdorf

Excellent new turn in theology!

Quite a shift from the culture that would have grown out of this statement:

"a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation"

[semlogo]

Disagree.

~ Elder Oaks

~ Elder Ballard

~ President Uchtdorf

Good point. I really appreciated those comments from them.

[SilverKnight]

Silverknight,

I have heard you express this opinion earlier and wasn't sure why you come at it from this perspective. I'd like to understand your position better. Would it require a move to a different thread or can it be done here? I'm not all that familiar with protocol here.

It seems that LDS members feeling burdened, and the LDS (mis)understanding of Grace, are completely unrelated issues.

Furthermore, I don't think adopting a more Evangelical understanding of Grace by itself would mitigate the problem.

Of course a massive theological shift away from works and towards grace might indeed take the focus off obedience, but that is entirely unrealistic.

The simple solution is to just ask less of members, and make them feel like its okay to say "Sorry I don't have time."

No doctrinal modification is needed, merely an adjustment to the institutional culture of the church.

[Jeff K.]

Excellent new turn in theology!

Quite a shift from the culture that would have grown out of this statement:

"a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation"

[Jeff K.]

Here I have to respectfully disagree.

According to the gatekeepers of the Mosaic Law, Christ was a lawbreaker and rabblerouser who had to be put down and made to shut up lest he bring down their entire house of cards.

At least that's my read of the New Testament.

(Any similarity to this thread is entirely coincidental.)

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

The presumption being the gatekeepers had legitimacy because they belonged to popular sects? Or are we stating the sanhedrin did indeed have cause to condemn Christ for breaking the Mosaic law?

[Jeff K.]

"a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation"

Is completely consistent with the later statements. We sacrifice many things, including our sins.

[ELF1024]

The simple solution is to just ask less of members, and make them feel like its okay to say "Sorry I don't have time."

No doctrinal modification is needed, merely an adjustment to the institutional culture of the church.

Does the Church need to ask less of the members? Or does the membership at large just need to grow a backbone and say "No" when it's overwhelmed?

It sounds to me like it depends on where you place the blame/fault. I hardly think it's the Church's fault when you can't say no to calling. Bishop's aren't mind readers, nor are Relief Society Presidents, Young Women Presidents, or Stake Presidents for that matter. If you can't handle it because you have three screaming kids; or an inattentive spouse; or for whatever reason, you have the right, and the responsiblity to stand up for yourself.

If you can't handle the calling, just have enough honestly with yourself and your Bishop to say "No".

[mercyngrace]

Excellent new turn in theology!

Quite a shift from the culture that would have grown out of this statement:

"a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation"

[Palerider]

Is completely consistent with the later statements. We sacrifice many things, including our sins.

I disagree. And personally I don't see the forsaking of sin as a sacrifice of any sort.

[Palerider]

It isn't a new turn. I heard as much from Spencer Kimball when I first joined the church.

The church turns like a steamliner, big and slow. "New" as opposed to late 1800's- early 1900's.

[T-Shirt]

Excellent new turn in theology!

New? As far as I can remember, leaders have been cautioned to be careful in overburdening families. Elder Packer spoke of it in conference in 1998:

I do want to encourage leaders to carefully consider the home lest they issue calls or schedule activities which place an unnecessary burden on parents and families.

and

We must be careful lest programs and activities of the Church become too heavy for some families to carry.

and

Would our perspective be more clear if we could, for a moment, look upon parenthood as a calling in the Church. Actually, it is so much more than that; but if we could look at it that way for a moment, we could reach a better balance in the way we schedule families.

The whole talk is quite good. In the recent handbook training, leaders were asked to not call both husband and wife to demanding callings. I would agree, however, that it is a topic that could be addressed more regularly.

T-Shirt

[ELF1024]

I disagree. And personally I don't see the forsaking of sin as a sacrifice of any sort.

Well, there are plenty of people who would disagree with you.

I would say that foresaking alcoholic beverages would be a sacrifice.

My wife would say that foresaking coffee would be a sacrifice.

I'm sure that someone would say that forsaking tobacco would be a sacrifice.

Perhaps someone would say that eating fish on friday for lent would be a sacrifice.

A Muslim might say that foresaking/divorcing two of his wives (three permitted under Islam) to have only one wife would be a sacrifice.

[Palerider]

It seems that LDS members feeling burdened, and the LDS (mis)understanding of Grace, are completely unrelated issues.

Furthermore, I don't think adopting a more Evangelical understanding of Grace by itself would mitigate the problem.

Of course a massive theological shift away from works and towards grace might indeed take the focus off obedience, but that is entirely unrealistic.

The simple solution is to just ask less of members, and make them feel like its okay to say "Sorry I don't have time."

No doctrinal modification is needed, merely an adjustment to the institutional culture of the church.

Then you don't see a distinction between a "works based" faith that creates, developes and requires (some here would say "requests") programmed participation in callings, assignments, ordinance work etc., and a more faith and grace based religion that allows the works initiated by the Spirit in the member to be the testimony of their faith?

[Zakuska]

I disagree. And personally I don't see the forsaking of sin as a sacrifice of any sort.

What exactly does Paul mean?

Romans 12:1

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

The whole chapter is about serving each other in the Body of Christ under various capacities.

[ELF1024]

Then you don't see a distinction between a "works based" faith that creates, developes and requires (some here would say "requests") programmed participation in callings, assignments, ordinance work etc., and a more faith and grace based religion that allows the works initiated by the Spirit in the member to be the testimony of their faith?

Are you actually trying to say that some other Church, like a Baptist Church for example, doesn't put a tremendous amount of pressure on it's members to fulfill their own important callings? Are you actually telling me that you don't think a pastor can put the guilt screws to his Church's membership in order to get things done? Show me a church that waits for people to volunteer based on the "milk of human kindness" alone, and I'll show you a church with no ushers, no choir director, no band, and no leadership.

[SilverKnight]

Then you don't see a distinction between a "works based" faith that creates, developes and requires (some here would say "requests") programmed participation in callings, assignments, ordinance work etc., and a more faith and grace based religion that allows the works initiated by the Spirit in the member to be the testimony of their faith?

Having a lay-ministry where the members perform all church functions is the reason for all the callings and assignments - not because we don't believe we are saved by grace.

The solution is a procedural one, not a doctrinal one.

[SilverKnight]

Show me a church that waits for people to volunteer based on the "milk of human kindness" alone, and I'll show you a church with no ushers, no choir director, no band, and no leadership.

Or a church that meets in the pastor's garage and sings hymns to a casette player.

[Palerider]

What exactly does Paul mean?

Romans 12:1

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

The whole chapter is about serving each other in the Body of Christ under various capacities.

Paul is contrasting the sacrifice offered by Israel under the Law of Moses with the offering we make to Christ of "clean hands and a pure heart". That is the offering, not the "sacrifice" of giving up our sins.

Sin is a heavy burden, something to be rid of, not to be viewed as the surrender of something prized. We offer the best part of ourselves.

Matt. 11: 28-30

^28"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

²⁹Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. ³⁰For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

[Zakuska]

Paul is contrasting the sacrifice offered by Israel under the Law of Moses with the offering we make to Christ of "clean hands and a pure heart". That is the offering, not the "sacrifice" of giving up our sins.

Sin is a heavy burden, something to be rid of, not to be viewed as the surrender of something prized. We offer the best part of ourselves.

Matt. 11: 28-30

^28"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

²⁹Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. ³⁰For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

And yet those spiritual sacrifices and "services" he links with us serving each other in the body of Christ.