Grace in Sacrament Meeting

[mercyngrace]

Here I think you come to a subject inextricably linked with God's grace.

If God wanted us to keep the commandments, why does He give commandments He knows we can't keep?

If God chose, He could give us commandments we could keep.

So why doesn't He . . .?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Yep. It is inextricably linked.

Because falling is a necessary part of the process.

Romans 5:20

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

The real question, Consiglieri, is not "Why sin?" but "Why grace?"

[Vex]

Into the fray I wander...

Your analogies are not particularly convincing or applicable.

Neither are yours and I shall show you why:

I cannot walk into a store and just take a gift card without paying for it because it is a "gift card."

Actually you can. You are free to take whatever you wish, you are free to walk out of the store with whatever you wish. You are not free however to decide to receive the gift of the consequences that follow. Furthermore your analogy of the gift card is laughable at best. A gift card is a contract pure and simple. You can purchase a contract that enables anyone having access to that contract to redeem anything they wish of specific value from that store. You are free to give that gift to another (whether known or unknown), you are also free to keep that contract for yourself. If you choose to give it to another, the other individual is free to accept it or not. You in no way have offered up your definition of grace as the individual still must act upon it.

Lets run with your analogy though: You slyly place the card into a strangers pocket at random. You yourself have not chosen them based on circumstance, relation, or any other metric. They are unaware of your gift to them. Have they received grace without action? I dare say no. They have not. For to receive their gift they must exercise their own ability to go to the store from which you purchased the card. They must choose for themselves what they want, and must go to the checkout line. Surely your own analogy falls drastically short of your definition of grace. Let's continue with your post though:

I have to buy it. Whether I then us that gift card on myself or give it to someone else, I still had to pay for it. If I give it to you without getting anything in return, it is a gift.

Not necessarily as you have seen above.

If you have to do something before I give it to you, then by definition it is not a gift.

So in order for you to give some one a gift a relationship must be manifest between the two of you; unless of course you use the example above that I have given, in which case you no more gave them a gift than the definition of Grace which has been repeated on the board. Whether the price is paid up front to you or later to someone else, a price is still paid and your lax definition of gift falls apart.

The car thing is not comparable to what the Church teaches, either. To be analogous to the Church, the kid would have to pay Dad for the car, and after the money was in Dad's hand, the car would be a "gift."

I'm going to have to CFR for this specific teaching. If you're referencing what I think you're referencing you are way off the mark. For instance; A child attends school full time and is unable to work for any number of reasons. To help the child the parent offers a vehicle for them to use as they will. They have the car, they are free to drive it, but they still must have a license for it. Is the child going to say "this is not a gift because I must be licensed to drive it?" Perish the thought. Even if the child said that; the car is theirs and is a gift to them. They therefore chose not to use that gift, but alas you have deemed that to be an incorrect definition of the term gift and non-corollary to the discussion concerning grace.

Except the car would never be paid off; the kid would have to keep making payments for his entire life (tithing) and do whatever the person claiming to be the babysitter (ecclesiastical leaders) tell him Dad wants him to do---for life. And the kid would also have to participate in a bunch of rituals to drive the car, too (ordinances).

You mean like taking a drivers test to ensure he is able and willing to drive on the road correctly?! Oh no!

Your habit of talking about what the Church teaches without reference to what the Church actually teaches is carrying over into your argument about the meaning of words. This is what the word "gift" means:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gift

1. something given voluntarily without payment in return, as to show favor toward someone, honor an occasion, or make a gesture of assistance; present. 2. the act of giving. 3. something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned: Those extra points he got in the game were a total gift. 4. a special ability or capacity; natural endowment; talent: the gift of saying the right thing at the right time.

And? Your analogy fails to achieve those same definitions. I can freely give something to a stranger, but whether or not the stranger has worked for my attention, association, or anything else then would be considered earned under your programme, thereby nullifying the object that was gifted to him.

[consiglieri]

Why would this be a problem? Robinson's book is probably the all time bestseller for Deseretbook so I suspect the Church leaders are well aware of what the book teaches and that a huge number of LDS are fond of it and may even use it from time to time in their talks.

I would be interested in finding out why it was Robinson wrote the sequel, Following Christ, which undoes everything he said in his first book.

Was this entirely self-motivated on Robinson's part?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Zakuska]

I see where you are coming from now, SilverKnight, and I agree.

Every week in sacrament meeting since I pointed this out to my wife, she leans over to me each time the speaker says something more we need to do and says, "There's another one."

It is really surprising how much you see this happen when you start keeping track.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri (Italian for Flame of the West)

Paul seems to have been a list maker himself... and the speaker seems to only be following what he counciled...

Titus 3:14

And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Titus 3:8

This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

2 Cor 13

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

9 For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

10 Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction.

11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

[Jeff K.]

If God wanted us to keep the commandments, why does He give commandments He knows we can't keep?

I am interested to know which commandments we simply can't keep, versus which commandments we choose not to keep?

Repentance is a seperate criteria which allows us to reset where we are when we cannot keep the commandment.

[consiglieri]

Brother Robinson gives the reasons for his wife's burnout and it is much more than just church obligations:

"Janet had a particularly exciting year that year. Besides being Relief Society president, she graduated from college for the second time (in accounting), she passed the CPA exam and took a job with a local firm, and she gave birth to our fourth child." She describes what she is doing as "I can't do it anymore. I can't live it. My load is just too heavy. I can't do all the things I'm supposed to. I can't get up at 5:30, and bake bread, and sew clothes, and help the kids with their homework, and do my own homework, and make their lunches, and do the housework and do my Relief Society stuff, and have scripture study, and do my genealogy and write my congressman, and go to PTA meetings, and get our year's supply organized, and go to my stake meeting, and write the missionaries...."

Thank you for finding the quote, Cal.

Now, my question is this: Which thing(s) on Sister Robinson's list should she have dropped?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

Dr. Peterson, I look forward to your examples from church curricula and conference talks that show how I am mistaken about what the Church teaches.

The problem is you are absolutely not mistaken about what the Church teaches, DJ.

That is why nobody is coming up with any counter-examples.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Jeff K.]

Thank you for finding the quote, Cal.

Now, my question is this: Which thing(s) on Sister Robinson's list should she have dropped?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

That is like asking which colors she should not wear. It is a personal question which is neither correct nor incorrect and dependent on the context of the time when the decision is made, not necessarily the commandments.

[consiglieri]

And if done for the right reason, living works, right?

I believe it is not about doing things for the wrong reasons or for the right reasons.

Mankind is inherently evil.

At least that's what the Book of Mormon teaches.

Any work done by a person in an unregenerated state is an evil work, regardless of how nice it may be or for what "reason" it is done.

The only work that is "good" is done by God. (Check out Moroni 7)

Hence people are incapable of doing "good" works without God dwelling inside them and working through them.

At least that's what the Book of Mormon teaches.

The issue therefore becomes one of whether we are born again as God's sons and daughters, not what we do or for what reason.

At least that's what the Book of Mormon teaches.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Vex]

Thank you for finding the quote, Cal.

Now, my question is this: Which thing(s) on Sister Robinson's list should she have dropped?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I'm thinking the bread, clothes, homework, lunches, housework, congressman, pta meetings, genealogy, and organization of the years supply.

Why:

Bread is time consuming and can easily be substituted for store bought bread (and possibly cheaper as well).

Clothes can be worn with holes and even in tatters. I do it all the time. I do not need the nicest clothes every single day and so on. Why she decides you must sew as a difficult thing, I do not know.

Housework is not the sole responsibility of the mother/wife. If everyone is not helping then there is something else that need to be addressed (my mother never picked up after me, why should anyone else's).

Lunches can be delegated to the individual child or even just given lunch money.

Unless there is a specific need why would writing a congressman be listed within this list? I do not make it a habit to correspond to my congressman unless there's something that needs fixing.

PTA meetings; none of my parents ever attended nor am I aware that they were ever mandatory for any parent to attend.

genealogy is paper work. There is no time constraint to achieve some mark or lineage in a family tree.

Like housework why is the years supply only under a single individual? more to the point; wouldn't a year supply be a combined effort between husband and wife?

Which begs the question; why on earth are these things listed?

[mercyngrace]

Thank you for finding the quote, Cal.

Now, my question is this: Which thing(s) on Sister Robinson's list should she have dropped?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

All of them. And then she should have read Sister Chieko Okazaki's book Lighten Up!

(or for some more current counsel, Of Things That Matter Most)

[consiglieri]

. . . no where do the scriptures teach that God grants His saving grace to the evil as well as the good, to the just as well as the unjust.

There is always that pesky parable about the prodigal son.

And if the Book of Mormon is more to one's liking, there is the story about the conversion of Alma the Younger and the sons of Mosiah; the conversion story of King Lamoni; the conversion story of King Lamoni's daddy; and the conversion story of the Lamanites recorded in Helaman 5.

In sum, the Book of Mormon is replete with instances of God's grace being extended to the evil.

And in fact, most of these stories have another feature in common; the evil recipients of God's grace are rendered immobile at the time.

It is almost as if the author wants us to understand that there was nothing these evil people did, or could do, that justified the extension of God's grace to them.

I love the Book of Mormon . . .

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Jeff K.]

Vex:

Bread, can you say "bread machine"? Easy and quick and lots of fun.

Not sure why the woman believes all these things need to be done when most women do not do all these things, they do some of them and not others. It is a character flaw to believe that one must do it all versus "can" do it all, or rather have the ability not necessarily the compulsiveness.

My wife does make her own bread

My wife is also a CFO

My wife gets up with the rest of us (actually later than I and my son do because we go work out first)

My wife fixes meals an dhas the meals prepared by our children.

Heck when she graduated cum laude from BYU accounting, she sewed her own wedding dress.

She can do it all, but she also manages her time because she knows there is nothing that says she has to do it all.

[Jeff K.]

There is always that pesky parable about the prodigal son.

And if the Book of Mormon is more to one's liking, there is the story about the conversion of Alma the Younger and the sons of Mosiah; the conversion story of King Lamoni; the conversion story of King Lamoni's daddy; and the conversion story of the Lamanites recorded in Helaman 5.

In sum, the Book of Mormon is replete with instances of God's grace being extended to the evil.

And in fact, most of these stories have another feature in common; the evil recipients of God's grace are rendered immobile at the time.

It is almost as if the author wants us to understand that there was nothing these evil people did, or could do, that justified the extension of God's grace to them.

I love the Book of Mormon . . .

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

You overlook the son humbling himself and putting himself in the will of the father.

[consiglieri]

I changed the emphasis in the sacrament prayer.

I hope you don't mind . . .

The absolutely most important thing we do on Sunday is partake of the sacrament, where grace is taught, remembered, reflected upon, witnessed, rendered, and received in an astoundingly personal, spiritual manner:

O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

[consiglieri]

Balderdash.

And the typeface in your sig. still sucks.

Pardon me if I don't rush to change it.

[SilverKnight]

I see where you are coming from now, SilverKnight, and I agree.

Every week in sacrament meeting since I pointed this out to my wife, she leans over to me each time the speaker says something more we need to do and says, "There's another one."

I really don't mind the endless exhortations to be a better person: be charitable, do service, pray often, etc.

What is irritating is the compounding burdens that are placed on the active members of the ward, especially those in leadership type positions.

The 1st Assistant to the Bishop in my ward, a 17 year old priest, apostatized last year because (in my estimation) the church was absolutely sucking his life away with endless meetings, planning, activities, seminary, etc. The kid was a happy, jovial, free-spirited slacker who liked to play guitar and hang out his friends and band-mates. He finally got fed up with the grindstone the church had him in and quit - completely.

Teaching this kid about "Grace" more would not have done anything to save him - reducing the amount of mind-numbing beauracratic crap he was expected to do would have.

[consiglieri]

We teach Grace every Sunday in the Church.

You must go to Stephen Robinson's church.

I just can't figure out what church his wife keeps going to . . .

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[bluebell]

There is always that pesky parable about the prodigal son.

And if the Book of Mormon is more to one's liking, there is the story about the conversion of Alma the Younger and the sons of Mosiah; the conversion story of King Lamoni; the conversion story of King Lamoni's daddy; and the conversion story of the Lamanites recorded in Helaman 5.

In sum, the Book of Mormon is replete with instances of God's grace being extended to the evil.

And in fact, most of these stories have another feature in common; the evil recipients of God's grace are rendered immobile at the time.

It is almost as if the author wants us to understand that there was nothing these evil people did, or could do, that justified the extension of God's grace to them.

I love the Book of Mormon . . .

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I'll clarify to explain what I meant by 'evil'.

Where does it it say in the scriptures that God will grant his saving grace to those who have no faith in Christ and are unrepentant?

[consiglieri]

Because falling is a necessary part of the process.

And here we find once again that we are all, respectively, Adam and Eve.

Nice point, M&G.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

I am interested to know which commandments we simply can't keep, versus which commandments we choose not to keep?

We can theoretically keep all the commandments, just as the ancient Greek could theoretically carry a bull around on his shoulders because he had been doing so every day since the bull was a calf.

The problem is that we don't.

And none of us does.

If we could actually keep all the commandments, it is likely somebody would have done so by now.

One might think God had a reason for setting things up this way . . .

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

That is like asking which colors she should not wear. It is a personal question which is neither correct nor incorrect and dependent on the context of the time when the decision is made, not necessarily the commandments.

So you are saying there are times when it is acceptable to not keep the commandments?

[consiglieri]

Which begs the question; why on earth are these things listed?

Because more than anything else, the LDS Church excels in list making.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

Heck when she graduated cum laude from BYU accounting, she sewed her own wedding dress.

Your wife wore a wedding dress to her college graduation?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

For all the people whinning about the church and how we teach about grace and "burden" member with too many callings. I hear the EV church does not require you to do anything more than confess Jesus.