Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 For some reason I am reminded of these words...I do many things to break down superstition, and I will break it down. Sometimes things need a little shaking up.Hey, I agree. I think it important to note what consig is doing that some people seem to not see.Any way what I would like Consig to do is expound upon his "then there is that pesky prodigal son parable" thing.
mnn727 Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 This is what happens when you post on a thread without reading it through, I suppose.Think I'm going to read 8 pages of you complaining again about what you think the Church does or does not do? been there done that, no need to waste my time today.I read your opening post, I answered it, end of story.
consiglieri Posted January 19, 2011 Author Posted January 19, 2011 Is consig using reverse Phsycology on us all to bring out the truth on Grace and works? IOW, are we rats in a maze?Here's your cheese.(And no, I do not have you on ignore, old friend!)All the Best!--Consiglieri
consiglieri Posted January 19, 2011 Author Posted January 19, 2011 Think I'm going to read 8 pages of you complaining again about what you think the Church does or does not do? been there done that, no need to waste my time today.I read your opening post, I answered it, end of story.Apparently my threads, like the Book of Mormon, are among those things that do not have to be read before having an opinion about.Actually, the OP is favorable on what happened in my ward sacrament meeting last Sunday.Which OP were you reading?All the Best!--Consiglieri
Zakuska Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Here's your cheese.(And no, I do not have you on ignore, old friend!)All the Best!--ConsiglieriYou sly little devil...
consiglieri Posted January 19, 2011 Author Posted January 19, 2011 Hey, I agree. I think it important to note what consig is doing that some people seem to not see.Okay, give.Just what is consig doing that some people seem not to see?Enquiring minds and all that . . . All that Best!--Consiglieri
Palerider Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Here I think you come to a subject inextricably linked with God's grace.If God wanted us to keep the commandments, why does He give commandments He knows we can't keep?If God chose, He could give us commandments we could keep.So why doesn't He . . .?All the Best!--ConsiglieriGod gives the law to educate us as to what constitutes "sin". Why would we turn to Him for help if we had no idea we were doing wrong? When it becomes obvious that "no one" has kept (or continues to keep) the law perfectly (which is what justice requires), we then desperatley need a state of Grace (a buffer) to aid us as we seek to become justified and sanctified. What is not finished in this life is perfected through God's Grace in the next as long as our efforts and intentions are to please Him.
Palerider Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 You overlook the son humbling himself and putting himself in the will of the father.Still the son is not "deserving". And neither is anyone else, otherwise we make God our debtor.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Okay, give.Just what is consig doing that some people seem not to see?Enquiring minds and all that . . . All that Best!--ConsiglieriWell kicking poking with a stick the hornets nest.
Palerider Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 I really don't mind the endless exhortations to be a better person: be charitable, do service, pray often, etc.What is irritating is the compounding burdens that are placed on the active members of the ward, especially those in leadership type positions.The 1st Assistant to the Bishop in my ward, a 17 year old priest, apostatized last year because (in my estimation) the church was absolutely sucking his life away with endless meetings, planning, activities, seminary, etc. The kid was a happy, jovial, free-spirited slacker who liked to play guitar and hang out his friends and band-mates. He finally got fed up with the grindstone the church had him in and quit - completely.Teaching this kid about "Grace" more would not have done anything to save him - reducing the amount of mind-numbing beauracratic crap he was expected to do would have.Teaching the leadership about true Grace would have given them the freedom to "back off" the kid without feeling that they weren't doing their duty. Teaching the kid about true grace would have allowed him to say, "I'm not doing this because this isn't how people are saved".
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 . Teaching the kid about true grace would have allowed him to say, "I'm not doing this because this isn't how people are saved".That is not why there are church callings. We don't do them because we want to be saved.Straw man alert.
Palerider Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 I'll clarify to explain what I meant by 'evil'.Where does it it say in the scriptures that God will grant his saving grace to those who have no faith in Christ and are unrepentant?God will not grant "Grace for Grace" to those who are without faith. I think you make a mistake in trying to truncate one type of grace from another. All grace is given in an attempt to save.
Palerider Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 I think a lot of self-imposed piling on goes on. Pharisitical traditions develop because of the hardness of our hearts. We seek the safety of enumerated dos and don'ts when we should be aspiring to the freedom of two great commandments upon which hang all the law and the prophets.Culture grows out of the doctrine not the opposite.
Palerider Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Does it matter how much Mormons speak of grace when they speak of it incorrectly?Excellent point
Jeff K. Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Teaching the leadership about true Grace would have given them the freedom to "back off" the kid without feeling that they weren't doing their duty. Teaching the kid about true grace would have allowed him to say, "I'm not doing this because this isn't how people are saved".I agree, the church is not about a one size forced all look. It is about applying grace to those ready to receive it and also helping people grow, sometimes at their own pace, and sometimes helping them grow faster. That is where the spirit comes in.
mercyngrace Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Culture grow out of the doctrine not the opposite.Culture grows out of the misunderstanding of doctrine.
CV75 Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 We can't have the spirit without obeying Gods commandments and the sacrament prayer affirms that truth.Yes, but God's grace also underpins our keeping the commandments in the first place (it is by His grace that we obey), since He provides the option, secures our agency, and grants us the gift of faith to obey. My point is that the principle of grace is continually taught in everything the Lord has provided for us in the Church. Given the immense power of the sacrament, grace is evident and taught every time it is administered and received, and experienced by the faithful.
Palerider Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Culture grows out of the misunderstanding of doctrine.In that case (which I don't agree) the prophets could have solved this problem long ago through their teachings. Instead it grows to this day, or we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Palerider Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 I agree, the church is not about a one size forced all look. It is about applying grace to those ready to receive it and also helping people grow, sometimes at their own pace, and sometimes helping them grow faster. That is where the spirit comes in.I see "uniformity" mistaken for "unity" at the cost of true spirituality.
Jeff K. Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 I see "uniformity" mistaken for "unity" at the cost of true spirituality.Uniformity has its place (consider the temple for instance) but there are other places where it can be too constricting. However I do not believe uniformity comes at the cost of spirituality. Christ was perhaps the most uniform of people under the Mosaic law, and no one can deny His level of spirituality. So I cannot say there is a relationship between uniformity and spirituality, either conversely or inversely.
SilverKnight Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Teaching the leadership about true Grace would have given them the freedom to "back off" the kid without feeling that they weren't doing their duty.Yeah sure it would.Teaching some incomprehensible religious platitude would solve everything.How about the the leaders simply back off. Teaching the kid about true grace would have allowed him to say, "I'm not doing this because this isn't how people are saved".Teaching the kid about true grace would have just confused him.And I am fairly positive he cares more about playing guitar and video games than saving people.
flashmax67 Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Of course the church teaches grace, others may not interpret that way based on their own bias.In truth only God will judge in the end because he can see our true heart and intent.Grace is a free gift; because nobody is perfect in this world. Just because I do service or works, doesn
mercyngrace Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 In that case (which I don't agree) the prophets could have solved this problem long ago. Instead it grows to this day, or we wouldn't be having this conversation.How did God and His prophets solve this problem the first time 'round? (after Sinai)
consiglieri Posted January 19, 2011 Author Posted January 19, 2011 Christ was perhaps the most uniform of people under the Mosaic law, and no one can deny His level of spirituality. Here I have to respectfully disagree.According to the gatekeepers of the Mosaic Law, Christ was a lawbreaker and rabblerouser who had to be put down and made to shut up lest he bring down their entire house of cards.At least that's my read of the New Testament.(Any similarity to this thread is entirely coincidental.)All the Best!--Consiglieri
Palerider Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Of course the church teaches grace, others may not interpret that way based on their own bias.In truth only God will judge in the end because he can see our true heart and intent.Grace is a free gift; because nobody is perfect in this world. Just because I do service or works, doesn
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