A Non-Mormon's Question About Worship

[Jason]

Your poll creates a false dichotomy that cannot be resolved absent more choices, including "Maybe," depending upon how one goes about defining "worship."

In other words, this is a stupid poll.

(That's a bit of a running gag - I usually say this in any poll that doesnt' include an "other" option, and many that do)

[mathilde]

Great question. From a non-Mormon, right to the heart of what we believe and what we preach that we believe. Pretty much straight forward, clear words, yes or no. It is telling, how it seems to be more interesting to complicate and twist the question than to simply answer it.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

As a non-Mormon, I have a question about the following statement from Elder Bruce R. McConkie, which is taken from a speech that he delivered at BYU on March 2, 1982:

"We worship the Father and him only and no one else. We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense

[CA Steve]

By worshipping the Father as he commanded and n his name we worship him as well. Also it is the same...and when can we finally stop putting Elder McConkie down?

What part of his post "puts Elder McConkie down"?

[Hick Preacher]

This is a significant thread.

This is because, most popular critics of Mormonism claim that LDS people DO NOT worship Jesus Christ.

Yet Mormons here do.

And the highest leadership of the LDS Church says so too.

And as it is reads in the Book of Mormon-

2 Ne. 25: 29

29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

Next the most popular critics claim that is it a different Jesus that Mormons are worshiping.

This different Jesus notion complicates the issue.

I must confess that the Jesus Christ of Mormonism is Jesus of Nazareth, of who the prophets identified in prophecy by telling of His birth in a specific time, and place, which was followed by certain signs on Earth and Heaven. This pin-points this person of Mormonism , Jesus the Christ, historically.

IMO Mormonism does have some critical attributes to Christ's origin and role in the pre-existence and in yonder heavens described differently than orthodoxy however. Yet historically the Earthly Jesus of Nazareth can be identified as being the same individual that Traditional Christians also identified as The Christ.

I think that the 'cosmic' attributes of Christ are very important, but what is more important is the fundamental starting point is identifying Jesus of Nazareth, the historical figure. The Advent of Christ is an axis mundi, the great median of time. And in Mormon theological ideas Jesus is fully divine. (Yet this is not the same exact type of divinity as orthodoxy). And Mormonism teaches, that the Fully Divine Son of God came into the World, and dwelt among us.

So indeed I must confess, in Mormonism Jesus of Nazareth is a fully divine( in Mormon terms) personage, the very Son of God. It is significant that Mormons believe that in Mormon cosmology, and theology, that Jesus is fully divine.

And Mormons in recent years have done studies about ancient notions of God and Gods of the Middle East to better describe and define this kind of divinity as having a historical basis among the early Israelites. Now of course, what makes a divine being 'divine' according to 'orthodoxy' is different from many of the finer technical details of the Mormonism's descriptions of divinity. And this does make a difference in theory on some level, and does in theory impact human salvation, and in theory our response to God, and in theory how we live out our lives.

[SilverKnight]

This is a significant thread.

This is because, most popular critics of Mormonism claim that LDS people DO NOT worship Jesus Christ.

Yet Mormons here do.

And the highest leadership of the LDS Church says so too.

Hick-

This is quite refreshing to hear, Kudos.

I am perfectly fine with Mainstream Christians calling LDS Christians* (with an asterisk).

The plain truth is that mormons are without question Christians in their veneration of Christ as the Son of God and Savior of Mankind, but we are distinctly non-trinitarian, and yes, many of our teachings are extra-biblical.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

many of our teachings are extra-biblical.

I would not say that many of our teachings are extra biblical. But we do have a few of them that are. Oh well it is just a quibble of words I quess?

[SilverKnight]

I would not say that many of our teachings are extra biblical. But we do have a few of them that are. Oh well it is just a quibble of words I quess?

Extra-biblical = outside the bible

Call them what you will (Plain and Precious Truths), but frankly I find our "extra" teachings to be the best ones we've got.

It's rather the whole point of the Restoration.

[Hick Preacher]

Hick-

This is quite refreshing to hear, Kudos.

I am perfectly fine with Mainstream Christians calling LDS Christians* (with an asterisk).

The plain truth is that mormons are without question Christians in their veneration of Christ as the Son of God and Savior of Mankind, but we are distinctly non-trinitarian, and yes, many of our teachings are extra-biblical.

Thanks SilverKnight-- And for the Kudos'

on a cold rainy Coastal Oregon stormy day.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

What part of his post "puts Elder McConkie down"?

The part about how

[David T]

The part about how

[Ahab]

Worship is all about emulation, and yes I do follow Him as His disciple with the goal of becoming as He is, which is as our Father, in every way possible.

[Bsix]

Koloborator:

Greetings! Welcome to the board. You chose a meaty topic that is bound to generate divergent thoughts...even among the Latter Day Saints on this message board. I hope you enjoy your time here.

In the context of your clarified question:

In the context of this issue, I personally define worship as the unqualified acknowledgement that Jesus Christ is God (or, as a Mormon might say, "a God" or "a Member of the Godhead") and is therefore deserving of complete obedience and the utmost honor, trust, and love.

The answer is a resounding yes. I will admit that the question touches on complexities of both LDS doctrine AND the context of the specific talk upon which you based your question upon.

Elder McConkie was beloved, controversial, and very blunt-speaking in addresssing what he considered heresies.

The talk you cite is an example of the blunt, heresy-attacking style that he was known for.

Elder McKonkie's talk was a blunt rebuttle to a growing doctrinal controversy that was brewing at BYU (The LDS university) decades ago. There was a growing fad...practice...teaching that members of the Church should pray directly to Jesus Christ and not the Father. Also, that members of the Church should seek to have a direct, personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It is in this context that Elder McConkie gave this talk to debunk this heresy.

Here are the subheads to the talk you referenced to. I think these show the flow of Elder McConkie's teaching of Jesus Christ in our theology:

1. We worship the Father and him only and no one else.

2. We love and serve both the Father and the Son.

3. Christ himself loves, serves, and worships the Father.

4. The plan of salvation is the gospel of the Father.

5. Christ worked out his own salvation by worshiping the Father.

6. All men must worship the Father in the same way Christ did in order to gain salvation.

7. The Father sent the Son to work out the infinite and eternal atonement.

8. The Son came to do the will of the Father in all things.

9. God, through Christ, is reconciling men to himself.

10. Christ is the Mediator between God and man.

11. Christ is our Intercessor with the Father, our Advocate in the courts above.

13. God was in Christ manifesting himself to the world.

14. Christ is the Revealer of the Father,

15. Christ is the Way to the Father.

16. Christ proclaims the gospel of the Father.

17. Christ glorifies the Father and so must we.

In this talke Elder McConkie summarizes our reverence of Jesus Christ:

Conclusion

Now I sincerely hope that no one will imagine that I have in the slightest degree downgraded the Lord Jesus in the scheme of things. I have not done so. As far as I know there is not a man on earth who thinks more highly of him than I do. It just may be that I have preached more sermons, taught more doctrine, and written more words about the Lord Jesus Christ than any other man now living. I have ten large volumes in print, seven of which deal almost entirely with Christ, and the other three with him and his doctrines.

I do not suppose that what I have here said will be an end to controversy or to the spread of false views and doctrines. The devil is not dead, and he delights in controversy. But you have been warned, and you have heard the true doctrine taught. Those who need to study the matter further would do well to get and study a copy of what I have said when it is published by Brigham Young University.

Let us then end on the note of testimony and of prayer. I bear record of the divine sonship of him whom we have this day spoken. He is or should be our best Friend through whom we can be reconciled to God.

Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. I am reconciled to God through him. I have been baptised in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. I consider mysel to be one of his disciples and testify of his Gospel.

Six

[scooby]

A few questions:

1. Is there a type of worship that is reserved exclusively for God the Father? If so, how would one define that worship?

2. Do we worship Christ in a way that we do not worship the Holy Ghost? If so, how would one define that worship?

3. And do we worship the Holy Ghost in any sense?

[CA Steve]

The part about how

[Koloborator]

A few questions:

1. Is there a type of worship that is reserved exclusively for God the Father? If so, how would one define that worship?

2. Do we worship Christ in a way that we do not worship the Holy Ghost? If so, how would one define that worship?

3. And do we worship the Holy Ghost in any sense?

Interesting questions, Scooby. The idea that these different forms of worship might even be possible would never come up in types of Christianity that subscribe to the Nicene Creed (i.e., mostly Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and the largest Protestant denominations) because of the doctrine of the Trinity.

By the way, thanks to everyone for their comments and insights. It's a real education for me.

[semlogo]

Yes. McConkie was wrong (and not the first time)

[CV75]

A few questions:

1. Is there a type of worship that is reserved exclusively for God the Father? If so, how would one define that worship?

2. Do we worship Christ in a way that we do not worship the Holy Ghost? If so, how would one define that worship?

3. And do we worship the Holy Ghost in any sense?

I would say the form of worship differs according to their roles in the Godhead: God the Father as the father of our spirits and the originator of all things eternal; Christ as the Only Begotten, our Savior, our Exemplar and the father of our rebirth.

The Holy Ghost would not be worshiped because in his role of perfect, witnessing unity with the Father and the Son, he helps us live righteously and receive the blessings of the gospel, including proper worship. He hasn

[TAO]

I would say it matters what your definition is.

Respect, yes we respect them all.

We pray to the father. We ask forgiveness of Christ. And we seek answers to questions from the Holy Ghost. I say, worship we do!

[scooby]

I would say the form of worship differs according to their roles in the Godhead: God the Father as the father of our spirits and the originator of all things eternal; Christ as the Only Begotten, our Savior, our Exemplar and the father of our rebirth.

The Holy Ghost would not be worshiped because in his role of perfect, witnessing unity with the Father and the Son, he helps us live righteously and receive the blessings of the gospel, including proper worship. He hasn

[scooby]

We pray to the father. We ask forgiveness of Christ. And we seek answers to questions from the Holy Ghost. I say, worship we do!

I am a little confused by this because I have always prayed to the Father, asked forgiveness of the Father, and sought answers to questions from the Father. In any case, do you then define worship, as applied to Christ and the Holy Ghost, as asking forgiveness of and seeking answers from? Could we not then be said to worship a brother or a sister when we ask them for forgiveness, or a teacher when we seek from them an answer?

I'm just trying to define worship.

[TAO]

I am a little confused by this because I have always prayed to the Father, asked forgiveness of the Father, and sought answers to questions from the Father. In any case, do you then define worship, as applied to Christ and the Holy Ghost, as asking forgiveness of and seeking answers from? Could we not then be said to worship a brother or a sister when we ask them for forgiveness, or a teacher when we seek from them an answer?

I'm just trying to define worship.

From what I understand (I may be wrong though), when you pray for forgiveness, though you pray to the father in the name of Christ, he sort of relays it to Christ (his is the grace that saves you). Thus it is Christ which will justify us in front of the father (who will be the judge). Similarly, though you pray to the Father, it's the Holy Ghost who is giving you the answering feeling, if ya' know what I mean. But, I think it may be the Father who is doing the answering, not exactly sure, others will be able to tell you more.

I apply worship as being in utter respect and awe of them, gracious and thankful to the point of sacrifice. But yah, that's just my definition ;-). For my definition, they all fit. But I think, when we worship one, all of them take glory in it! Such unity is amazing, that it is!

Again, you might wanna double-check what I said though.

Oh yah, they are right though about the Holy Spirit not receiving the same sort of worship as Father and the Christ though, I think. But again, double check this.

[CV75]

I still don't understand how you would define worship. What does it mean to worship God the Father "as the father of our spirits"? What does it mean to worship Christ "as the only begotten"? Surely it must mean more than simply recognizing them as such or else we could worship the sky as blue and the grass as green. And if it means we honor and obey them then could we not be said to worship the Holy Ghost or even the prophet or our parents?

What does worship mean?

To worship is to render love, reverence, service, commitment, and devotion,

[Koloborator]

It's interesting to assign a separate and possibly lesser category to the Holy Ghost. This seems consistent with Joseph Smith's statements to the effect that the Holy Ghost is the only member of the Godhead who doesn't have a physical body, the only one who did not appear to him in the First Vision, and the only one who is in some sense "on probation." One of the groups that takes this to its most extreme position is the Church of Jesus Christ, aka the Bickertonites, aka the Pennsylvania Mormons, aka the tradition in which Alice Cooper grew up.

I'm not suggesting there's any significance to the Alice Cooper thing. Just one of my favorite Mormon factoids.

[Hamba Tuhan]

...the only one who is in some sense "on probation."

The Holy Ghost/Spirit isn't 'on probation' in any sense. He is God, one with the Father and the Son.