A Non-Mormon's Question About Worship

[Koloborator]

Many Fundamentalist Mormons and, from what I understand a few mainstream LDS, believe the Joseph Smith Jr. was actually the incarnation of the Holy Ghost. It is quite a fascinating subject to explore in your downtime, though you would have to read "apostate" material. I first discovered the subject at the former website for the True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Last Days (Jim Harmstrom)

I agree that it is a fascinating subject. I've run across some passing references to it before, but never anything substantial. One reference mentioned that the Church published an official notice shortly after Joseph Smith's death to deny that JS was the incarnation of the Holy Ghost. If anyone has a reference on it, I would appreciate it. Thanks.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Book of Acts:

1:24 - "And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen..."

4:24 -"And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them..."

4:29 -"And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word..."

7:59,60 - "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."

From these passages it appears that the followers of Jesus prayed directly to Jesus as Lord and creator.

And when Jesus told how how to pray what did he say?

Did he say Pray to me and say "Jesus hollowed by thy name they kingdom come"?

Or did he say something different? Jesus never once instructed us to pray to him. It was laways to pray to the Father.

Now I am not arguing that your prayers will not be heard or that they are unworthy or anything like that. Just that Jesus told us how to pray and the we do all things in his name.

[Hughes]

And when Jesus told how how to pray what did he say?

Did he say Pray to me and say "Jesus hollowed by thy name they kingdom come"?

Or did he say something different? Jesus never once instructed us to pray to him. It was laways to pray to the Father.

Now I am not arguing that your prayers will not be heard or that they are unworthy or anything like that. Just that Jesus told us how to pray and the we do all things in his name.

So, why is it then, the people who actually heard that instruction to which you are referring to, didn't do as you are interpreting what Jesus said? Did they violate his teachings?

[BCSpace]

So, why is it then, the people who actually heard that instruction to which you are referring to, didn't do as you are interpreting what Jesus said?

IMO because Jesus was the Jehovah they had been praying to for centuries as a people. It was ingrained. Also, he was there, a deity visible and tangible.

Did they violate his teachings?

Not in any significant way imo; because Jesus gave all glory to the Father and suceeding generations ostensibly would start to get it right.

You might not, but as for me and President Hinckley, we do

Was GBH referring to the sense I was, or just the dictionary sense?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So, why is it then, the people who actually heard that instruction to which you are referring to, didn't do as you are interpreting what Jesus said? Did they violate his teachings?

IT appears they did from a literal perspective. Did Jesus tell people to pray to him or the Father? Are you really going to try and argue otherwise?

[Hughes]

IT appears they did from a literal perspective. Did Jesus tell people to pray to him or the Father? Are you really going to try and argue otherwise?

Either Jesus said as you interpret him. That he instructed us to pray to the Father only. OR...

He didn't. He used it as an example of how to pray.

All the passages (such as the one's in Acts) that indicate that the first followers of Jesus prayed directly to Jesus support the interpretation that the "lords prayer" is simply an example of how to pray. Not the *only* or *proper way* to pray. But simply as an example.

For example. In order to support your side of the argument, you'd need a passage that prohibits praying to Jesus specifically. And I know of no passage that says that.

Yet another example. The thief on the cross next to Jesus. He asked Jesus directly, "remember me..." and Jesus didn't say, "stop talking to me. If you want to pray you must pray to the Father only!" Instead, Jesus responded and said, "today you will be with me in paradise."

[David T]

Was GBH referring to the sense I was, or just the dictionary sense?

Probably not your made up hyper specific sense of the word. I'll give you that.