A Non-Mormon's Question About Worship

[Koloborator]

Sorry if I misquoted Joseph Smith. I thought he said somewhere that the Holy Ghost was on probation. If he did say that, does anyone have a citation?

[CV75]

It's interesting to assign a separate and possibly lesser category to the Holy Ghost.

Separate role or category, but certainly not lesser; He is one with the Godhead. For example, we submit to the will of the Father, but follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost. We live worthy for the companionship of the Holy Ghost, but the Father through Christ enables us to realize our intended glory when we do that. The Holy Ghost will not inspire anyone to worship Him, as His role is to testify of the Father and the Son and to help us worship accordingly.

[Koloborator]

I thought there was something out there about the Holy Ghost being on probation: "The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has." (Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; Sabbath address, Nauvoo, 27 August 1843. Reported by Franklin D. Richards.) Link at http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/What_about_the_Holy_Ghost.html

[CV75]

"The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has."

The concluding paragraph begins with, "So ...while attaining a body is necessary for our exaltation, it doesn't necessarily follow that it be necessary to be considered divine or God." Which the Holy Ghost is. The Son was similarly in a state of "probation" during His mortality, until He performed in righteousness and completely fulfilled His mission, was resurrected, and entered again into the Father's presence. Yet He had also attained divinity or Godhood as a pre-mortal Spirit and into His mortal life. The reasons we worship Him and the Father, and how, differ, but both are worshiped, and the Holy Ghost is not (for reasons stated earlier, not because He is on "probation" or not a God).

[Koloborator]

Here's another question, which involves the part of the FAIR comments quoted immediately above by CV75. (I once asked this question of a missionary, and we found that neither of us had an answer for it.) If attaining a body is necessary for exaltation, but is not (or may not) be necessary for deification, then what is the difference between exaltation and deification? I always thought that deification is the highest form of exaltation in Mormon theology. Again, thanks for furthering my understanding.

[CA Steve]

Here's another question, which involves the part of the FAIR comments quoted immediately above by CV75. (I once asked this question of a missionary, and we found that neither of us had an answer for it.) If attaining a body is necessary for exaltation, but is not (or may not) be necessary for deification, then what is the difference between exaltation and deification? I always thought that deification is the highest form of exaltation in Mormon theology. Again, thanks for furthering my understanding.

Salvation requires a physical body.

Exaltation requires obedience.

[Koloborator]

Please let me rephrase my question a little, with apologies for being kind of wordy. First, Is exaltation possible without salvation? If not, then can't we conclude that exaltation requires a physical body? Second, is deification possible without exaltation? If not, then can't we conclude that deification also requires a physical body? Third, if deification requires a physical body, then how can this be reconciled with the quote from FAIR cited by CV75 to the effect that "while attaining a body is necessary for our exaltation, it doesn't necessarily follow that it be necessary to be considered divine or God." Ultimately, how did Jesus and the Holy Ghost achieve deification if Jesus did not receive a physical body prior to His incarnation, and if the Holy Ghost has still not received a physical body?

I don't mean to seem slow or to belabor anything. But as a non-Mormon, I don't know this and I'm trying to study it out (D&C 9).

[thesometimesaint]

I worship God the Father, through his son Jesus the Christ, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

[ELF1024]

Please let me rephrase my question a little, with apologies for being kind of wordy. First, Is exaltation possible without salvation?

Not in my understanding...

If not, then can't we conclude that exaltation requires a physical body?

Yes, I believe that would be a safe assumption/conclusion.

Second, is deification possible without exaltation? If not, then can't we conclude that deification also requires a physical body?

It is my opinion that defication is close, if not the same as exaltation, however I don't know if all who are exaulted will progress to become Diety. I would say that becoming diety, requires/is exhaltation, which has stricter requirements than salvation but if you are exalted then you have salvation.

Third, if deification requires a physical body, then how can this be reconciled with the quote from FAIR cited by CV75 to the effect that "while attaining a body is necessary for our exaltation, it doesn't necessarily follow that it be necessary to be considered divine or God." Ultimately, how did Jesus and the Holy Ghost achieve deification if Jesus did not receive a physical body prior to His incarnation, and if the Holy Ghost has still not received a physical body?

God doesn't appear to think the same linear way we do. While having a body is required, it doesn't appear that he had to have the body first. Christ, under the direction of the Father created the world. He didn't have a body at that time, however he does have a body now.

It is my understanding that the Holy Ghost will recieve a body. He will be the last person born on Earth. However I may be mistaken.

[Koloborator]

It is my understanding that the Holy Ghost will recieve a body. He will be the last person born on Earth. However I may be mistaken.

[ELF1024]

That's an interesting point about the Holy Ghost being incarnated in the last person born on Earth. Is that your personal view, or is it a popular view among Mormons, or is it doctrinal? Thanks for your observation.

I heard it in a Gospel Principle's class from another member. I am unable to locate a reference to it, so I am not positive it is doctrine.

I don't know if it is a popular view among LDS church members.

It makes sense to me, so I will say that (at least) it is a personal view.

[William James]

As a non-Mormon, I have a question about the following statement from Elder Bruce R. McConkie, which is taken from a speech that he delivered at BYU on March 2, 1982:

"We worship the Father and him only and no one else. We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense

[urroner]

Has Christ always been perfect or was he made perfect?

[Koloborator]

Has Christ always been perfect or was he made perfect?

We Catholics believe that He has always been perfect.

This question seems connected with another facet of Mormon doctrine that has always interested me: the idea of a progressing God. As I understand it, Brigham Young argued that God is not omniscient, but is always learning. On the other hand, Orson Pratt, Joseph Fielding Smith, and Bruce R. McConkie argued that God is omniscient, but that he is progressing by adding "kingdoms and dominions."

I don't mean to hijack the thread from urroner's question, which is a good one, but I am curious about what the folks on this board believe about whether God is omniscient. If people accept the Pratt-Smith-McConkie position, what does it mean to add "kingdoms and dominions"? Thanks!

[urroner]

We Catholics believe that He has always been perfect.

#

Luke 13: 32

32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Hebrews 5:8-9

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

It seems that Christ himself said that he was to be perfected and then Paul or whoever wrote Hebrews said that Jesus had to learn obedience and that he was made perfect.

How can Christ become perfect if he had always been perfect?

If Christ has always been, how can he then be made perfect?

[DH]

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!

[urroner]

This question seems connected with another facet of Mormon doctrine that has always interested me: the idea of a progressing God. As I understand it, Brigham Young argued that God is not omniscient, but is always learning. On the other hand, Orson Pratt, Joseph Fielding Smith, and Bruce R. McConkie argued that God is omniscient, but that he is progressing by adding "kingdoms and dominions."

I don't mean to hijack the thread from urroner's question, which is a good one, but I am curious about what the folks on this board believe about whether God is omniscient. If people accept the Pratt-Smith-McConkie position, what does it mean to add "kingdoms and dominions"? Thanks!

When you say that God the Father is omniscient, do you mean that He knows the status/position of every subatomic particle throughout the complete universe/multiverse/multiverses throughout all time?

In the OT, I find a funny way of wording things in 1 Sam. 15:29, 35. In v. 29, it says "And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent," but in 35, it says "And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel."

The "repent" in v 29 means "change ones mind." If one is omniscient, one shouldn't have to change ones mind, ever. I can agree to that, but wait...

Jeremiah 26:3 (NLT) - Perhaps they will listen and turn from their evil ways. Then I will change my mind about the disaster I am ready to pour out on them because of their sins.

Apparently God had one plan and then told Jeremiah to tell the Israelites that if they would get their act together that He wouldn't bring a terrible disaster upon them, that He would change His mind on what to do with them.

[Koloborator]

#

Luke 13: 32

32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Hebrews 5:8-9

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

It seems that Christ himself said that he was to be perfected and then Paul or whoever wrote Hebrews said that Jesus had to learn obedience and that he was made perfect.

How can Christ become perfect if he had always been perfect?

If Christ has always been, how can he then be made perfect?

I haven't read the KJV in a while, so your question threw me for a loop.

The KJV quote from Luke appears to disagree with some modern translations. For example, instead of "I shall be perfected," the end of Luke 13:32 has been translated "I accomplish my purpose" (New American Bible -- my fave), "I finish my work" (New Oxford Annotated Bible), and "I will reach my goal" (New International Version).

On the other hand, the Hebrews KJV quote is generally consistent with more modern translations. But it is generally interpreted not as implying any lack of Christ's perfection as God prior to His passion, but rather to the perfection or completion of His earthly ministry.

[Koloborator]

When you say that God the Father is omniscient, do you mean that He knows the status/position of every subatomic particle throughout the complete universe/multiverse/multiverses throughout all time?

In the OT, I find a funny way of wording things in 1 Sam. 15:29, 35. In v. 29, it says "And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent," but in 35, it says "And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel."

The "repent" in v 29 means "change ones mind." If one is omniscient, one shouldn't have to change ones mind, ever. I can agree to that, but wait...

Jeremiah 26:3 (NLT) - Perhaps they will listen and turn from their evil ways. Then I will change my mind about the disaster I am ready to pour out on them because of their sins.

Apparently God had one plan and then told Jeremiah to tell the Israelites that if they would get their act together that He wouldn't bring a terrible disaster upon them, that He would change His mind on what to do with them.

In response to your question about whether I believe that God knows the status and position of every subatomic particle (quantum physics notwithstanding), my answer is "Yep -- literally everything."

In response to your point about God's omniscience and His apparent changing of His mind, I like your reading of Jeremiah and, implicitly, 1 Samuel. But I would add that the Bible contains many apparent inconsistencies, especially in the Old Testament. I believe that, just as Jacob wrestled with God, we must wrestle with episodes in which God appears to contradict Himself or even to behave immorally.

[Obiwan]

Can't answer the poll, cause it's a strawman.

We worship the Father alone as McConkie stated, but we also to a lesser degree worship the Son, especially since he is the agent of the Father, the one we get to the Father by, thus we also worship the Son.

Further, Christ Himself while he was on the earth in the Bible made it abundantly clear that we are to worship the Father Alone.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I heard it in a Gospel Principle's class from another member. I am unable to locate a reference to it, so I am not positive it is doctrine.

I don't know if it is a popular view among LDS church members.

It makes sense to me, so I will say that (at least) it is a personal view.

Many Fundamentalist Mormons and, from what I understand a few mainstream LDS, believe the Joseph Smith Jr. was actually the incarnation of the Holy Ghost. It is quite a fascinating subject to explore in your downtime, though you would have to read "apostate" material. I first discovered the subject at the former website for the True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Last Days (Jim Harmstrom)

[Hughes]

Can't answer the poll, cause it's a strawman.

We worship the Father alone as McConkie stated, but we also to a lesser degree worship the Son, especially since he is the agent of the Father, the one we get to the Father by, thus we also worship the Son.

Further, Christ Himself while he was on the earth in the Bible made it abundantly clear that we are to worship the Father Alone.

Oh and where is this that Christ stated this?

[BCSpace]

Because it appears some here do not know what worship means

The problem, nack, is that the OP hasn't made clear what the OP thinks it means.

I define it as "pray to". When God the Father was not generally known, the Hebrews did worship Jesus(Jehovah) in that sense. But Jesus has shown that we are pray to the Father so, since the Father is generally known, we pray to the Father and ultimately that is how it always is. So no, we do not worship Jesus. In lesser senses we do worship Jesus as in the adoration of a deity, but not in the ultimate sense which really is the only sense that matters and is usually what is implied by asking the question imho.

[David T]

I define it as "pray to". When God the Father was not generally known, the Hebrews did worship Jesus(Jehovah) in that sense. But Jesus has shown that we are pray to the Father so, since the Father is generally known, we pray to the Father and ultimately that is how it always is. So no, we do not worship Jesus. In lesser senses we do worship Jesus as in the adoration of a deity, but not in the ultimate sense which really is the only sense that matters and is usually what is implied by asking the question imho.

You might not, but as for me and President Hinckley, we do

[Hughes]

Book of Acts:

1:24 - "And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen..."

4:24 -"And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them..."

4:29 -"And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word..."

7:59,60 - "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."

From these passages it appears that the followers of Jesus prayed directly to Jesus as Lord and creator.