A Savage Libel

[Avatar4321]

I just find it despicable when the critics/enemies of the Church use the death of others to promote their agendas.

As do I brother.

[Avatar4321]

I want to know why all the energy is focused on the LDS church when there are groups like that Baptist church that marches and yells at funerals of soldiers. Now that is despicable behavior.

Because that group has marginalized themselves. We actually have power.

[Scott Lloyd]

The folks who lay on the sidewalk around Temple Square last night, to a man, claimed LDS are responsible for suicides by self-identifying sufferers of SSDS.

This is a vicious lie. No person or organized body of persons has caused any death, self-inflicted or otherwise, by anybody. There is no legal causation. There is no moral causation. There is not even any legal or moral contributory involvement.

It's time the LDS stood up to this savage bullying by the "Ten-Percent" crowd.

Knock off the lies. Knock off the bigotry.

I saw this in a blog post on a gay-agenda website describing the protest:

Participants lied flat on their backs, forming a circle around the grounds.

My first inclination was to correct the grammar in the above sentence (Participants lay (not "lied") flat on their backs). But given the content of their message, I realized it was probably more accurate as written than the writer ever intended.

Edit: Link removed after I noticed pornography on the linked-to website.

[cjwright]

I just wanted to make a comment on suicide which might help the discussion, especially with those who, from reading their comments, have no idea about why someone takes their own life.

As some on this board know, I have been a Samaritan (Samaritans.org) for over three years, and I have spoken to many people who are depressed, in dispair, and are suicidal. There is no fixed type of person who has feelings of suicide. I have spoken to people from ALL walks of life, All sexes and sexualities, and All ages from children to the elderly. Each one of their reasons for feeling that they should end their life is different from another, like snowflakes they are never the same, even if the circumstances are similar. These feelings can come on slowly over time, some come in the blink of an eye (especially when there has been a bereavement), and almost all come from a place of not seeing that there is any other answer to the thing which is causing them to feel this way. For some it isn't that they want to be dead, they just do not want to be in the situation they are in at that moment anymore. Some take action that threatens their life and then realise that this isn't the way they want to die, or that the problem IS fixable, but it is too late. Some are even happy that they are going to die and the pain they are in is going to stop.

I have been there for someone who has taken action that will end their life and they just want someone to be with them, even if it is just on the phone, as they die. I have also been there for someone who has taken action that will end their life, but has realised that this is not the way the want to die and wants help. (I have been the person there for both those things on numerous occcasions over the past 3 years, and I suspect I'll have to do it numerous times to come). I have also been there for someone who is just feeling a little low and needs someone to talk to about something they are going through, and are not at all suicidal.

To dismiss suicidal feelings because "no mentally healthy person will commit suicide" just goes to show how little people realise that these feelings can come to ANY one at ANY time. Mental health, like physical health, is not constant. You may have these feelings hit you in an instant or you may have these feelings build up inside for years before they come to the surface. No one is immune to feelings of depression, dispair or suicide.

The best way to prevent suicide, (though there is no fool-proof way to stop it completely as people still have their own choice to end their life), is to give people a place where they can talk about their feelings in a confidental way free from judgement, which is where organisations like Samaritans and Befrienders Worldwide come in. If anyone on this board or anyone you know has feelings of depression, dispair or suicide please contact, or let them know about, either the Samaritans or Befrienders Worldwide:

Samaritans.org

Befrienders.org

(It may be beneficial if LDS Family Services, I think it's called - we don't have it here in the UK so not 100% sure - had a similar service for people to call if they are having these types of feelings, but I don't know how that could or would be implemented.)

[Monster]

Being Gay and a believing Mormon is a tough thing. I would not wish it on anyone.

[mercyngrace]

To dismiss suicidal feelings because "no mentally healthy person will commit suicide" just goes to show how little people realise that these feelings can come to ANY one at ANY time. Mental health, like physical health, is not constant. You may have these feelings hit you in an instant or you may have these feelings build up inside for years before they come to the surface. No one is immune to feelings of depression, dispair or suicide.

cj,

You are misinterpreting the comment. It is not dismissive. The statement nowhere presumes that mental health issues are limited to a certain group of people or that suicidal thoughts have a period of gestation before an act of suicide. You added all that interpretation. The statement is simply indicates that one who commits suicide is not mentally healthy while he considers and carries out that act.

[cjwright]

cj,

You are misinterpreting the comment. It is not dismissive. The statement nowhere presumes that mental health issues are limited to a certain group of people or that suicidal thoughts have a period of gestation before an act of suicide. You added all that interpretation. The statement is simply indicates that one who commits suicide is not mentally healthy while he considers and carries out that act.

Firstly I wasn't making a specific comment on what you said, but giving a general comment on the subject as a whole, as I have heard a number of people dismiss those who have suicidal feelings as "just mentally ill" instead of addressing the root of the problem. Also I was talking about dismissing suicidal feelings, you were talking about those who actually commit suicide. Not everyone who has suicidal feelings commits or even attempts to commit suicide.

But if you want to go down that road, I'll comment on what you said in post #28, because your comment about mental heath didn't just stand on its own, which is why you think I misinterpreted it. If it did stand on its own then your comment would be correct, as I actually said in my post that mental health like physical health is not constant. If someone is feeling depressed or in dispair or suicidal, that is a mental health issue. What you did was link mental health with mental illness, which are two different things.

After saying "Mentally healthy people don't commit suicide."

You made this comment:

So if the percentage of suicides by people with SSA is higher than the percentage of DSA people, then perhaps there is a connection between SSA and mental illness*. Mental illness is an internal condition. External influences can exacerbate a mental problem but they don't create it.

This comment demonstrates that you know little about suicide or the reasons people have suicidal feelings. YOU suggested that there is a link between SSA and mental illness, and if you understood the nature of suicidal thoughts and feelings then you would not then link this to cases of suicide. Having SSA doesn't make someone mentally ill, or makes someone more prone to suicide. No one can say that one group of people is more prone to suicide than another, ANYONE can have suicidal thoughts and feelings for ANY reason at ANY time. On the flip side, those who blame the Church for the rates of suicide in those with SSA are also mistaken, as the evidence doesn't back up their claims. Those with SSA are not anymore likely to have suicidal thoughts and feelings than anyone else when you look at the suicide statistics as a whole.

You then made this comment:

Mentally ill people don't need external motivation to take their own lives. The people around them who mourn are usually the ones who look for scapegoats so as to avoid acknowledging the reality of the mental illness.

There are tons of people who suffer real and imagined persecution every day but don't take their lives.

Just because someone does not take their own life doesn't mean that they don't have feelings of suicide. In my experience almost all people who have suicidal feelings have external things which bring them to that point, whether it is something that has happened to them in the past that they cannot put behind them, or something that is happening to them now which they feel they cannot control. The two main factors for people not to end their life are religious beliefs and how it will effect their family. Though they have not ended their life, they still need help and support to get through the feelings they are experiencing, dismissing the problem just because they haven't ended their life doesn't help anyone.

And then your final comment:

This phenomena needs to be treated for what it really is and people who are suicidal need to get help from mental health professionals rather than cloaking their despair and self-loathing by blaming others.

I'd like to know what you think this phenomena really is. Not all people who have suicidal thoughts and feelings blame others, in fact they blame themselves most of the time. It is the fact that those people who are suicidal don't have anyone to turn to for help is the problem, and passing them on to "mental health professionals" is not the best way to treat the problem. Love and support from those close to them is a better way to treat the problem. Having a confidential and non-judgemental place to talk about how they are feeling and what they are going through is also a better way to treat the problem. It is correct that some people may need professional help with what they are going through, but in fact that is really only a small percentage of people who have suicidal feelings, which I have already said, can come to ANY one at ANY time for ANY reason.

[thesometimesaint]

To me there are only four options, and suicide isn't one of them.

1. If you don't like what the Church does then find a way to like it(It COULD be that you just don't have all the information you need to make a valid decision).

2. Still don't like it "Suck it up".

3. Find a church you do like. There are literally tens of thousands out there.

4. Form your own church. It is still a free country, believe anything you want.

[mercyngrace]

cj,

Some points to consider:

1. The first comment you take exception to came with an asterisk which when followed led to a reference to a study posted here earlier this week. Did you read the comment? It was a direct response to an argument someone else made about brain chemistry as it relates to people with SSA.

2. I did not say external factors were irrelevant. I simply said they weren't necessary.

3. Here, you're absolutely right. I should have worded that better. The "cloaking despair and self-loathing" bit was meant to be a reference to those people who use a suicide for their own political gain or in an effort not to address the real issues which are individual not necessarily institutional.

MnG

PS I know this issue is a big part of your life and I appreciate the work you do. I feel great compassion for those are in the position of feeling that death is their only way out of troubling circumstances, as well as much emmpathy for those left behind to mourn the loss. I do not believe however, that a mentally healthy person is the one who pulls the trigger. For the most part I agree with what you are saying and believe that you are reading your own interpretation into what I wrote.

[cjwright]

cj,

Some points to consider:

1. The first comment you take exception to came with an asterisk which when followed led to a reference to a study posted here earlier this week. Did you read the comment? It was a direct response to an argument someone else made about brain chemistry as it relates to people with SSA.

From what you put at the bottom of your post under the *, it didn't appear that the two points (deminished fight/flight response and SSA suicide rate and mental illness) really have much in common, because whoever said that those with SSA have a higher suicide rate is either being extremely biased with the figures or just making the claim for effect. In the real world there is no connection between SSA and mental illness, though those with SSA and a mental illness maybe more prone to suicidal feelings, but that is not what the crowd who is blaming the Church is saying.

2. I did not say external factors were irrelevant. I simply said they weren't necessary.

In my experience external factors are necessary, thought whether these external factors are real or only perceived to be real is the point. Some may see persecution where there is none, which is why those with suicidal feelings need a place to talk and explore those feelings and internal and external factors in order to come to a decision about the course of their life. On more than one occasion I have spoken to someone who believes that a point which is bothering them is so big that they can't see a way out, though once they have talked their problem through they can see that it wasn't as big as they thought it was, and is actually easy to manage.

To bring it back to the topic of the thread, some may see persecution by the Church towards those with SSA, but the truth, once explored, is actually the opposite.

3. Here, you're absolutely right. I should have worded that better. The "cloaking despair and self-loathing" bit was meant to be a reference to those people who use a suicide for their own political gain or in an effort not to address the real issues which are individual not necessarily institutional.

Usually those people who are suicidal don't really have any expectations of political gain, but I can see that there are those who will use those who are gay and suicidal just to further their cause of persecuting the Church.

PS I know this issue is a big part of your life and I appreciate the work you do. I feel great compassion for those are in the position of feeling that death is their only way out of troubling circumstances, as well as much emmpathy for those left behind to mourn the loss. I do not believe however, that a mentally healthy person is the one who pulls the trigger. For the most part I agree with what you are saying and believe that you are reading your own interpretation into what I wrote.

A mentally healthy person "won't pull the trigger", but any of us can go from one extreme to the other in the blink of an eye in certain circumstances, and in more cases than you might think, when someone has taken action that threatens their life they realise that suicide is not the way they want to go, but sometimes it is too late.

[mercyngrace]

A mentally healthy person "won't pull the trigger", but any of us can go from one extreme to the other in the blink of an eye in certain circumstances, and in more cases than you might think, when someone has taken action that threatens their life they realise that suicide is not the way they want to go, but sometimes it is too late.

We are in agreement. I agree also that external triggers can lead to acute behavioral responses that are unhealthy. Where I see things differently is that I believe the pattern of thinking/processing the external cues is the key to maintaining balance. This is why two people can experience similar adversities and react in opposite ways.

By way of example:

Two people lose a child. One grieves and draws closer to the Lord. The second divorces her spouse and lives out an unending grief never quite accepting the loss. IMO, how we interpret the external triggers is what matters.

I hope that makes more sense - even if we end up agreeing to disagree on that point.

PS In reading and rereading how you understand what I wrote, I can see a lot of room for improvement on my communication skills - ugh! I didn't mean people use their own suicide for political gain - I meant others use the suicide for political gain, etc...

[USU78]

[W]hoever said that those with SSA have a higher suicide rate is either being extremely biased with the figures or just making the claim for effect. In the real world there is no connection between SSA and mental illness

Why is that? Because less than 1/3 of APA members in 1973 voted under duress that SSDS is not a malady?

In the real world, a political decision made under duress against the great weight of then scientific opinion is a travesty, not a change.

But that has little to nothing to do with the OP topic, cjw. Your posts are an indirect method of accomplishing the same thing that the lying liars around Temple Square hope to accomplish: affect a change in LDS doctrine through threats and intimidation. You attack claiming to use science, when science never had anything to do with "delisting" SSDS by the APA in 1973. You attack the credibility of the LDS position.

But you stand on a sandy foundation . . . indeed, a foundation based upon lies, threats, intimidation and worse.

[Calm]

Those with SSA are not anymore likely to have suicidal thoughts and feelings than anyone else when you look at the suicide statistics as a whole.

CFR please.

IIRC, the stats show the opposite, at least with those that practice SS behaviours have a higher suicide rate. I do not have the time to reference direct studies because I'm off to a family get together shortly, but the wiki (which I don't like to use for such things since it is self edited) does list a number of studies on the topic:

Sexual orientation and suicide

See also: Homosexuality and psychology The likelihood of suicide attempts are increased in both gay males and lesbians, as well as bisexuals of both sexes when compared to their heterosexual counterparts.^[19][20][21] The trend of having a higher incident rate among females is no exception with lesbians or bisexual females and when compared with homosexual males, lesbians are more likely to attempt than gay or bisexual males.^[22]

Studies vary with just how increased the risk is compared to heterosexuals with a low of 0.8-1.1 times more likely for females^[23] and 1.5-2.5 times more likely for males.^[24][25] The highs reach 4.6 more likely in females^[26] and 14.6 more likely in males.^[27]

Race and age play a factor in the increased risk. The highest ratios for males are attributed to caucasians when they are in their youthhood. By the age of 25, their risk is down to less than half of what it was however black gay males risk steadily increases to 8.6 times more likely. Through a lifetime the risks are 5.7 for white and 12.8 for black gay and bisexual males. Lesbian and bisexual females have opposite effects with less attempts in youthhood when compared to heterosexual females. Through a lifetime the likelihood to attempt nearly triple the youth 1.1 ratio for caucasion females, however for black females the rate is affected very little (less than 0.1 to 0.3 difference) with heterosexual black females having a slightly higher risk throughout most of the age-based study.^[27]

Gay and lesbian youth who attempt suicide are disproportionately subject to anti-gay attitudes, and have weaker skills for coping with discrimination, isolation, and loneliness,^[27][28] and were more likely to experience family rejection^[29] than those who do not attempt suicide. Another study found that gay and bisexual youth who attempted suicide had more feminine gender roles,^[30] adopted an LGB identity at a young age and were more likely than peers to report sexual abuse, drug abuse, and arrests for misconduct.^[30]

One study found that same-sex sexual behavior, but not homosexual attraction or homosexual identity, was significantly predictive of suicide among Norwegian adolescents.^[31] In Denmark, the age-adjusted suicide mortality risk for men in registered domestic partnerships was nearly eight times greater than for men with positive histories of heterosexual marriage and nearly twice as high for men who had never married.^[32]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_suicide#Sexual_orientation_and_suicide

[cjwright]

Why is that? Because less than 1/3 of APA members in 1973 voted under duress that SSDS is not a malady?

In the real world, a political decision made under duress against the great weight of then scientific opinion is a travesty, not a change.

But that has little to nothing to do with the OP topic, cjw. Your posts are an indirect method of accomplishing the same thing that the lying liars around Temple Square hope to accomplish: affect a change in LDS doctrine through threats and intimidation. You attack claiming to use science, when science never had anything to do with "delisting" SSDS by the APA in 1973. You attack the credibility of the LDS position.

But you stand on a sandy foundation . . . indeed, a foundation based upon lies, threats, intimidation and worse.

Excuse me, I did nothing of the sort. My statements have nothing to do with changing LDS policy, a policy I actually happen to agree with. My statements come from actual real experience with people who have suicidal feelings, and actually highlight the fact that those who use the excuse of people with SSA committing suicide as a reason to attack the LDS Church are basing their attacks on false information.

Maybe if you've spent the last 3 years speaking to people who have feelings of depression, dispair and suicide you'd know that these feelings can happen to ANY one at ANY time for ANY reason, not just because someone has SSA. In fact I have no idea what you are talking about or accusing me of in your post. Since I live in the UK your political situation on the US has nothing to do with me, and if you read my first post you'll see that I only was speaking about suicide, something most of the people on this board know nothing or very little about. So get off your high horse and stop attacking someone who is actually defending the Church not attacking it.

[Calm]

Maybe if you've spent the last 3 years speaking to people who have feelings of depression, dispair and suicide you'd know that these feelings can happen to ANY one at ANY time for ANY reason, not just because someone has SSA.

Most certainly true, but there are groups that stats demonstrate that have a higher risk. One can never say someone is not at risk for suicide, but can't one say that someone belongs to a group that is at higher risk than the average individual?

[Damien the Leper]

I believe this is where Elder Bednar's talk "And Nothing Shall Offend Them" becomes necessary to remember. Why "give" a religious institution such control over your emotions that when they say something a person finds offensive/hurtful they take extreme measures? Simply disconnect in such a way that the 'offenses' don't cause impact. This would be far more beneficial to the listener. I can agree to disagree with things the General Authorities without thought of guilt. My progression isn't determined by whether or not I agree with them. It is determined by my faith and willingness to serve Heavenly Father.

[cjwright]

CFR please.

I work for Samaritans, we actually keep records of the calls we get every single minute of every single day. There is no real set group who experience more suicidal thoughts and feelings than another when taken as a whole, it can happen to anyone. The statistics you provided only seem to record that those with SSA that have committed or attempted to commit suicide at a higher rate, which also seems to be the only statistics that are recorded - those who actually go through with those feelings, but I didn't say those who commit suicide or attempt to commit suicide, I said that they are no more or less likely than anyone to have suicidal THOUGHTS and FEELINGS. There is a difference, and Samaritans own in house statistics actually show this.

[mercyngrace]

... I only was speaking about suicide, something most of the people on this board know nothing or very little about. So get off your high horse and stop attacking someone who is actually defending the Church not attacking it.

In fairness, cj, you are making some pretty wide sweeping presumptions yourself. You don't know what people know and if you go back and look at your final response to me, you'll see that you have agreed with nearly every point I brought up in the post to which you first objected.

You agreed that while external triggers may cause acute suicidal thoughts and behavior, you are able to help a person regain hope by reframing the external reality. So in fact, perception of the reality is what matters - that's internal.

You agree that mentally healthy people aren't pulling the trigger. Which was the initial point to which you objected.

In fact, the only point which you still contend is about the link between mental health and homosexual behaviors. Calmoriah has graciously provided statistics on that count.

Obviously suicide prevention is a very personal issue for you. You are nobly dedicating time and energy to help people through moments of crisis and that is laudable beyond expression. But maybe, you got a little offended because your intense compassion and concern and you took some things in a way in which they were not intended. It happens to all of us - we all have our hot button issues.

[cjwright]

Most certainly true, but there are groups that stats demonstrate that have a higher risk. One can never say someone is not at risk for suicide, but can't one say that someone belongs to a group that is at higher risk than the average individual?

Someone who belongs to this group seems to be at a higher risk of actually attempting or commiting suicide, as those who actually have thoughts and feelings of suicide (which is the only point I made - thoughts and feelings) are not recorded by those assembling the statistics, but by organisations like Samaritans. And according to the UK statistics since Samaritans was started in the 1960's suicide rates have declined by about 60%. There are occasional blips some years, but it is about average.

What the statistics don't show is the reason why people with SSA have attempted to end their life, I doubt that persecution by others was the dominate factor in most of those cases, when other reasons such as bereavement and relationship break down are more common reasons for someone to have suicidal thoughts and feelings.

[cjwright]

In fairness, cj, you are making some pretty wide sweeping presumptions yourself. You don't know what people know and if you go back and look at your final response to me, you'll see that you have agreed with nearly every point I brought up in the post to which you first objected.

You agreed that while external triggers may cause acute suicidal thoughts and behavior, you are able to help a person regain hope by reframing the external reality. So in fact, perception of the reality is what matters - that's internal.

You agree that mentally healthy people aren't pulling the trigger. Which was the initial point to which you objected.

In fact, the only point which you still contend is about the link between mental health and homosexual behaviors. Calmoriah has graciously provided statistics on that count.

Obviously suicide prevention is a very personal issue for you. You are nobly dedicating time and energy to help people through moments of crisis and that is laudable beyond expression. But maybe, you got a little offended because your intense compassion and concern and you took some things in a way in which they were not intended. It happens to all of us - we all have our hot button issues.

My problem was your use of the term mental health and then talking about mental illness, as if you thought they were one and the same, which they are not. i.e. feeling grief because the loss of a loved one is a concern of your mental health, but is not a mental illness such as cronic depression.

Just as LDS and EV's can get confused with each sides meaning of the words, I think you and I got confused with what each phrase means to each other.

Also I was talking about suicidal thoughts and feelings, which are not limited to certain members of society but can effect everyone no matter if they are gay or straight, black or white, rich or poor, male or female. And the statistics provided seem to only show those who have attempted to commit or have commited suicide, not those who have suicidal thought or feelings, because just because someone has these thoughts and feelings doesn't mean they are going to act on them, or act on them straight away. It may take years or decades to go from having those inital feelings to attempting suicide, and many don't act on those feelings because of religious beliefs and/or the effect it will have on family left behind. And just because they don't act upon them doesn't mean that they don't need help getting through the problems in their life. According to statistics the biggest killer of people is stress, who's to say that those feelings and thoughts of suicide are not a factor to peoples stress levels (and in my experience they don't help someones stress levels at all).

[mercyngrace]

My problem was your use of the term mental health and then talking about mental illness, as if you thought they were one and the same, which they are not. i.e. feeling grief because the loss of a loved one is a concern of your mental health, but is not a mental illness such as cronic depression.

Just as LDS and EV's can get confused with each sides meaning of the words, I think you and I got confused with what each phrase means to each other.

It happens. When I first stopped lurking I made a post and used the term "tolerance". You would've thought I'd dropped a nuclear bomb on church headquarters the way some people reacted. Haha! I didn't know other people read that word as though it were defined "permissive acceptance of all things unholy" ROTFL!

Also I was talking about suicidal thoughts and feelings, which are not limited to certain members of society but can effect everyone no matter if they are gay or straight, black or white, rich or poor, male or female. And the statistics provided seem to only show those who have attempted to commit or have commited suicide, not those who have suicidal thought or feelings, because just because someone has these thoughts and feelings doesn't mean they are going to act on them, or act on them straight away. It may take years or decades to go from having those inital feelings to attempting suicide, and many don't act on those feelings because of religious beliefs and/or the effect it will have on family left behind. And just because they don't act upon them doesn't mean that they don't need help getting through the problems in their life. According to statistics the biggest killer of people is stress, who's to say that those feelings and thoughts of suicide are not a factor to peoples stress levels (and in my experience they don't help someones stress levels at all).

Agreed.

[Pahoran]

Are we responsible for everyone's suicides?

Naturally. Did you really have to ask?

During one of my short-lived sojourns on an EV hate forum (I forget which one) there was a thread spouting the old canard that "Utah has the highest suicide rate." I made a couple of posts showing that Utah in fact does not have the highest rate, and that the LDS influence actually appears to suppress Utah's rate. I pointed out that all the neighbouring states have higher suicide rates than Utah, to which one of the mouth-foamers shrieked that it was having Mormon neighbours that drove people to suicide.

So you see, we really are responsible for every suicide. Without exception.

Regards,

Pahoran

[USU78]

Excuse me, I did nothing of the sort. My statements have nothing to do with changing LDS policy, a policy I actually happen to agree with. My statements come from actual real experience with people who have suicidal feelings, and actually highlight the fact that those who use the excuse of people with SSA committing suicide as a reason to attack the LDS Church are basing their attacks on false information.

Maybe if you've spent the last 3 years speaking to people who have feelings of depression, dispair and suicide you'd know that these feelings can happen to ANY one at ANY time for ANY reason, not just because someone has SSA. In fact I have no idea what you are talking about or accusing me of in your post. Since I live in the UK your political situation on the US has nothing to do with me, and if you read my first post you'll see that I only was speaking about suicide, something most of the people on this board know nothing or very little about. So get off your high horse and stop attacking someone who is actually defending the Church not attacking it.

If that's accurate, then it's irrelevant, since you're hijacking this thread if that's what you want to talk about. Please take that there conversation elsewhere, as it's quite inapposite.

[cjwright]

If that's accurate, then it's irrelevant, since you're hijacking this thread if that's what you want to talk about. Please take that there conversation elsewhere, as it's quite inapposite.

The topic of this thread, one which you wrote, is "A Savage Libel: That LDS Are Responsible For Suicides"

What I was stating in my posts is that it is a "savage libel" to say that LDS are responsible for suicides by people who have SSA, because there is no actual link between SSA and suicides because anyone can have suicidal thoughts and feelings for any reason and at any time. Those that are attacking the Church are using biased statistics to make their case rather than actually looking at the situation of suicide and suicidal feelings as a whole, because if they did the best arguement they could come up with is that those who have SSA are more likely to attempt or commit suicide, but then this statistic doesn't bring into it the reason why they attempted or commited suicide, so they can't say that it is because of persecution from the Church. Doing a Google search for Suicide Statistics came up with the rate of suicides in groups such as male and female, ethnic groups, age ranges, etc, but none I could see divided the statistics by sexual orientation or gave reasons.

So if defending your position that it is libel to claim that LDS are responsible for suicides by actually giving some real information about suicide, especially seeing that almost every post mentions suicide, and I as someone who has had years of experience with people who have suicidal thoughts and feelings can give a little insight on the subject, is somehow hijacking the thread then fine. Seeing as you haven't made any defense that it is a savage libel, I think your comments are a bit rich, seeing as I have given you evidence that it is a savage libel.

This issue has really upset you, and you are swinging at anyone who gets in your range, even those who are trying to help you defend your position.

EDIT: I've just looked at the link calmoriah provided, and if you read it, it in fact encludes every single permintation of social group possible, and the rates go up and down all over the place. The only conclusion you can come to is that everyone can be vunerable to suicide and suicidal thoughts and feelings, which is what I said in the first place.

[Calm]

I work for Samaritans, we actually keep records of the calls we get every single minute of every single day. There is no real set group who experience more suicidal thoughts and feelings than another when taken as a whole, it can happen to anyone. The statistics you provided only seem to record that those with SSA that have committed or attempted to commit suicide at a higher rate, which also seems to be the only statistics that are recorded - those who actually go through with those feelings, but I didn't say those who commit suicide or attempt to commit suicide, I said that they are no more or less likely than anyone to have suicidal THOUGHTS and FEELINGS. There is a difference, and Samaritans own in house statistics actually show this.

Assuming your stats are correct which I have no reason not to (your group does good work imo), you cannot claim that all groups experience thoughts and feelings the same level, only that among those who call hot lines to talk----in particular your organization's hot line----are pretty evenly spread out. This may or may not directly correlate with those who actually experience suicidal thoughts. It is a problem assuming that those who experience thoughts are equally motivated to seek out help through hotline or therapy, thus numbers of both (those who want to talk or those who want help through therapy) are only pointers for further research.

Unless your organization has done a randomized study contacting people and then asking how many of them have had suicidal thoughts, etc. etc.