A Savage Libel

[Ceeboo]

They did a protest by doing a "daisy-chain" lie-in, with each person lying on his back with his head on the belly of the person behind him, going as far around Temple Square as they could, all to represent the suicides by kids who are both Mormon and who self-identified as homosexual. Seems it's all our fault somehow.

Hi again USU,

Thanks for painting the picture

This "daisy-chain" sounds like a rather bizarre way to protest (Just my opinion of course)

Peace,

Ceeboo

[CA Steve]

Hi again USU,

Thanks for painting the picture

This "daisy-chain" sounds like a rather bizarre way to protest (Just my opinion of course)

Peace,

Ceeboo

Temple Square Protest Ceeboo here is a link to a local news program showing the protest.

[mercyngrace]

I fear this is going to sound insensitive but here goes anyway.

Mentally healthy people don't commit suicide.

So if the percentage of suicides by people with SSA is higher than the percentage of DSA people, then perhaps there is a connection between SSA and mental illness*. Mental illness is an internal condition. External influences can exacerbate a mental problem but they don't create it.

If someone takes his/her own life, the individual alone is responsible for the pain and suffering caused to those left behind. As tragic as suicide is for the victim, it is a selfish act that leaves behind a wake of affected mourners. We don't hold the dead responsible for that last act of self-indulgence because they are likely making decisions with significant mental and spiritual impairment. Likewise, it is foolish to hold the church responsible. It makes no more sense than holding the ubiquitous check out aisle Cosmo-style magazines culpable for hundreds of teenaged girls killing themselves year after year for feeling ugly.

Mentally ill people don't need external motivation to take their own lives. The people around them who mourn are usually the ones who look for scapegoats so as to avoid acknowledging the reality of the mental illness.

There are tons of people who suffer real and imagined persecution every day but don't take their lives.

This phenomena needs to be treated for what it really is and people who are suicidal need to get help from mental health professionals rather than cloaking their despair and self-loathing by blaming others.

* Earlier this week Semlogo linked to a study showing gay men may have diminished fight/flight response (a feminine brain). I'll look for the post and put a link for those who missed it first time round.

[CA Steve]

I fear this is going to sound insensitive but here goes anyway.

Mentally healthy people don't commit suicide.

So if the percentage of suicides by people with SSA is higher than the percentage of DSA people, then perhaps there is a connection between SSA and mental illness. Mental illness is an internal condition. External influences can exacerbate a mental problem but they don't create it.

If someone takes his/her own life, the individual alone is responsible for the pain and suffering caused to those left behind. As tragic as suicide is for the victim, it is a selfish act that leaves behind a wake of affected mourners. We don't hold the dead responsible for that last act of self-indulgence because they are likely making decisions with significant mental and spiritual impairment. Likewise, it is foolish to hold the church responsible. It makes no more sense than holding the ubiquitous check out aisle Cosmo-style magazines culpable for hundreds of teenaged girls killing themselves year after year for feeling ugly.

Mentally ill people don't need external motivation to take their own lives. The people around them who mourn are usually the ones who look for scapegoats so as to avoid acknowledging the reality of the mental illness.

There are tons of people who suffer real and imagined persecution every day but don't take their lives.

This phenomena needs to be treated for what it really is and people who are suicidal need to get help from mental health professional rather than cloaking their despair and self-loathing by blaming others.

I do not accept your argument that "Mentally healthy people don't commit suicide". Do you know all the factors that cause a person to commit suicide? Does a person that commits suicide start out mentally unbalanced? This is a process that leads to a very bad ending.

Even if I accepted that a suicide is by definition done by a mentally unhealthy person, this issue affects many many more people that those that commit suicide.

We need to shift the focus from fault to resolution. Mental health professionals are not the only ones who can contribute to that. We all can.

[urroner]

Years ago, when I was going through a very difficult time, my first wife was leaving me and going back to Australia with our three children. One day, on the way to work, I was seriously considering suicide. I was going to drive my car into a pillar upholding an overpass and I was going to leave a note blaming my wife on my death.

Thankfully that day I got some help at work and that night I was on anti-depressants which helped a lot.

If I would have blamed my wife for my suicide, it would have hurt a lot of people, especially her and our sons, but it wouldn't have been the truth. I was in a lot of pain and I just wanted to make her feel the pain that I was in. I just wanted to punish her for not doing what I wanted her to do and I was willing to kill myself to make sure that she got what was coming to her. Stupid thinking, but depression does that.

I just find it despicable when the critics/enemies of the Church use the death of others to promote their agendas.

[mercyngrace]

Temple Square Protest Ceeboo here is a link to a local news program showing the protest.

From the article:

"Our message is very simple. It's hate speech equal LGBT suicides," said Eric Ethington, Pride in Utah blogger and organizer of the event. "You can not tell kids for their entire lives there is something wrong with them."

We don't say something is wrong with them. We say something is wrong with all of us and we all need salvation. Elder Packer's message was inclusive not exclusive. He said, just like the rest of us, you have weakness and can be made strong. Just like the rest of us, you have brokenness and can be healed. Just like the rest of us, you have infirmity and you can be made whole.

[Kevin Christensen]

From Rene Girard I See Satan Fall Like Lightning, pages 180-181.

The most powerful anti-Christian movement is the one that takes over and 'radicalizes' the concern for the victim in order to paganize it. The powers and principalities want to be 'revolutionary now, and they reproach Christianity for not defending victims with enough ardor. In Christian history, they see nothing but persections, acts of oppression, inquisitions.

This other totalitarianism presents itself as the liberator of humanity. In trying to usurp the place of Christ, the powers imitate him in the way a mimetic rival imitates his model in order to defeat him...

In the symbolic language of the New Testament, we would say that in our world, Satan, trying again to make a new start and gain new triumphs, borrows the language of victims....

The Antichrist boasts of bringing to human beings the peace and tolerance that Christianity has promised but has failed to deliver. Actually what the radicalization of contemporary victimology produces is a return to all sorts of pagan practices: abortion, euthanasia, sexual undifferentiation, Roman circus games galore but without real victims, etc.

Neo-paganism would like to turn the Ten Commandments and all of Judeo-Christian morality into some alleged intolerable violance, and indeed its primary objective is their complete abolition. Faithful observance of the moral law is perceived as complicity with the forces of persecution that are essentially religious....

Neo-paganism locates happiness in the unlimited satisfaction of desires, which means the suppression of all prohibitions.

Amazingly relevant to the situation, I think. I've quoted it when the occasion arises. Girard has also observed that historically speaking, widespread social concern for innocent victims derives from the rise of Christianity. As a consequence, in order to scapegoat some group, (preferrably, in this case, a relatively vulnerable "other") for some social ill, they must first be depicted as perpetrators. Once a group is labeled as perps, the old scapegoating process can carry on.

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[mercyngrace]

I do not accept your argument that "Mentally healthy people don't commit suicide". Do you know all the factors that cause a person to commit suicide? Does a person that commits suicide start out mentally unbalanced? This is a process that leads to a very bad ending.

Even if I accepted that a suicide is by definition done by a mentally unhealthy person, this issue affects many many more people that those that commit suicide.

We need to shift the focus from fault to resolution. Mental health professionals are not the only ones who can contribute to that. We all can.

Actions and consequences are inseparable. If you want to resolve a problem, you have to know what causes it or else you'll only be treating symptoms.

How does lying on the ground outside temple square shift to resolution?

[CA Steve]

From the article:

We don't say something is wrong with them. We say something is wrong with all of us and we all need salvation. Elder Packer's message was inclusive not exclusive. He said, just like the rest of us, you have weakness and can be made strong. Just like the rest of us, you have brokenness and can be healed. Just like the rest of us, you have infirmity and you can be made whole.

Mercy I love your posts. I think you exemplify much of what I am trying to say about this issue, however, I believe when you state that 'Mentally healthy people don't commit suicide" you are saying something is wrong with them. Am I misunderstanding what you said?

[RachelWright]

I was in a lot of pain and I just wanted to make her feel the pain that I was in. I just wanted to punish her for not doing what I wanted her to do and I was willing to kill myself to make sure that she got what was coming to her.

This is the essence of what drives suicides in those who aren't diagnosed with a mental disorder which takes away the ability to make rational choices due to brain chemistry (bipolar, schizophrenia, etc), in my opinion. I also have had this urge during my divorce. I pictured him getting the phone call and the pain he would feel.

What pulled me out of this thinking was the Gospel. Its why I'm alive. My understanding of the Plan of Salvation saved me. That and lots of therapy and meds. God doesn't expect us to survive on faith alone.

Homosexuals do deal with a lot of emotional stressors caused by the lack of acceptance of their lifestyle. The CORRECT choice is to get therapy for these stressors, not suicide. So do many other groups. Homosexuality doesn't excuse selfishness or irrational behavior. Does it suck? Yes. Does it mean they can't find happiness within themselves as all of us must do? No.

Rachel

[CA Steve]

Actions and consequences are inseparable. If you want to resolve a problem, you have to know what causes it or else you'll only be treating symptoms.

How does lying on the ground outside temple square shift to resolution?

My comments were not directed to protestors at the temple. You would have to ask them what they thought they were accomplishing. I would guess the fact we are discussing the protest at all would be part of their intent.

On Edit. Have to leave for a while Mercy. I will check back in later for your response.

[mercyngrace]

Mercy I love your posts. I think you exemplify much of what I am trying to say about this issue, however, I believe when you state that 'Mentally healthy people don't commit suicide" you are saying something is wrong with them. Am I misunderstanding what you said?

From stopasuicide.org:

Studies have shown that over 90% of people who die from suicide have one or more psychiatric disorders at the time of their death. Luckily, there are ways to treat and control these disorders and potentially prevent suicide.

Comorbidity (having more than one illness at the same time) and how severe the disorders are can increase someone's risk for suicide. Catching the warning signs early and seeing a doctor or other health care provider for a diagnosis and treatment plan could make it less likely that your friend would commit suicide.

As I said, there is something that is wrong with all of us. In this case, there are doctors and a Physician waiting to bring healing.

PS Thanks for the kind words, Lurker. I honestly believe that those people (whatever their sexual orientation) who are entertaining suicidal thoughts are best served by addressing individual mental-emotional-spiritual state rather than pinning false hopes on the illusory dream that happiness will come once one receives approbation from other human beings or an institution.

[Brenda]

This is the essence of what drives suicides in those who aren't diagnosed with a mental disorder which takes away the ability to make rational choices due to brain chemistry (bipolar, schizophrenia, etc), in my opinion. I also have had this urge during my divorce. I pictured him getting the phone call and the pain he would feel.

What pulled me out of this thinking was the Gospel. Its why I'm alive. My understanding of the Plan of Salvation saved me. That and lots of therapy and meds. God doesn't expect us to survive on faith alone.

Homosexuals do deal with a lot of emotional stressors caused by the lack of acceptance of their lifestyle. The CORRECT choice is to get therapy for these stressors, not suicide. So do many other groups. Homosexuality doesn't excuse selfishness or irrational behavior. Does it suck? Yes. Does it mean they can't find happiness within themselves as all of us must do? No.

Rachel

Thank you for this post. Your view point is really helpful. (And since you're new here, notice the number at the bottom right corner of your post. You've received well-deserved "points" from your peers here.)

[Brenda]

Temple Square Protest Ceeboo here is a link to a local news program showing the protest.

If I was gay, I'd be embarrassed by this silly and ridiculous-looking demonstration.

For the hundredth time, Elder Packer did not say that the temptation is a choice. He said it can be "overcome". This simply means that we all have agency whether to act upon our temptations or not. "Agency is precious. We can foolishly, blindly give it away, but it cannot be forcibly taken from us."

He also said, "The twin principles of repentance and forgiveness exceed in strength the awesome power of the tempter. If you are bound by a habit or an addiction that is unworthy, you must stop conduct that is harmful. Angels will coach you, and priesthood leaders will guide you through those difficult times.Nowhere are the generosity and the kindness and mercy of God more manifest than in repentance."

He offers hope and a solution, but it's just not the solution that these protesters clamor for. The true solution is through repentance (if needed) and the power of the priesthood, that God will help you to manage it somehow, find happiness and fulfillment, and still remain obedient to His commandments.

(This thread will probably go down the same road as all the other threads on this subject, and I apologize for contributing to that.)

[ERayR]

To those who are protesting President Packer do you honestly believe that you have no control over your actions? That you are controlled totally by what ever animal urges that come upon you? In other words do you honestly believe you are an animal with no self control or capacity to reason? No capacity to control your your own destiny?

[CA Steve]

If I was gay, I'd be embarrassed by this silly and ridiculous-looking demonstration.

What would being gay have to do with the demonstration being silly?

[CA Steve]

From stopasuicide.org:

Studies have shown that over 90% of people who die from suicide have one or more psychiatric disorders at the time of their death. Luckily, there are ways to treat and control these disorders and potentially prevent suicide.

Comorbidity (having more than one illness at the same time) and how severe the disorders are can increase someone's risk for suicide. Catching the warning signs early and seeing a doctor or other health care provider for a diagnosis and treatment plan could make it less likely that your friend would commit suicide.

As I said, there is something that is wrong with all of us. In this case, there are doctors and a Physician waiting to bring healing.

PS Thanks for the kind words, Lurker. I honestly believe that those people (whatever their sexual orientation) who are entertaining suicidal thoughts are best served by addressing individual mental-emotional-spiritual state rather than pinning false hopes on the illusory dream that happiness will come once one receives approbation from other human beings or an institution.

I think we agree that there are disorders at the time of suicide and that the factors that lead up to those disorders may be treatable or avoidable. I just felt your statment of "'Mentally healthy people don't commit suicide" was focusing on the end of that journey and not looking at what got a person to that end.

I also think our " individual mental-emotional-spiritual state " is based in large part on "approbation from other human beings or an institutions". Perhaps in the end the only things I am asking for are a little more carrot and a little less stick.

[mercyngrace]

I think we agree that there are disorders at the time of suicide and that the factors that lead up to those disorders may be treatable or avoidable. I just felt your statment of "'Mentally healthy people don't commit suicide" was focusing on the end of that journey and not looking at what got a person to that end.

I also think our " individual mental-emotional-spiritual state " is based in large part on "approbation from other human beings or an institutions". Perhaps in the end the only things I am asking for are a little more carrot and a little less stick.

I really do empathize, Lurker. I'm all for more carrot and less stick but we shouldn't forget that there is a grand purpose to the stick. Finding we are in violation of the law opens our eyes to our need for salvation and points us to the Savior. Were we to pretend there were no law, we would be denying the existence of the God (2 Nephi 2) and teaching that there is no need for a Savior, no hope for redemption, and no transformative love extended to us. In the long run, that is the least compassionate thing we could do.

[CA Steve]

Mercy,

Have you ever seen the movie 'The Fighting Temptations'? One of the last songs is a beautiful song called "He Still Loves Me." I love the lyrics.

[mercyngrace]

Mercy,

Have you ever seen the movie 'The Fighting Temptations'? One of the last songs is a beautiful song called "He Still Loves Me." I love the lyrics.

I haven't but I just looked up and read the lyrics and watched the video on youtube. Reminds me of the gospel music I grew up listening to and singing

edit: True story... when the Veggie Tales movie "Jonah" first came out, I bought the DVD for my children. I put it on to keep them entertained while I worked out. Halfway through the movie an animated gospel choir started singing "God's a god of mercy. God's a god of Love... Our God is the god of second chances." I was sobbing so hard, I had to get off the crosstrainer.

[sansfoy]

Just a reminder that how we treat others can have real consequences.

Four Bullied Teens Commit Suicide.

MENTOR, Ohio

[mercyngrace]

Sansfoy,

I hope you aren't comparing a discourse that promises hope in spite of temptation to being called "Slutty" and mocked on a daily basis?

[sansfoy]

Sansfoy,

I hope you aren't comparing a discourse that promises hope in spite of temptation to being called "Slutty" and mocked on a daily basis?

No, I'm not, but my experience growing up in Utah Valley is that there was brutal bullying toward the weak, the funny looking, and the ones seen as gay or gay acting. Adults at that time used a lot of slurs like fag and homo as well, which filtered down to the Lord of the Flies atmosphere you sometimes see in public schools.

I hope the culture of bullying has changed in the last twenty years, at least among the LDS population. I don't know one way or another.

Also, please read the whole article. One of the students was gay and another was mocked as gay for acting in a way perceived as effeminate. The article is germane to the thread.

[mercyngrace]

No, I'm not, but my experience growing up in Utah Valley is that there was brutal bullying toward the weak, the funny looking, and the ones seen as gay or gay acting. Adults at that time used a lot of slurs like fag and homo as well, which filtered down to the Lord of the Flies atmosphere you sometimes see in public schools.

I hope the culture of bullying has changed in the last twenty years, at least among the LDS population. I don't know one way or another.

Also, please read the whole article. One of the students was gay and another was mocked as gay for acting in a way perceived as effeminate. The article is germane to the thread.

Just clarifying, Sansfoy.

My experience growing up outside of Utah Valley (outside of Utah, in fact) is that it's the same all over.

I did read the article and I agree, it pertains. I grew up with a young man who took his own life because he was persecuted by his peers for being effeminate. You have to remember that 25 years ago, AIDS was just becoming known across our culture. I think it was extremely normal for there to be strong backlash against the subculture that made us all afraid of blood transfusions and public water fountains. (Remember those days?) To look backward and relate those attitudes to the LDS community is pure presentism.

I distinctly remember having special health classes in middle school to warn us of the threat in the days before we actually understood transmission - it was terrifying.

[Brenda]

What would being gay have to do with the demonstration being silly?

The same way I'm embarrassed when an LDS person acts rude or disrespectful online. It makes us all look bad to those who are quick to judge.