A Savage Libel

[sansfoy]

Just clarifying, Sansfoy.

My experience growing up outside of Utah Valley (outside of Utah, in fact) is that it's the same all over.

I think you're probably right, although there is a serious anti-bullying stance in my kids' public schools. I suspect that it was different here, too, at one time.

In spite of the ongoing controversies, I actually applaud the newly emphasized message of the LDS leadership. They've made it clear that demonizing of homosexuals is wrong. I've got to think that this is getting through to some people who really needed to hear this message.

[CA Steve]

The same way I'm embarrassed when an LDS person acts rude or disrespectful online. It makes us all look bad to those who are quick to judge.

I still don't get your point of how being Gay would affect how one viewed the protest. What form of protest would have been aprropriate for a Gay person?

[sansfoy]

I still don't get your point of how being Gay would affect how one viewed the protest. What form of protest would have been aprropriate for a Gay person?

Something involving leather chaps and the soundtrack of Rent.

[Brenda]

I still don't get your point of how being Gay would affect how one viewed the protest. What form of protest would have been aprropriate for a Gay person?

The same kind of protest appropriate for anyone. Meetings, discussions, letters and perhaps in some situations, picketing as a last attempt. Not lying on sidewalks. When you lose your dignity, you lose credibility. But that's just my opinion.

[CA Steve]

The same kind of protest appropriate for anyone. Meetings, discussions, letters and perhaps in some situations, picketing as a last attempt. Not lying on sidewalks. When you lose your dignity, you lose credibility. But that's just my opinion.

So being Gay had nothing to do with it being silly. I know it sounds like I am mincing words but somehow the way you phrased it seemed to imply there is some sort of different standard of acceptable protest for a Gay person than others. Also I think if you look at the civil rights protests of the past you will find that lying down was exactly the right thing to do. Think about it, in a prone position you present no threat to anyone. It is very tough to accuse someone of a violent protest when they are lying down.

[Deborah]

I actually applaud the newly emphasized message of the LDS leadership.

I take exception to the word newly. As long as I've been in the church I have never heard a church leader say we should ever be unkind or shun someone who is different. It think it only seems "newly" because the gay movement itself has become vociferous and in-your-face and so our statements regarding it become more public.

[sansfoy]

I take exception to the word newly. As long as I've been in the church I have never heard a church leader say we should ever be unkind or shun someone who is different. It think it only seems "newly" because the gay movement itself has become vociferous and in-your-face and so our statements regarding it become more public.

Then maybe the protests have some efficacy, if they are spurring more of the much-needed statements needed to dampen the rampant bigotry that used to be present in the LDS population. (And the general public as well, but that's not the subject of this thread.)

[Deborah]

Then maybe the protests have some efficacy, if they are spurring more of the much-needed statements needed to dampen the rampant bigotry that used to be present in the LDS population. (And the general public as well, but that's not the subject of this thread.)

Right. Let's riot and protest and accuse of bigotry so that we can hear more of those words that have always been spoken but now so they can be spoken to more people. That makes no sense. And I take exception again to the "rampant" bigotry. Yes there have always been and still are those who can be considered true bigots both in and out of the church, but rampant. Seriously, people, you should use words with more care.

[mercyngrace]

Then maybe the protests have some efficacy, if they are spurring more of the much-needed statements needed to dampen the rampant bigotry that used to be present in the LDS population. (And the general public as well, but that's not the subject of this thread.)

Jumping back in ....

If the bigotry is significiant among the general population (as the news article you linked suggests) then why are LDS being singled out?

Perhaps for some people, the church will always be a lightning rod.

[Deborah]

I want to know why all the energy is focused on the LDS church when there are groups like that Baptist church that marches and yells at funerals of soldiers. Now that is despicable behavior.

[Brenda]

So being Gay had nothing to do with it being silly. I know it sounds like I am mincing words but somehow the way you phrased it seemed to imply there is some sort of different standard of acceptable protest for a Gay person than others.

No, it had nothing to do with being gay, just the lying on a public sidewalk. I wouldn't want them representing me, if I was gay.

Also I think if you look at the civil rights protests of the past you will find that lying down was exactly the right thing to do. Think about it, in a prone position you present no threat to anyone. It is very tough to accuse someone of a violent protest when they are lying down.

I'd rather STAND for something, than lie for something. It just seems more noble. I also think that any LDS who quietly walked past them in spite disagreement on the issue, demonstrated something noble as well -- self-restraint and tolerance.

[sansfoy]

Jumping back in ....

If the bigotry is significiant among the general population (as the news article you linked suggests) then why are LDS being singled out?

Perhaps for some people, the church will always be a lightning rod.

You took a stand for something: Prop 8. Your political contributions carried the day. And now one of your leaders just spoke out against homosexual behavior. Why should it be a surprise if you drew some extra attention from your actions?

If you don't want opposition, stay silent. If you want to take a stand, be prepared for opposition. That's the way the world works, no matter the issue or the parties involved.

But in any event, they aren't being singled out.

Gay Rights Protests Against Catholic Church.

[CA Steve]

No, it had nothing to do with being gay, just the lying on a public sidewalk. I wouldn't want them representing me, if I was gay.

I'd rather STAND for something, than lie for something. It just seems more noble. I also think that any LDS who quietly walked past them in spite disagreement on the issue, demonstrated something noble as well -- self-restraint and tolerance.

Then I guess you would have to exclude Ghandi from your definition of noble and dignified since his protest involved not standing up.

[mercyngrace]

You took a stand for something: Prop 8. Your political contributions carried the day. And now one of your leaders just spoke out against homosexual behavior. Why should it be a surprise if you drew some extra attention from your actions?

If you don't want opposition, stay silent. If you want to take a stand, be prepared for opposition. That's the way the world works, no matter the issue or the parties involved.

But in any event, they aren't being singled out.

Gay Rights Protests Against Catholic Church.

Sansfoy,

I'm not opposed to opposition. Opposition is central to the plan of salvation. I just find it curious that an ecclesiastical leader saying that we can overcome temptation translates to an invitation to suicide for some listeners.

[USU78]

Just a reminder that how we treat others can have real consequences.

Four Bullied Teens Commit Suicide.

Your point is that Mormons are the bullies and the suicides are the ones being bullied and, therefore, what?

Or is it something else?

[Nathair/|\]

Sansfoy,

I'm not opposed to opposition. Opposition is central to the plan of salvation. I just find it curious that an ecclesiastical leader saying that we can overcome temptation translates to an invitation to suicide for some listeners.

[MorningStar]

How come we don't get blamed for heterosexual fornicators' suicides?

[asbestosman]

How come we don't get blamed for heterosexual fornicators' suicides?

Actually we do get blamed for that too.

[MorningStar]

Actually we do get blamed for that too.

Are we responsible for everyone's suicides?

[sansfoy]

Your point is that Mormons are the bullies and the suicides are the ones being bullied and, therefore, what?

Or is it something else?

No, that's not my point at all. None of the people in the story I linked to were LDS. Did you read it?

[TAO]

Are we responsible for everyone's suicides?

Apparently so. Mmm... they need to learn to put their burdens on Christ... they would feel so much better I think.

[jskains]

This is just another strategy in the gay agenda. It is a method of silencing a group they view as influential.

A mature person would not be concerned that what the Mormon Church says causes suicides, but that people commit suicide based on what some Church says.

Blaming the LDS Church is a bandaid. Fixing these suicidal people and preventing them from killing themselves over words is the cure.

How far are we willing to go to silence everyone that might say something that could set off a suicidal individual?

If you stretch it, everything pro-American could potentially cause a psycho Islamic follower to commit suicide, and take people with them... Shall we silence all pro-American commentary?

JMS

[USU78]

No, that's not my point at all. None of the people in the story I linked to were LDS. Did you read it?

Then I'm clueless why the anecdote had anything to do with the issue at hand, the vicious libel being perpetrated upon the LDS Church and Mormons generally every time a "spokesman" for SSDS sufferers has a media mike thrust in his face.

[asbestosman]

Are we responsible for everyone's suicides?

I think we get blamed for all suicides where the one taking his / her life also felt guilty about something society says is okay but which we proclaim is sinful. Using this standard, we won't get blamed for someone committing suicide who is also a hothead and beats his wife and kids. Sure he should get help, not kill himself. Even so we won't get blamed because the rest of society also agrees that those are things he should feel guilty about.

[Avatar4321]

I am glad we have figured out that the person who commits suicide is the responsible party. Maybe instead of worrying about whose fault it is we should ask ourselves if there is anything we can do to help reduce the number of future suicides. Just a thought.

The beautiful part of the Atonement is that it can not only prevent future suicides, but it can heal those who have committed suicide so that they live once again.