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A Savage Libel


USU78

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The folks who lay on the sidewalk around Temple Square last night, to a man, claimed LDS are responsible for suicides by self-identifying sufferers of SSDS.

This is a vicious lie. No person or organized body of persons has caused any death, self-inflicted or otherwise, by anybody. There is no legal causation. There is no moral causation. There is not even any legal or moral contributory involvement.

It's time the LDS stood up to this savage bullying by the "Ten-Percent" crowd.

Knock off the lies. Knock off the bigotry.

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The folks who lay on the sidewalk around Temple Square last night, to a man, claimed LDS are responsible for suicides by self-identifying sufferers of SSDS.

This is a vicious lie. No person or organized body of persons has caused any death, self-inflicted or otherwise, by anybody. There is no legal causation. There is no moral causation. There is not even any legal or moral contributory involvement.

It's time the LDS stood up to this savage bullying by the "Ten-Percent" crowd.

Knock off the lies. Knock off the bigotry.

Is the Church also responsible for all the gay suicides in San Francisco where the gay life is celebrated and even encouraged?

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I don't know how you prove the cause of suicide. Are there claims set up as some unfalsifiable thing? I mean they can't prove their claims true, but no one can prove what was, exactly, the cause of certain suicides?

I simply don't get suicides at all. Its a travesty that I wish wasn't part of any of this.

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I don't know how you prove the cause of suicide. Are there claims set up as some unfalsifiable thing? I mean they can't prove their claims true, but no one can prove what was, exactly, the cause of certain suicides?

I simply don't get suicides at all. Its a travesty that I wish wasn't part of any of this.

There's also this: even the suicide who leaves a note or video or somesuch cannot be considered reliable if he were to blame the Church or Church members or family members for his suicide. He simply lacks reliability, unless you want to make assumptions about the nobility and non-emotional content of a SSDS sufferer's suicide.

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The talk of suicide right now hits pretty close to home. Since my nieces goth friend hung herself at work last week knowing full well that my niece would be the one to find her. I don't know much of the details, Just that she had been depressed for a while.

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The folks who lay on the sidewalk around Temple Square last night, to a man, claimed LDS are responsible for suicides by self-identifying sufferers of SSDS.

This is a vicious lie. No person or organized body of persons has caused any death, self-inflicted or otherwise, by anybody. There is no legal causation. There is no moral causation. There is not even any legal or moral contributory involvement.

It's time the LDS stood up to this savage bullying by the "Ten-Percent" crowd.

Knock off the lies. Knock off the bigotry.

No need to respond to something so completely absurd and obvious.

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No need to respond to something so completely absurd and obvious.

I disagree, ELF. The more this libel is repeated, the more likely that people who casually look at assertions like this will be to accept it uncritically. And if they accept it, they may make decisions, individually and/or in groups, that might affect our ability to continue as a Church, building our temples, doing our temple work, sending our missionaries out, and whatnot.

Baseless lies led to the Utah War. People accepted the absurd because of a verisimilitude imposed upon it by conscienceless liars.

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The folks who lay on the sidewalk around Temple Square last night, to a man, claimed LDS are responsible for suicides by self-identifying sufferers of SSDS.

This is a vicious lie. No person or organized body of persons has caused any death, self-inflicted or otherwise, by anybody. There is no legal causation. There is no moral causation. There is not even any legal or moral contributory involvement.

It's time the LDS stood up to this savage bullying by the "Ten-Percent" crowd.

Knock off the lies. Knock off the bigotry.

Hey USU (Hope all is well with you and yours)

For those of us who aren't really sure what your talking about, what are the "folks laying on the sidewalk" doing?

Who are they?

Thanks and peace,

Ceeboo

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Hey USU (Hope all is well with you and yours)

Thanks, ol' buddy ol' pal! Still basking in my Ags' thumping of the parochial menace (BYU) last Friday night in football. Hope you're having a terrific evening.

For those of us who aren't really sure what your talking about, what are the "folks laying on the sidewalk" doing? Who are they?

Local kneejerk homosexuals [so-called] were outraged by a couple of sentences in an address by one of the LDS General Authorities at our October General Conference last weekend. Seems that the merest mention that homosexuality is a manageable condition . . . and that repentance for homosexual behavior is possible . . . sends 'em into a red rage.

They did a protest by doing a "daisy-chain" lie-in, with each person lying on his back with his head on the belly of the person behind him, going as far around Temple Square as they could, all to represent the suicides by kids who are both Mormon and who self-identified as homosexual. Seems it's all our fault somehow.

Yet too many people seem to believe this outrageous fiction.

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I am glad we have figured out that the person who commits suicide is the responsible party. Maybe instead of worrying about whose fault it is we should ask ourselves if there is anything we can do to help reduce the number of future suicides. Just a thought.

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I'm not sure that blame has to be a part of the equation (although I'm sure it has great motivational value). The question as I see it is this: can we as a society do something to decrease the number of suicides? If so, how? Regardless of who is to blame, would suicide rates be less if people didn't feel as discouraged about themselves? If so, how hard would be to keep them from feeling so discouraged? Can we offer them hope and support, or would that not help? I'm not saying we aren't doing any of those things. All I'm saying is that maybe some people do feel discouaged and for a variety of reasons. Maybe some of those reasons are valid reasons to feel bad (such as when one abuses his spouse). Maybe some of them are things you shouldn't feel discouraged about (you're not the smartest, most attractive, or strongest). Regardless of the source or even the validity of remorse, I don't think we want people to feel hopeless. While people need to feel remorse about certain things, they shouldn't feel like they are fundamentally broken or vile, and that there's no hope in life.

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Maybe instead of worrying about whose fault it is we should ask ourselves if there is anything we can do to help reduce the number of future suicides. Just a thought.

I had the same thought. However, there are obviously limits. I mean, I don't want to lock everyone up in a padded room just to make sure they can't hurt themselves. I also don't want to give all students A's just to make sure none feel bad about school. Furthermore, there are things people should feel bad about. However, I don't think anyone should feel hopeless.

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They did a protest by doing a "daisy-chain" lie-in, with each person lying on his back with his head on the belly of the person behind him, going as far around Temple Square as they could, all to represent the suicides by kids who are both Mormon and who self-identified as homosexual.

Statistically speaking, the research has demonstrated that a young man who is active in the church (as measured by holding the age appropriate priesthood) is less likely to commit suicide than a less active or nonmember.

Do we get to be responsible for those we save according to this logic?

Do the stats show a difference between actual identified teen suicide believed to be caused by suicide by proper authorities (most likely medical or psychological experts who are familiar with the cases) by nonmembers compared to LDS?

Do they even show it for self-reported?

Any research out there not based on anecdotal reports?

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Statistically speaking, the research has demonstrated that a young man who is active in the church (as measured by holding the age appropriate priesthood) is less likely to commit suicide than a less active or nonmember.

Do we get to be responsible for those we save according to this logic?

Do the stats show a difference between actual identified teen suicide believed to be caused by suicide by proper authorities (most likely medical or psychological experts who are familiar with the cases) by nonmembers compared to LDS?

Do they even show it for self-reported?

Any research out there not based on anecdotal reports?

I don't think the liars/bigots care.

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I am glad we have figured out that the person who commits suicide is the responsible party. Maybe instead of worrying about whose fault it is we should ask ourselves if there is anything we can do to help reduce the number of future suicides. Just a thought.

So many fallacies in so few words. Lurker, you don't get to play the hysteria card here. Fact is, neither you nor anybody else can show any connection between the Church's policies or doctrine or the members' actions or beliefs and any person's suicide. It is a contemptible lie to make the connection. Only a shameless liar would do it.

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So many fallacies in so few words. Lurker, you don't get to play the hysteria card here. Fact is, neither you nor anybody else can show any connection between the Church's policies or doctrine or the members' actions or beliefs and any person's suicide. It is a contemptible lie to make the connection. Only a shameless liar would do it.

You don't have to be part of the problem in order to be part of the solution.

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You don't have to be part of the problem in order to be part of the solution.

True enough. The gospel provides solutions to a great variety of maladies in this here world, though we but imperfectly understand how that happens.

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They did a protest by doing a "daisy-chain" lie-in, with each person lying on his back with his head on the belly of the person behind him...

We used to do this when I was a kid...we called it the "belly laugh."

Lie down as described by USU, then one person says, "Ha!" The next person says, "Haha!" and

pretty soon everyone is laughing hysterically as their heads bump up and down on

their friends' tummies. Try it in home evening! Also works well at High Priest socials.

Bernard

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If Mormons don't change their doctrines, homosexuals will commit suicide. And, if homosexuals kill themselves, it will the the Mormon's fault?

Six

If Mormons do change their doctrines, homosexuals will still commit suicide. And, when homosexuals still kill themselves, it will still be the Mormons' fault.

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So many fallacies in so few words. Lurker, you don't get to play the hysteria card here. Fact is, neither you nor anybody else can show any connection between the Church's policies or doctrine or the members' actions or beliefs and any person's suicide. It is a contemptible lie to make the connection. Only a shameless liar would do it.

Fallacies? Hysteria? Please point out where I have said there is a connection. You have totaly missed my point and continue to beat the same drum. I don't care whose fault it is. We should be focused on what we can do (if anything) to decrease the numbers. At least tell me you think that part is important also.

On edit. I do believe the church is doing some things in this area. I think it is especially helpful that leadership is attending conferences and meetings on this subject. Sometimes just having someone listen can be an enormous source of comfort.

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Lie down as described by USU, then one person says, "Ha!" The next person says, "Haha!" and

pretty soon everyone is laughing hysterically as their heads bump up and down on

their friends' tummies. Try it in home evening! Also works well at High Priest socials.

I don't know, it sounds kind of...gay. :P

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