LDS Church issues statement on immigration

[ERayR]

Methinks thou dost misunderstand what charity is.

I understand very well what charity is. To be charity in any form it must be freely given.

I have a difficult time imagining the Savior clamoring for the deportation of undocumented aliens who only want to provide a better life for their families.

And so I repeat, Remember charity.

I have on more than one occasion argued that very concept. The problem we have here is those are all dumped in with all the other illegal immigrants and there are enough of the lawless and leaches to make it a problem for all concerned. If something is not done and soon this, added to all the other problems we have, is a problem that could stretch our government to the breaking point.

An old adage is that charity begins at home.

Note also my previous posts where I absolutly oppose turning church officers into immigration authorities.

[The King's Servant]

I thank the Lord every day that we have such wise and compassionate leaders in the Church.

Are you serious? They said nothing. A fifth-grader could have come up with a more complex and wise statement. Meanwhile, the borders are dangerous - murder is on our doorstep in the southwest - and drugs smugglers own the deserts! Illegals are bringing antibiotic resistant diseases across our borders - and maybe your kid will be sitting next to them in the classroom. And "guest worker" programs are a joke - "guest workers" reproduce, have babies on American soil (who are now entitled to welfare, food stamps and Medicaid). They are a drain.

They should have told Obama to get our soldiers down there and protect American citizens! Have some compassion for Americans for a change! Political correctness is not compassion or wisdom. Mexico needs to be fixed - it is a broken system - a failed state.

[ERayR]

Are you serious? They said nothing. A fifth-grader could have come up with a more complex and wise statement. Meanwhile, the borders are dangerous - murder is on our doorstep in the southwest - and drugs smugglers own the deserts! Illegals are bringing antibiotic resistant diseases across our borders - and maybe your kid will be sitting next to them in the classroom. And "guest worker" programs are a joke - "guest workers" reproduce, have babies on American soil (who are now entitled to welfare, food stamps and Medicaid). They are a drain.

They should have told Obama to get our soldiers down there and protect American citizens! Have some compassion for Americans for a change! Political correctness is not compassion or wisdom. Mexico needs to be fixed - it is a broken system - a failed state.

And they are all taking refuge in the Salt Lake Temple.

Yes the LDS leaders have right. It is a government problem and they should be solving it.

[DanGB]

Yes the LDS leaders have right. It is a government problem and they should be solving it.

Obeying the laws of the land was a command revealed to our Prophet. Should the Church leave it to the gov't to to ensure our worthy members, supposedly in good standing, are following God's command?

Maybe we should just turn over the TR interview to our local civil servants!

[cdowis]

Are you serious? They said nothing. A fifth-grader could have come up with a more complex and wise statement. Meanwhile, the borders are dangerous - murder is on our doorstep in the southwest - and drugs smugglers etc etc etc

I am very serious.

The statement calls for patience and tolerance in our attitudes and behaviour. It's about our Christian attitude.

That is the duty of the church.

It does not even pretend to offer the solution to the problem, which is the responsibility of the state.

King etc, you clearly do not understand the church at all.

[ERayR]

Obeying the laws of the land was a command revealed to our Prophet. Should the Church leave it to the gov't to to ensure our worthy members, supposedly in good standing, are following God's command?

Maybe we should just turn over the TR interview to our local civil servants!

And you are obeying all the laws of the land? Maybe you should reevaluate your own worthiness to carry a temple recommend.

Once more the temple recommend interview is a guided self evaluation. The bishop asks the questions and you evaluate your own performance in each of the areas covered and answer. The final question being the overall evaluation "Are you..."

It seems you are willing to judge others performance but loath to give critical evaluation to your own.

The whole beam and mote thing. I'm sure you've heard about it.

[BCSpace]

And you are obeying all the laws of the land? Maybe you should reevaluate your own worthiness to carry a temple recommend.

Doesn't follow. If I speed, I get a ticket, I pay the fine, I have ultimately submitted to the law. Should not an illegal immigrant therefore, submit to deportation, denial of services, whatever the law calls for, etc.?

[ERayR]

Doesn't follow. If I speed, I get a ticket, I pay the fine, I have ultimately submitted to the law. Should not an illegal immigrant therefore, submit to deportation, denial of services, whatever the law calls for, etc.?

To expand just a little. I rob a store, I get caught, I go to jail, I have ultimatly submitted to the law. So my standing in the church, temple recommend, etc should not me affect as long as I receive my punishment (pay the fine)? A little further, I find someone abusing a child and the law can't/doesn't touch him so I shoot him. I am accountable to the law and the law does its job on me. I have submitted to the law. Should I still hold all my church benefits? I have submitted to the law.

Edited to add: What about the times you knowingly choose to speed and are not caught? You have not submitted to the law and are guilty of choosing to not honor or sustain the law of the land. You can not say you have submitted to the law unless you turn yourself in and pay the fine. Even then if you persist in speeding you have not submitted.

[Jeff K.]

Doesn't follow. If I speed, I get a ticket, I pay the fine, I have ultimately submitted to the law. Should not an illegal immigrant therefore, submit to deportation, denial of services, whatever the law calls for, etc.?

What if you speed and don't get a ticket? And then speed again and don't get one? Is the law only broken if you are caught?

[LeSellers]

And you are obeying all the laws of the land?

The laws are so voluminous that no one can obey them all. (Jefferson warned us about this, but few have the understanding to know that this is one of the ways government keeps people off balance. It is impossible to drive more than a mile without breaking one law or another).

There is nothing that you touch from the time you arise until you fall, exhausted, into bed at night that is not controlled, regulated, or taxed. This is the very definition of subjugation.

On the other hand, it is not too difficult to know that illegal aliens know and understand that what they are doing in crossing the borders illegally because of the efforts they take to avoid getting caught.

Lehi

[ERayR]

The laws are so voluminous that no one can obey them all. (Jefferson warned us about this, but few have the understanding to know that this is one of the ways government keeps people off balance. It is impossible to drive more than a mile without breaking one law or another).

There is nothing that you touch from the time you arise until you fall, exhausted, into bed at night that is not controlled, regulated, or taxed. This is the very definition of subjugation.

On the other hand, it is not too difficult to know that illegal aliens know and understand that what they are doing in crossing the borders illegally because of the efforts they take to avoid getting caught.

Lehi

I know this I am just trying to point out how pharisitical it is for someone who does something as simple as driving down the freeway and continously makes a concious decision to disobey traffic laws then condemn and denounce the worthiness of someone else based on obeying the law. I am not condoning illegal imigration but I am condemning hypocrasy. Jesus was quite critical of hypocrasy himself.

Edited to add: Get a thread on the government enforcing imigration laws and stopping the flood of illigal imigration and I will be a fervent spokesman for doing just that.

[DanGB]

I know this I am just trying to point out how pharisitical it is for someone who does something as simple as driving down the freeway and continously makes a concious decision to disobey traffic laws then condemn and denounce the worthiness of someone else based on obeying the law.

Those that get into a car each day have no intention of deliberately braking the law each and every day. If they did, and their bishop knew that was their intention, you can be assured a good bishop would either consel them against their decision or to get help to rectify the problem.

Those who are here illegally do it intentionally every day of their lives. Why should a bishop or the Church not counsel them in the same way to rectify the problem???

[ERayR]

Those that get into a car each day have no intention of deliberately braking the law each and every day. If they did, and their bishop knew that was their intention, you can be assured a good bishop would either consel them against their decision or to get help to rectify the problem.

Those who are here illegally do it intentionally every day of their lives. Why should a bishop or the Church not counsel them in the same way to rectify the problem???

Those that get in the car and start down the freeway have every intention of breaking the speed limit else they wouldn't set cruise control for 5 miles over the speed limit. You have not paid attention to my posts. Two or three days ago I wrote just that and asked that if we don't baptise them how can we teach them and influence their lives.

Again I am not for illegal imigration. And again the hypocrisy of those who deliberatly, day after day, break laws and then stand with self righous indignation condeming others is an affront to me.

[DanGB]

Two or three days ago I wrote just that and asked that if we don't baptise them how can we teach them and influence their lives.

Now I don't get invited by the Seventy to all of their planning meetings, but last time I checked we were doing baptisms in Mexico. We can even baptize them in the country they are legal citizens! Imagine that, our Heavenly Father had figured out how to baptize and keep His command!! Smart "Guy"!

[ERayR]

Now I don't get invited by the Seventy to all of their planning meetings, but last time I checked we were doing baptisms in Mexico. We can even baptize them in the country they are legal citizens! Imagine that, our Heavenly Father had figured out how to baptize and keep His command!! Smart "Guy"!

What are you going to do about your own problem with abiding by the laws of the land?

[DanGB]

What are you going to do about your own problem with abiding by the laws of the land?

Bless me Father ERayR, for I have sinned. It's been 6 months since my last confession. Just let me know how many "Hail Mary's and Our Fathers" you believe, in your arrogant judgement, are needed!!

[ERayR]

Bless me Father ERayR, for I have sinned. It's been 6 months since my last confession. Just let me know how many "Hail Mary's and Our Fathers" you believe, in your arrogant judgement, are needed!!

It is not I who shouted arrogant judgements throughout this post about the sinners who broke the law of the land. It was not I who justified their own law breaking, (Those that get into a car each day have no intention of deliberately braking the law each and every day. If they did, and their bishop knew that was their intention, you can be assured a good bishop would either consel them against their decision or to get help to rectify the problem.)

Meditate a little on Matt.23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

[DanGB]

It is not I who shouted arrogant judgements throughout this post about the sinners who broke the law of the land. It was not I who justified their own law breaking, (Those that get into a car each day have no intention of deliberately braking the law each and every day. If they did, and their bishop knew that was their intention, you can be assured a good bishop would either consel them against their decision or to get help to rectify the problem.)

Meditate a little on Matt.23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

This is a classic example of one not understanding scripture and context relevant to a focused issue!!

Meditate on this ERayR, it is applicable to the context of this thread:

D&C 58:21:

[Stargazer]

I struggled along reading this thread from beginning to end, several times wanting to comment, but it was certain I was going to be bringing up points already exhausted. It was a long slog.

Anyway, I seem to be able to see both sides of the question. DanGB insists that the church acts to enforce federal (and possibly Arizona) immigration law by inquiring as to immigration status, or at least that's what it seems like he is asking, and I think he has something of a point. Then there is the argument that we must have charity, and I guess just stand out of the way while the federal government enforces its own laws (or not, more likely). I can see that as well.

But the Church is not in the business of enforcing civil laws, per se. A certain policy emerged over the last decade or so that Stake Presidents weren't to recommend men for Bishop who were active law enforcement officers, because their duty to the civil laws might conceivably be in conflict with their ecclesiastical duty. Don't CFR me on this, please, because I don't have access to that information, and although I'm pretty sure I heard this from a reliable source, I can't be 100% on it. It's reasonable, at least, don't you think?

So, when a bishop asks a person if they are worthy to enter the temple, as has been pointed out, he is asking for a self-assessment. Is the illegal immigrant going to bring up his or her immigration status as a possible choke point? Maybe, but probably not. I guess DanGB and his fellow-travelers want the bishop to ask about the immigration status in the temple recommend interview. I guess if the church decided that this was going to be one of the questions (like the question of whether or not you're complying with child-support requirements is an official question today), then fine. Let's say they do add that question. In that case, does the bishop have to accept the person's declaration? Consider for comparison sake, the Word of Wisdom. If DanGB or Stargazer, for that matter, is asked Do you keep the Word of Wisdom, and the response is Yes, is the bishop supposed to drill down to details? Maybe the bishop wonders if the person understands what the word of wisdom is, and I think it would be acceptable to ask about that understanding, but the bishop isn't supposed to be getting off on a hobby horse with the TR questions. I remember a Stake President in So. California in the mid-70's who was denying TRs to members who admitted to drinking Coke. Even back then, there was no such question in the TR interview -- he was freelancing on his hobby horse. The church has gotten wise to this kind of thing and interviewers aren't supposed to freelance any longer. Else maybe you get some nutcase bishop (or counselor) who wants to get into private sexual practices between husband and wife in order to determine worthiness. So if the illegal immigrant says to the bishop "I'm here legally," is the bishop supposed to ask to see his Green card or something? Employers are supposed to do that, because there's a law requiring it, but is the Church supposed to appoint itself as an immigration busybody? What about you yourself? You think it's your obligation or right to go door to door asking to see people's legal residency documents? Well, nothing stops you, I guess, but there's no legal requirement for anyone to prove to you, immigration busybody, whether they're here legally or not.

I can see it now. The rule changes and bishops have to ask: are you legally here in this country? Next thing you know the SPLC or the ACLU is entering a class-action lawsuit against the church. And if Obama wants to sue the state of Arizona for enforcing federal immigation laws, then what is going to stop Obama from suing the church about it? Nothing that I can see.

So the church seems to be between a rock and a hard place on this issue. And I think the moderate stance described in the OP is exactly right on.

THAT BEING SAID, I am seriously concerned about the illegal immigration problem. I have not personally been affected in any measurable way, but other members of my family have been. I have two sons who live in Georgia and who are roofers. Around the city of Augusta there is a particular roofing company which has more-or-less cornered the roofing business by the simple means of getting rid of all its legal roofing workers and hiring only illegals. And paying them a fraction of the going labor rate, this company has been able to pretty much drive every other roofer out of business. One son gave up his company and moved to Hawaii hoping to find better work conditions (and amazingly enough he is doing much better there, despite the economic conditions and that he is a "haole"). The son who remains in Georgia can't find work. When he has attempted to bid on jobs he has found himself being physically threatened by the illegals -- who apparently as part of their employment hang around jobsites specifically to drive potential competitors away. And the immigation officials in the area have better things to do.

Some of you who think that we should just open the borders and let all and sundry cross at will are going to find yourselves in a real bind eventually. Not only illegal workers, but also terrorists can cross these borders easily enough to make it a real mystery why we haven't already had more terrorist incidents.

[DanGB]

So, when a bishop asks a person if they are worthy to enter the temple, as has been pointed out, he is asking for a self-assessment.

Well, why have the bishop do a TR interview at all if we are to just give our own "self assesment"? Why not just have everyone evaluate themselves and admit themself into the Temple if they have, under their "self evaluation and interpretation" of our doctrine, determined they are worthy? So if I only had a couple of beers, no big deal under my self assesment. If I cheated on my wife, I determined that it was only an isolated passing moment of weakness under my self assesment. Certainly when I look at all the good I've done and all the new converts and/or baptisms I initiated, as I've assessed my worthiness, I can overlook the doctrine violations above because they were isolated and do not detract from the good I do. I mean it's not like I do them EVERY day. Clearly, I have rationalized and/or assessed that I am worthy!!!

Where in the hell do we draw the line as to what our doctrine is or isn't? If our Church won't stand up to it when it is black and white, why should anyone care if I don't? Why do I need a TR interview at all? It's all just a "self assessment"!

[Danzo]

For those of you who want to steady the ark, at what point does a person become unworth to go to the temple or be baptized?

Does it happen when a person overstays their visa? (If that were the case, I would have been unworthy the last week of my mission)

Does it happen if there is no visa, is that when you become unworthy?

Does it happen if a person works more than 20 hours a week on a student visa?

Does it happen if they have a valid SSN but no status?

What if they are self employed? It is not illegal to own a business while a foreign national without status.

What if they tell everyone that they are here without status, are they still unworthy?

What if their status is pending? should that worthy of church disipline?

What about children who want to be baptized? should they be punished by the church for the sins(?) of their fathers?

[frankenstein]

2 Nephi 28:8

8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God--he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little,

take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so

be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

[ttribe]

The latest on our controversial law here in AZ - Story Link

[semlogo]

Doesn't follow. If I speed, I get a ticket, I pay the fine, I have ultimately submitted to the law. Should not an illegal immigrant therefore, submit to deportation, denial of services, whatever the law calls for, etc.?

If you speed but don't get caught, do you turn yourself in?

[negragardenia]

BCSpace, on 24 July 2010 - 11:46 AM, said:

Doesn't follow. If I speed, I get a ticket, I pay the fine, I have ultimately submitted to the law. Should not an illegal immigrant therefore, submit to deportation, denial of services, whatever the law calls for, etc.?

If you speed but don't get caught, do you turn yourself in?

Nice one Semlogo!