LDS Church issues statement on immigration

[mbh26]

I don't see how any legal formula is going to benefit all of God's children in a reasonable period of time. Letting more people in is not going to solve the problem. There will always be more people who want in than the economy has space for. I really do not see how making it easier for people to come is going to change anything. You'll still have a nearly infinite population of would be immigrants. There will always be employers looking to pay people as little as possible and there will always be people across the border willing to work for less.

[DanGB]

I think the church's weighing in with a neutral statement is wise in this instance, in order to keep their own nose clean from possible local actions taken by zealots on either side who might be at the ward level.

I think the Church is just led more by a PR firm model for growth now more than anything else.

It has no problem with (nor did I) pushing against gay rights on prop 8. There was only upside as it was not looking for gay members but those who (like me) wanted to draw the line. It was pushed into a compromise on doctrine w the Jewish community for fear of religious backlash having to come out and get into historical and doctrinal issues they would not want to officially publically stand behind. We suddenly have a convenient revelations on marriage (when we needed statehood) and blacks (when we have the NAACP and virtually all NCAA schools blasting us as racists) so we can attempt to gain converts.

Now, when our growth (outside of internal family growth) has come to a snail's pace, we capitulate again on our doctrine because illegals and the latin communty seems to be our current growth avenue. Breaking the law of land and our doctrine is acceptable for growth only!!

Otherwise, we are the most conservative Church in the world - until growth stalls!

[semlogo]

False analogy.

It is the fraud one must commit in order to earn enough to live as an illegal that folks find objectionable. How can one honestly answer the Temple Recommend and Baptismal questions while living and teaching one's children a lie is what gives so many folks pause.

Find me a speeding analogy that includes a related and necessary fraud, and we can talk.

Speeding endangers lives. Much worse than so-called "fraud."

[USU78]

Speeding endangers lives. Much worse than so-called "fraud."

If it were your or your spouse's or your child's SSN that was stolen in order to enable an illegal to work and, perhaps, get government benefits . . . or perhaps incur debt . . . or perhaps incur tax liability . . . perhaps you would give this matter more thought prior to so cavalierly brushing aside the concerns.

[semlogo]

If it were your or your spouse's or your child's SSN that was stolen in order to enable an illegal to work and, perhaps, get government benefits . . . or perhaps incur debt . . . or perhaps incur tax liability . . . perhaps you would give this matter more thought prior to so cavalierly brushing aside the concerns.

Better that than my spouse's or child's life endangered by a reckless driver.

Any data on what percentage of illegals are using stolen SS #s?

[frankenstein]

.

[USU78]

Any data on what percentage of illegals are using stolen SS #s?

Saw some a while back. Numbers were pretty scary. Looks like a good research project for you.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Better that than my spouse's or child's life endangered by a reckless driver.

Any data on what percentage of illegals are using stolen SS #s?

Nonsense, you act as though if your SS was stolen that everything is fine and dandy. Wait until it happens to you. You will sing a differnet tune. No one aruged that it is better to have a stolen SS over being endagered by a reckless driver.

And the aspect about what percentage of illegals using a stolen SS is totally irrelevant to the fact that stolen identity can wreck your life.

[semlogo]

Nonsense, you act as though if your SS was stolen that everything is fine and dandy. Wait until it happens to you. You will sing a differnet tune. No one aruged that it is better to have a stolen SS over being endagered by a reckless driver.

And the aspect about what percentage of illegals using a stolen SS is totally irrelevant to the fact that stolen identity can wreck your life.

I've had my identity stolen. It sucks. But to assume that the LDS illegal immigrants are doing it is totally baseless - and I'm still waiting for data on how many illegals in general do it.

Pro-tip: Many natural born American citizens commit ID theft too.

[LeSellers]

If it were your or your spouse's or your child's SSN that was stolen in order to enable an illegal to work and, perhaps, get government benefits . . . or perhaps incur debt . . . or perhaps incur tax liability . . . perhaps you would give this matter more thought prior to so cavalierly brushing aside the concerns.

Here in Colorado, our capital, Denver, is a "Sanctuary City" is a quickly becoming a "Sanctuary State".

An octogenarian Rxxxx Wallace, heard a noise in his yrd, went outside where he sat two (subsequently determined to be illegal aliens, now in an ICE house nearby) men stealing his lo-boy trailer. He shouted at them, they ignored him. He got his weapon, and stood in front of their Ford Crew Cab truck. They accelerated toward him, he fired two shots, one of which hit the passenger.

The driver, after hiding the trailer (first things first, doncha know) took his accomplice to the hospital. Meanwhile, Mr. Wallace called the Westminster Police and reported the theft. The District Attorney charged him with twelve felony counts, including four counts of Attempted First Degree Murder.

Meanwhile, the thieves admitted their crime, but were not charge. Several weeks later, ICE picked them both up, except for the one who was still in the Hospital. The driver (uninjured) presented a "valid" Colorado Driver License, issued in 1995, when the felon was 18. He also used an antiSocial inSecurity car, issued in Washington in 1968 (Warning! math alert!).

A local radio announcer (whose friend was murdered by an illegal alien against whom no charges have been filed), has taken this by the horns. He and his producer found out to whom the aSiS card was issued, and called him in California. The man, a Mr. ****inson, answered the producer's call and hung up telling him. "I'm not interested." When Peter Boyles called, on air, ****inson said, "Find your story somewhere else," when Boyles told him that his aSiS number had been used in a felony. A second call, still on air, got his answering machine, in Spanish and English. A third attempt clarified the ****enson was still very unhappy about the publicity.

It turns out that ****inson's aSiS number is being used by two others, the Colorado felon, ****enson, and someone else, at least.

The local CoP, DA, and his PIO are all on record as saying that there is no reason to suspect that the two illegals' identification (although only one had any) was suspect, nor that their immigration status (they neither speak English) was in question.

The old man is facing life in prison, the loss of all of his property (to pay the hospital bills for the alien), and a stressful trial (probably with a public "defender" for a lawyer, although there is talk of a legal defense fund).

The aliens, nothing. They were not arrested in spite of their admission of a felony. They were not detained for ICE, that happened only after the radio shows started putting pressure on the law enforcement community.

Now, the question before the house today is what is the consequence of having a stolen antiSocial inSecurity card/number? It can be horrendous. however, it appears that ****enson could be part of a ring of such identity thieves. We know of three people who are using the same card.

A called to the show told of his own experience where the IRS claimed he owed $35,000 in taxes because someone in a distant state was using his number.

The numbers of people affected by this is would be incomprehensible. Congress just passed so-called Financial Reform Bill. They would much better have spent their time crafting and passing legislation making identity theft a capital crime, because, from my experience with debt-elimination, such theft is, in many respects worse than murder.

"Innocent" illegal aliens destroy the lives of people they have never met by taking their aSiS numbers. "Innocent" illegal aliens impoverish local governments, and distort economies. Not-so-innocent illegal aliens have killed, raped, robbed, crippled, and otherwise harmed thousands of other people (including other illegal aliens) in just this past year. Yes, they may be Heavenly Father's children, but so were Idi Amin and Al Capone. That is no reason to turn our collective backs on the harm they do.

Lehi

[ERayR]

Nonsense, you act as though if your SS was stolen that everything is fine and dandy. Wait until it happens to you. You will sing a differnet tune. No one aruged that it is better to have a stolen SS over being endagered by a reckless driver.

And the aspect about what percentage of illegals using a stolen SS is totally irrelevant to the fact that stolen identity can wreck your life.

And you are assuming the ones being baptised are the ones stealing SS#'s. Justify that assumption if you can.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Pro-tip: Many natural born American citizens commit ID theft too.

Realy, so they cross the boarder and steal some one elses SS?

[ttribe]

Realy, so they cross the boarder and steal some one elses SS?

They don't cross the border, but they do steal SS#'s and identity. There's a lot of easy money to be made in ID theft schemes, and the desire to commit that kind of fraud transcends national origin. That being said, the problem of ID theft amongst illegal immigrants is substantial. Here are some stats - Link.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

And you are assuming the ones being baptised are the ones stealing SS#'s. Justify that assumption if you can.

They may or may not. Let me ask my father-in-law. He is the head painter for a hotel chain. He says that he always gets his painters that are hispanic that work for him for a while and then they get deported and come back to work for him in a few months with a new name and new SS.

I am sure some of them are LDS. If I can confirm that some of these hispanic workers that get deported and come back to work are LDS would that be sufficent for you?

However I never did make the claim that "the ones stealing SS" are being baptized into the church. I have no idea. Are there a few? Probably. Is it wide spread? I doubt it. But what if it was, would that matter to you or anyone else here?

[ttribe]

They may or may not. Let me ask my father-in-law. He is the head painter for a hotel chain. He says that he always gets his painters that are hispanic that work for him for a while and then they get deported and come back to work for him in a few months with a new name and new SS.

I am sure some of them are LDS. If I can confirm that some of these hispanic workers that get deported and come back to work are LDS would that be sufficent for you?

However I never did make the claim that "the ones stealing SS" are being baptized into the church. I have no idea. Are there a few? Probably. Is it wide spread? I doubt it. But what if it was, would that matter to you or anyone else here?

Don't bother, I know of at least one LDS family who has been in the U.S. for years using fraudulent documents. It happens.

[ERayR]

Here in Colorado, our capital, Denver, is a "Sanctuary City" is a quickly becoming a "Sanctuary State".

An octogenarian Rxxxx Wallace, heard a noise in his yrd, went outside where he sat two (subsequently determined to be illegal aliens, now in an ICE house nearby) men stealing his lo-boy trailer. He shouted at them, they ignored him. He got his weapon, and stood in front of their Ford Crew Cab truck. They accelerated toward him, he fired two shots, one of which hit the passenger.

The driver, after hiding the trailer (first things first, doncha know) took his accomplice to the hospital. Meanwhile, Mr. Wallace called the Westminster Police and reported the theft. The District Attorney charged him with twelve felony counts, including four counts of Attempted First Degree Murder.

Meanwhile, the thieves admitted their crime, but were not charge. Several weeks later, ICE picked them both up, except for the one who was still in the Hospital. The driver (uninjured) presented a "valid" Colorado Driver License, issued in 1995, when the felon was 18. He also used an antiSocial inSecurity car, issued in Washington in 1968 (Warning! math alert!).

A local radio announcer (whose friend was murdered by an illegal alien against whom no charges have been filed), has taken this by the horns. He and his producer found out to whom the aSiS card was issued, and called him in California. The man, a Mr. ****inson, answered the producer's call and hung up telling him. "I'm not interested." When Peter Boyles called, on air, ****inson said, "Find your story somewhere else," when Boyles told him that his aSiS number had been used in a felony. A second call, still on air, got his answering machine, in Spanish and English. A third attempt clarified the ****enson was still very unhappy about the publicity.

It turns out that ****inson's aSiS number is being used by two others, the Colorado felon, ****enson, and someone else, at least.

The local CoP, DA, and his PIO are all on record as saying that there is no reason to suspect that the two illegals' identification (although only one had any) was suspect, nor that their immigration status (they neither speak English) was in question.

The old man is facing life in prison, the loss of all of his property (to pay the hospital bills for the alien), and a stressful trial (probably with a public "defender" for a lawyer, although there is talk of a legal defense fund).

The aliens, nothing. They were not arrested in spite of their admission of a felony. They were not detained for ICE, that happened only after the radio shows started putting pressure on the law enforcement community.

Now, the question before the house today is what is the consequence of having a stolen antiSocial inSecurity card/number? It can be horrendous. however, it appears that ****enson could be part of a ring of such identity thieves. We know of three people who are using the same card.

A called to the show told of his own experience where the IRS claimed he owed $35,000 in taxes because someone in a distant state was using his number.

The numbers of people affected by this is would be incomprehensible. Congress just passed so-called Financial Reform Bill. They would much better have spent their time crafting and passing legislation making identity theft a capital crime, because, from my experience with debt-elimination, such theft is, in many respects worse than murder.

"Innocent" illegal aliens destroy the lives of people they have never met by taking their aSiS numbers. "Innocent" illegal aliens impoverish local governments, and distort economies. Not-so-innocent illegal aliens have killed, raped, robbed, crippled, and otherwise harmed thousands of other people (including other illegal aliens) in just this past year. Yes, they may be Heavenly Father's children, but so were Idi Amin and Al Capone. That is no reason to turn our collective backs on the harm they do.

Lehi

Lehi I am adamant that something should be done about illegal immigration. If we don't serious consequences are in store for us and even more stories like you have presented will happen to even more of us. That said how will denying baptism into the church help? It seems to me the more we convert the less there are to do those things. It just hasn't been demonstrated to me that the ones asking for baptism are the ones comitting these acts. AAlma the younger recognized this when he resigned his position of chief judge to go out among the people and preach the gospel.

I just don't see how making bishops into enforcement agents for the government is going to help. Maybe I'm dense but ?? but well I just think that if we convert them then work with them we will accomplish a lot more. As I have said I think we could deny baptism to all but legals and it would have no effect on the problems you illustrate so well.

The dogmatic legalism of those that declare that an undocumented person has no right to baptism, that they must become worthy to be accepted bothers me. I see these same people disregarding trafic laws every day. If their stance is that everyone who breaks a civil law is unworthy then they themselves should turn in their temple recommends.

As long as government leaders do nothing to close the borders and solve the problem it will be a problem.

[semlogo]

Realy, so they cross the boarder and steal some one elses SS?

No, they steal them to make fraudulent purchases, open up new lines of credit for themselves to use until maxed out, etc.

[semlogo]

They may or may not. Let me ask my father-in-law. He is the head painter for a hotel chain. He says that he always gets his painters that are hispanic that work for him for a while and then they get deported and come back to work for him in a few months with a new name and new SS.

I am sure some of them are LDS. If I can confirm that some of these hispanic workers that get deported and come back to work are LDS would that be sufficent for you?

However I never did make the claim that "the ones stealing SS" are being baptized into the church. I have no idea. Are there a few? Probably. Is it wide spread? I doubt it. But what if it was, would that matter to you or anyone else here?

Pretty important, since the subject of the thread is LDS illegal immigrants.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

They don't cross the border, but they do steal SS#'s and identity. There's a lot of easy money to be made in ID theft schemes, and the desire to commit that kind of fraud transcends national origin. That being said, the problem of ID theft amongst illegal immigrants is substantial. Here are some stats - Link.

My bad, I took natural born to mean babies. Don't ask me how I read that into his comments.

Yes many people commit ID theft, so what.

[ttribe]

Lehi I am adamant that something should be done about illegal immigration. If we don't serious consequences are in store for us and even more stories like you have presented will happen to even more of us. That said how will denying baptism into the church help? It seems to me the more we convert the less there are to do those things. It just hasn't been demonstrated to me that the ones asking for baptism are the ones comitting these acts. AAlma the younger recognized this when he resigned his position of chief judge to go out among the people and preach the gospel.

I just don't see how making bishops into enforcement agents for the government is going to help. Maybe I'm dense but ?? but well I just think that if we convert them then work with them we will accomplish a lot more. As I have said I think we could deny baptism to all but legals and it would have no effect on the problems you illustrate so well.

The dogmatic legalism of those that declare that an undocumented person has no right to baptism, that they must become worthy to be accepted bothers me. I see these same people disregarding trafic laws every day. If their stance is that everyone who breaks a civil law is unworthy then they themselves should turn in their temple recommends.

As long as government leaders do nothing to close the borders and solve the problem it will be a problem.

Agreed.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Pretty important, since the subject of the thread is LDS illegal immigrants.

To which part? People who are already LDS and stealling SS or those that are stealling SS and then being baptised?

[ttribe]

My bad, I took natural born to mean babies. Don't ask me how I read that into his comments.

Yes many people commit ID theft, so what.

I think he was just trying to point out that ID theft is not uniquely endemic to the population of illegal immigrants.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I think he was just trying to point out that ID theft is not uniquely endemic to the population of illegal immigrants.

I totally agree with that.

[semlogo]

They don't cross the border, but they do steal SS#'s and identity. There's a lot of easy money to be made in ID theft schemes, and the desire to commit that kind of fraud transcends national origin. That being said, the problem of ID theft amongst illegal immigrants is substantial. Here are some stats - Link.

FYI:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Immigration_Studies#Southern_Poverty_Law_Center

The Southern Poverty Law Center's report reads:

FAIR, CIS and NumbersUSA are all part of a network of restrictionist organizations conceived and created by John Tanton, the

[semlogo]

To which part? People who are already LDS and stealling SS or those that are stealling SS and then being baptised?

Pretty important to any kind of argument you wish to make, considering the topic of this thread.