What is a Seer?

[CV75]

Prophecy is, by definition, the foretelling of future events.

No so. Prediction is only one small manifestation of prophecy. The word comes from the Greek word propheteia, which literally means "to speak forth" (pro, "forth"; phemi, "to speak"). Now this "forth" may be construed to mean "beforehand" but it is more accurately understood to mean "forth" as in "speaking forth" or "proclaiming." But that is irrelevant to your question, because you are looking for a prediction that meets certain criteria. Or perhaps an example of modern seership.

[CV75]

I am not sure I understand your last sentence. Even if you wrote the above, that's already been predicted 2,000 years ago by Jesus Himself.

This was a paraphrasing of D&C 130:12-13, and the date 12/21/2012 is a salute to false pop-prophecies about the last day of the world as we know it (Mayan Calendar, Nostradamus, etc.)

This paraphrasing was tongue-in-cheek, meant to demonstrate what a modern prediction might look like on the narrow terms you have allowed for your exploration of this issue. Using this narrow definition, as you say, only shows that such a prediction was already made 2,000 years ago. And if that is the case, Joseph's Smith's prediction, according to your evaluation of the paraphrase, must have as much validity as the phony paraphrase. Indicating that no prediction is believable until it is fulfilled.

So, the examples of future-oriented prophecies that have been given throughout this thread cannot be believed by the unbelieving until they are fulfilled. And they will never be fulfilled until they are first believed in!

[erichard]

...Or maybe I am just looking in the wrong places.

...

Hi,

The dreams of John Koyle are probably not the same as a gift of being a seer, but Koyle did give many, many SPECIFIC predictions that did come to pass. And many that have yet to come to pass. This Yahoo group looks for fulfillment of his predictions:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The-Dream-Mine/messages

John Koyle was an active member of the LDS church most of his life. His excommunication when he was 80 years old was a sham many of us believe.

This book by Kraut is the best history I know of of "Bishop Koyle":

http://www.freeread.com/archives/1802.php

Here is a site one of my friends has on Koyle:

http://www.reliefmine.org/

Richard

[O-Brother]

Hi,

The dreams of John Koyle are probably not the same as a gift of being a seer, but Koyle did give many, many SPECIFIC predictions that did come to pass. And many that have yet to come to pass. This Yahoo group looks for fulfillment of his predictions:

http://groups.yahoo....m-Mine/messages

John Koyle was an active member of the LDS church most of his life. His excommunication when he was 80 years old was a sham many of us believe.

This book by Kraut is the best history I know of of "Bishop Koyle":

http://www.freeread....chives/1802.php

Here is a site one of my friends has on Koyle:

http://www.reliefmine.org/

Richard

Why was he excommunicated? I guess I can stop being lazy and go read it on the sites you mentioned above. I didn't even know such man existed. Let me get my knowledge sponge wet. Thank you for posting this. Can't wait to read it.

[erichard]

Why was he excommunicated? I guess I can stop being lazy and go read it on the sites you mentioned above. I didn't even know such man existed. Let me get my knowledge sponge wet. Thank you for posting this. Can't wait to read it.

Hi O-Brother,

Koyle may have been exed because church leaders felt threatened by how many people believed in his gift. Some people say he was back in the church before he died. I am not sure if that is true. I have no reason to think he ever denied his gift.

Attached is a photo of Koyle and his family when he was young.

Also attached is a photo that I took one day in 1987 or 88. I was in another person's car, and I yelled, "Stop". I got out and took this picture. In it a rainbow ends on the Koyle Relief Mine.

Richard

[O-Brother]

Hi O-Brother,

Koyle may have been exed because church leaders felt threatened by how many people believed in his gift. Some people say he was back in the church before he died. I am not sure if that is true. I have no reason to think he ever denied his gift.

Attached is a photo of Koyle and his family when he was young.

Also attached is a photo that I took one day in 1987 or 88. I was in another person's car, and I yelled, "Stop". I got out and took this picture. In it a rainbow ends on the Koyle Relief Mine.

Richard

Do you have a list of at least 3 prophecies from this man that came to pass? I don't believe Church leaders would excommunicate a man because he has the spirit of prophecy. That's part of our doctrine, isn't it?

[William Schryver]

This is a spin-off of a current thread.

This thread seeks to understand what a "seer" is, and why we don't seem to have any left in the LDS Church.

There are many seers in the Church of Jesus Christ. "Prophet, Seer, and Revelator" is a specific title for one class of seer. But there are untold numbers of Saints with the gifts of a seer. They are greatly valued by those who recognize their gift and seek counsel at their hand.

Or maybe I am just looking in the wrong places.

Apparently so.

I guarantee you won't find any in The Great and Spacious Trailer Park.

[O-Brother]

There are many seers in the Church of Jesus Christ. "Prophet, Seer, and Revelator" is a specific title for one class of seer. But there are untold numbers of Saints with the gifts of a seer. They are greatly valued by those who recognize their gift and seek counsel at their hand.

Apparently so.

Was Bishop Koyle one of them? I am still trying to get more information on this man and find out why he was excommunicated. I have not been a member all my life so there is a lot I still don't know. I want to know what prophecies this man made, when, whether they came to pass and why he was ex'ed.

P.S.: OK> I have read his story. I can't believe it's true as told. No way. Who in their sound mind would get a sick 84-year-old to sign an admission of guilt, promise him a meeting with the President of the Church, publish a document without permission, promise no excommunication and excommunicate him anyway? Something is wrong here.

I can't believe the story. That's ridiculous if it's true. I am now looking for his prophecies to see if this guy was for real.

Found on the site about John Koyle:

P.S.S.: OK> - "Perhaps it may make some of you stumble , were I to ask you a question, does a man being a Prophet in this church prove that he shall be the President of it? I answer no! A man may be a prophet, seer, and revelator, and it may have nothing to do with his being the President of the church. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 1:333)

Dang, now I see why some people dislike Brigham Young. Makes sense. OK. I have read a lot about John Koyle and have drawn some preliminary conclusions. Thanks for bringing his name up for this topic. What a story! I am now trying to find out if this man was 1. An honest man. 2. How he ended up being ex'ed and 3. Why. The story as presented - one sided - is very sad. I would love to see the other side of the story in defense of his excommunication. There are some wild claims[?] about him pulling the Church of out of debt to the tune of $1M. The Church I know would never excommunicate a man like that unless there is a lot more to the story. At any rate, very interesting to read. I learned something new today. If the mine is still in existence, I'd like to visit it someday.

[Mortal Man]

This thread seeks to understand what a "seer" is, and why we don't seem to have any left in the LDS Church.

I've been reading through Charlotte Haven's letters from Nauvoo, which Chris Smith recently sent me. I thought this excerpt was relevant to this thread.

"It is said that Joseph read the golden plates by looking through the Peep Stone. Now he pretends not to believe in the Peep Stone, although many of his followers undoubtedly do. The stone is in the possession of a high church dignitary, and has the power of seeing and reading things without the use of eyes - a sort of clairvoyant. I am told that many of the English and Scotch, when becoming anxious about their friends across the ocean, with implicit faith consult the Peep Stone, which not only tells them of their friends' health, but what they are doing at the time." -- Charlotte Haven's letter from Nauvoo to her "dear home friends." May 2, 1843.

[nicolasconnault]

I've been reading through Charlotte Haven's letters from Nauvoo, which Chris Smith recently sent me. I thought this excerpt was relevant to this thread.

"It is said that Joseph read the golden plates by looking through the Peep Stone. Now he pretends not to believe in the Peep Stone, although many of his followers undoubtedly do. The stone is in the possession of a high church dignitary, and has the power of seeing and reading things without the use of eyes - a sort of clairvoyant. I am told that many of the English and Scotch, when becoming anxious about their friends across the ocean, with implicit faith consult the Peep Stone, which not only tells them of their friends' health, but what they are doing at the time." -- Charlotte Haven's letter from Nauvoo to her "dear home friends." May 2, 1843.

Sounds more like a webcam than a stone to me...

[cinepro]

Just came across this quote, which I thought might be pertinent:

Thirdly, we sustain 15 men not only as prophets and revelators but as seers also. The presence of seers among us is not much spoken of, yet the ability to see beyond the present lends power and authority to apostolic testimony and teaching. I refer to two scriptures that speak of this important and unique calling. Ammon teaches King Limhi in the Book of Mormon that

[consiglieri]

To the question of what our modern seers are making known that otherwise could not be known and what they are seeing that is not visible to the natural eye, I make a very simple response.

If it were really a simple response, wouldn't one example suffice?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Hamba Tuhan]

If it were really a simple response, wouldn't one example suffice?

Maybe my one example bears repeating? In the 1970s, the seers counselled the American Saints to campaign against the ERA, not because they were opposed to equal rights for women, but because such language in the US Constitution would have made it legally impossible to oppose same-sex marriage 30+ years later--something they had seen afar off.

[CV75]

Maybe my one example bears repeating? In the 1970s, the seers counselled the American Saints to campaign against the ERA, not because they were opposed to equal rights for women, but because such language in the US Constitution would have made it legally impossible to oppose same-sex marriage 30+ years later--something they had seen afar off.

This is similar to President Hinckley's experiences with innovative temple designs--seeing designs that no one else ever saw before. Note how, even though he was acting as a seer, those who had to carry it out had their struggles with it because they had never done such a thing before. It kept them from succeeding until they caught on / caught the vision.

Hong Kong/multi-story, multi-use temples: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=46fb49f833f3f010VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1

Mexico/Small temples: http://www.ldsmag.com/churchupdate/050311presHinckley.html (subheadings The "Small Temples", The Challenge of the Prophet)

[cinepro]

This is similar to President Hinckley's experiences with innovative temple designs--seeing designs that no one else ever saw before. Note how, even though he was acting as a seer, those who had to carry it out had their struggles with it because they had never done such a thing before. It kept them from succeeding until they caught on / caught the vision.

Hong Kong/multi-story, multi-use temples: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=46fb49f833f3f010VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1

Mexico/Small temples: http://www.ldsmag.com/churchupdate/050311presHinckley.html (subheadings The "Small Temples", The Challenge of the Prophet)

Sadly, David O. McKay's idea of a "Temple Cruise Ship" that could travel the world never came to fruition.

[CV75]

Sadly, David O. McKay's idea of a "Temple Cruise Ship" that could travel the world never came to fruition.

Well, the problem with that was it was the product of high-level brain-storming discussions and lacked the gravitas of the "seer" process. Not that there's anything wrong with "floating" an idea.

[dblagent007]

When it comes to "seeing" and revelation, I think the RLDS (Community of Christ) have us beat hands down. Our guys just don't seem to "see" or "reveal" much. On the other hand, the Community of Christ seems to actually receive revelation on a regular basis.

Revelations added to the D&C by the leaders of the Community of Christ.

• [*]Sections 114

[nicolasconnault]

When it comes to "seeing" and revelation, I think the RLDS (Community of Christ) have us beat hands down. Our guys just don't seem to "see" or "reveal" much. On the other hand, the Community of Christ seems to actually receive revelation on a regular basis.

Revelations added to the D&C by the leaders of the Community of Christ.

• [*]Sections 114

[Ceeboo]

Several pages of thread and:

Y2K ??

Prop 8 warnings ??

Politics ??

Counsel ??

I love ya'll crazy Mormons BUT whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat ????

Peace,

Ceeboo

[nicolasconnault]

Several pages of thread and:

Y2K ??

Prop 8 warnings ??

Politics ??

Counsel ??

I love ya'll crazy Mormons BUT whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat ????

Peace,

Ceeboo

Everyone seems to be missing the "local prophecies" I have mentioned several times. I guess you all think you deserve a special world-wide announcement for every prophecy, even if it has nothing to do with you...

[O-Brother]

They publish new revelations. It doesn't mean they receive them from a divine source.

And how do we determine that in view of Joel 2: 28?

Joel 2:28 (King James Version)

" 28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions"

In other words, how do we establish where revelations and predictions come from and how do we know for certain that they are not of divine source? Why couldn't the FRLDS receive revelations just like anyone else since Joel 2:28 says "that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh" He doesn't say upon certain flesh but ALL.

How do you explain that?

[O-Brother]

Everyone seems to be missing the "local prophecies" I have mentioned several times. I guess you all think you deserve a special world-wide announcement for every prophecy, even if it has nothing to do with you...

Is it possible that the misunderstanding is on your part? Just askin'. I think you're mistaking revelations for self versus revelations for the body of the Church -which is what our Prophets have done and revelations and prophecies for the entire world, which is what Prophets have done, ours included but not exclusively so.

[nicolasconnault]

Is it possible that the misunderstanding is on your part? Just askin'. I think you're mistaking revelations for self versus revelations for the body of the Church -which is what our Prophets have done and revelations and prophecies for the entire world, which is what Prophets have done, ours included but not exclusively so.

Let me bounce the misunderstanding back to you I was not referring to revelation to myself, but to the 15 seers and apostles, for specific areas of the world. Why would they reveal this to the body of the Church? I have given examples of such prophecies to which I have been a witness, but people here, including you, seem to have missed these posts.

[nicolasconnault]

And how do we determine that in view of Joel 2: 28?

Joel 2:28 (King James Version)

" 28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions"

In other words, how do we establish where revelations and predictions come from and how do we know for certain that they are not of divine source? Why couldn't the FRLDS receive revelations just like anyone else since Joel 2:28 says "that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh" He doesn't say upon certain flesh but ALL.

How do you explain that?

Yes the Spirit may be given to all flesh, and they may receive prophecies for themselves. But they do not have any more authority than I do to receive revelations and prophecies for anyone else than themselves and their family, let alone an entire Church.

[O-Brother]

Yes the Spirit may be given to all flesh, and they may receive prophecies for themselves. But they do not have any more authority than I do to receive revelations and prophecies for anyone else than themselves and their family, let alone an entire Church.

OK. Bye.