What is a Seer?

[Senator]

SEER:

1. a person who sees; observer.

2. a person who prophesies future events; prophet: Industry seers predicted higher profits.

3. a person endowed with profound moral and spiritual insight or knowledge; a wise person or sage who possesses intuitive powers.

4. a person who is reputed to have special powers of divination, as a crystal gazer or palmist.

Or, simply #1

Do you not think the top leadership of the church does not use the advice of various consultants and advisors, specialists in their respective fields, with which to compose much of the operational guidance they employ?

[Ceeboo]

That's called counsel, not prophecy, revelation of seeing into the future. You don't need to be LDS to know about debt, health and other issues. Other religions have been warning their flocks about debt, living within their means, etc. In fact, I got the Watch Tower Magazine the other day with similar advice. A JW friend sent it to me.

Indeed !!!

Out of respect, I have not posted that reply to the many many posts I have seen in similar form.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[O-Brother]

Or it's on-going but is being relayed to the ecclesiastical leaders (ie Stake Presidents) to prepare their people or it's being relayed to the general membership in the form of Conference talks which warn us about debt and to get our spiritual lives in order, etc.

That's called counsel, not prophecy or seeing into the future. You don't need to be LDS to know about debt, health and other issues. Other religions have been warning their flocks about debt, living within their means, etc. In fact, I got the Watch Tower Magazine the other day with similar advice. A JW friend sent it to me.

[O-Brother]

Indeed !!!

Out of respect, I have not posted that reply to the many many posts I have seen in similar form.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Ceeboo]

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Senator]

HA!

Well done!

[Lightbearer]

This is a spin-off of a current thread.

This thread seeks to understand what a "seer" is, and why we don't seem to have any left in the LDS Church.

Or maybe I am just looking in the wrong places.

To get started, I think a "seer" is one who "sees" things not normally visible to others, and in the LDS context, one who "sees" these otherwise invisible things through a spiritual gift.

Any takers?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

The definition of a "seer" is given here:

(Mosiah 8:16-18) "And Ammon said that a seer is a revelator and a prophet also; and a gift which is greater can no man have, except he should possess the power of God, which no man can; yet a man may have great power given him from God. But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known. Thus God has provided a means that man, through faith, might work mighty miracles; therefore he becometh a great benefit to his fellow beings."

And as Cinepro so correctly pointed out, we have 15 "prophets, seers, and revelators" in the Church which we regularly sustain every General Conference. Although all have this calling only one, the current President of the Church, the Prophet has the right to exercise this gift for the entire Church. We are constantly given instruction from this seer in the form of Conferences, First Presidency messages, letters (epistles) and through the approved manuals (sorry could not resist that one). In addition our local leaders are given messages to pass on to the Saints from time to time. So what exactly are you seeking? A burning bush perhaps? Or additions to the Standard Works? Perhaps you think we are only hearing "spiritual pablum"? There could be a reason for that, perhaps the following applies:

(Alma 12:9-11) "And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him. And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full. And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell."

I am wondering why you ask the question, seeing that you should know these verses as well as I do.

[O-Brother]

Or, simply #1

Do you not think the top leadership of the church does not use the advice of various consultants and advisors, specialists in their respective fields, with which to compose much of the operational guidance they employ?

Yes, they do employ "professionals" in various consulting capacities but so do other businesses and corporations. Not sure how that relates to prophecy but I can see how it relates to business decisions or maybe feedback, marketing direction, etc. Prop 8 comes to mind.

[consiglieri]

Of course.

For that matter, Wilford Woodruff clearly saw what would happen if he hadn't created the manifesto.

Do you make a distinction between spiritual seership and political calculation?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Ceeboo]

Do you make a distinction between spiritual seership and political calculation?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

This board is simply hilarious today !!!!!!!

Peace,

Ceeboo

[nicolasconnault]

That's called counsel, not prophecy, revelation of seeing into the future. You don't need to be LDS to know about debt, health and other issues. Other religions have been warning their flocks about debt, living within their means, etc. In fact, I got the Watch Tower Magazine the other day with similar advice. A JW friend sent it to me.

O-Brother, I think you are missing the point. I remember reading a passage from "Faith Precedes the Miracle" in which Pdt Kimbal answers exactly this question. I don't have the book anymore, so I can't quote from it, but I found this article, which I think gives almost as good an answer.

I simply quote these little snippets from it, although the entire article is well worth reading:

In our day, as in times past, many people expect that if there be revelation it will come with awe-inspiring, earth-shaking display. For many it is hard to accept as revelation those numerous ones in Moses

[O-Brother]

Hi again Bro,

Thanks for the gracious reply.

To be clear,

I was NOT judging nor putting you on the spot ( Hope you didn't feel I was )

Obvioulsy ( being Catholic ) I do not share the same beliefs as you but this is one of the most puzzling things to me as an " outside " observer.

Considering the 3 plus years I have " shared " with many many beutiful LDS folks, I remain completly puzzled on this. ( Perhaps I will never REALLY get it directly because I do not " believe ")

Thanks again for the kind manner you replied.

Peace,

Ceeboo

Digital bytes don't bite me, Ceeboo. No worries. As a convert, I can tell you this: if you tell non-Mormons that you have a Prophet, Seer and Revelator(s), the natural reaction from most curious people would be: what's gonna happen in 2012? or 2022. What are the predictions for the future? How big will the Church be in 2040? Some members might wonder, where are the Three Nephites today? Is the anti_Christ already here? When will Revelations start to take place? Where will the next earthquake hit? On the other hand, divinations can also be of the Devil.

So, a Prophet walks a fine line so to speak. The problem with prophecy is that it can be dangerous, it can unite but it can also alienate and divide people both within and outside Churches. It can also affect other religions, even governments and countries. It can turn the media against us or destroy years for good P.R. That's why I posted earlier that it's safer and wiser to focus on generally accepted topics or ethics, morals, spirituality, temporal affairs, etc. Things that people can relate to without fear.

If the Prophet came out and said something like:"People of Zion, in 2011 a Big Earthquake will hit Utah to call people unto repentance and to abandon their evils ways..." Obviously, there would be a lot of mocking. It would be worse if the prophecy didn't come to pass at all. If the prophecy affects U.S. and world leaders, you can imagine the dangers involved in times like this. So, sometimes I think spiritual leaders have to consider the consequences of what they foretell and carefully watch what they say.

I know that scriptures state the following:

Joel 2:28 - "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions..."

Which means that in order to avoid serious antagonism, the Lord might leave the prophesying in the hands of the faithful of ALL religions instead of depending on the Seer, Revelator and Prophet. Of course, this also poses a theological dissonance since "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." Amos 3:7

Notice it says "prophets" plural.

I'm as intrigued as you. What has the Pope revealed lately? Same thing. It's hard to tell.

[nicolasconnault]

Which means that in order to avoid serious antagonism, the Lord might leave the prophesying in the hands of the faithful of ALL religions instead of depending on the Seer, Revelator and Prophet. Of course, this also poses a theological dissonance since "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." Amos 3:7

Notice it says "prophets" plural.

I'm as intrigued as you. What has the Pope revealed lately? Same thing. It's hard to tell.

You have a very short stand point from which to "see" how global decisions would affect the entire world. Included in the gift of prophecy is the gift to know how the publication of prophecies would affect the masses, how they would be received and what the global consequences would be. Don't forget to take that into account.

BTW I hope you have read my previous post.

[consiglieri]

That is totally awesome!

If I had my druthers and weren't so wedded to the manual, I would go into Sunday School and tell the class we are going to do something they used to do in the School of the Prophets--we are going to spend the class time exercising ourselves in the gift of prophecy.

Just seeing the look on their faces would be worth it.

And who knows what might happen?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[O-Brother]

O-Brother, I think you are missing the point. I remember reading a passage from "Faith Precedes the Miracle" in which Pdt Kimbal answers exactly this question. I don't have the book anymore, so I can't quote from it, but I found this article, which I think gives almost as good an answer.

I simply quote these little snippets from it, although the entire article is well worth reading:

Good research and great information. Thank you for taking the time to do that. Your cortex is in higher gear. Let me ask you this: Is the Lord's Prophet a Prophet for this Church and its affairs only or the Prophet for the entire world or all of God's offspring?

Next, as far as administrative revelations that affect the affairs of the Church... How do these revelations affect the affairs of all God's children, including non-Mormons?

Finally, I disagree that people expect earth-shattering prophecies and revelations. Just prophecies and revelations. No burning bush. No alignment of planets or big signs necessary.

[O-Brother]

You have a very short stand point from which to "see" how global decisions would affect the entire world. Included in the gift of prophecy is the gift to know how the publication of prophecies would affect the masses, how they would be received and what the global consequences would be. Don't forget to take that into account.

BTW I hope you have read my previous post.

Actually I have a long stand point on this. See my previous posts where I touch the very thing you mention above.

[nicolasconnault]

Good research and great information. Thank you for taking the time to do that. Your cortex is in higher gear. Let me ask you this: Is the Lord's Prophet a Prophet for this Church and its affairs only or the Prophet for the entire world or all of God's offspring?

He is the prophet for the entire world. However, he is also aware of how likely his pronouncements to the world are likely to be received. He will not cast pearls before the swine, so to speak. However, The proclamation to the World is a great example of a prophetic statement to the world. Don't forget that seership and prophecy aren't just concerned with the far-distant future, although that is obviously more spectacular and pleasing to the sign-seeking mind.

Next, as far as administrative revelations that affect the affairs of the Church... How do these revelations affect the affairs of all God's children, including non-Mormons?

Two examples: the missionary program, which requires continuing, ongoing revelation (think of "Preach my Gospel" for example), and the welfare program, which also requires continuing revelation. There are many other examples. In fact, the membership of the Church at large benefits from continuing revelation, and in turn are to be the main means by which non-Mormons are reached and blessed.

Finally, I disagree that people expect earth-shattering prophecies and revelations. Just prophecies and revelations. No burning bush. No alignment of planets or big signs necessary.

Then if you are satisfied with "just prophecies and revelations", I assume that you will search the general conference talks, peruse the church news and observe how changes in Church administration happen. I see plenty of evidence of revelation, prophecy and seership. I suppose it depends partly on how you look at it.

[CV75]

This thread seeks to understand what a "seer" is, and why we don't seem to have any left in the LDS Church.

First: what a Seer is:

2 Ne 3: 7-11: he shall do a work ...which shall be of great worth

[O-Brother]

He is the prophet for the entire world. However, he is also aware of how likely his pronouncements to the world are likely to be received. He will not cast pearls before the swine, so to speak. However, The proclamation to the World is a great example of a prophetic statement to the world. Don't forget that seership and prophecy aren't just concerned with the far-distant future, although that is obviously more spectacular and pleasing to the sign-seeking mind.

Two examples: the missionary program, which requires continuing, ongoing revelation (think of "Preach my Gospel" for example), and the welfare program, which also requires continuing revelation. There are many other examples. In fact, the membership of the Church at large benefits from continuing revelation, and in turn are to be the main means by which non-Mormons are reached and blessed.

Then if you are satisfied with "just prophecies and revelations", I assume that you will search the general conference talks, peruse the church news and observe how changes in Church administration happen. I see plenty of evidence of revelation, prophecy and seership. I suppose it depends partly on how you look at it.

Well thought out response. But affirmations and counsel are not prophecies, brother. Let me ask you this: what specific prophecy or prophecies did you gather from last General Conference? Administrative changes, policies and growth plans aren't prophecies.

[CV75]

Well thought out response. But affirmations and counsel are not prophecies, brother. Let me ask you this: what specific prophecy or prophecies did you gather from last General Conference? Administrative changes, policies and growth plans aren't prophecies.

Sorry for butting in, but prophecy is "Inspired words of a prophet about a future event"--this goes on in general Conference. All the talks are geared toward the future event of our resurrection, judgment, exaltation, and the Second Coming. Prophecy is also "inspired words of a prophet," period, including the testimony of Jesus, which also are uttered constantly during General Conference (Revelations 19:10 and even better, Alma 6:8 ).

[nicolasconnault]

Well thought out response. But affirmations and counsel are not prophecies, brother. Let me ask you this: what specific prophecy or prophecies did you gather from last General Conference? Administrative changes, policies and growth plans aren't prophecies.

How are administrative decisions just "affirmations and counsel"?? Wouldn't you need prophecy and revelation to call a new apostle or 70, to decide where to build a new temple or how to respond to global crisis?

I was hasty in mentioning general conference. That is not usually the place where prophecies are most manifest. I would instead encourage you to attend the upcoming leadership broadcast in November, where a new Church Handbook of instructions will be officially announced (see my other thread on this topic)

[Sevenbak]

As has already been stated, a seer in it's literal meaning is greater than a prophet. I believe that to be a very specific and special gift of the spirit, not common, even among prophets. JMHO

Joseph in Egypt was one of these rare seers, as described by Nephi. Orson Pratt agrees with my take that his diving cup was in all actuality a Urim and Thummim. (Gen. 44: 5,15)

[nicolasconnault]

O-Brother, it seems that you expect the prophet to regularly publish some prophetic statement about the future, just so that if someone asks you what the prophet said last, you have a ready, easy answer. That's not how it works, though. There are higher, better reasons why prophecies are received and given. For example, prophecies are given when past prophecies are heeded. If the Church as a whole fails to adequately respond to past prophecies, why would the Lord bless them with more?

The Church is not Disney Studio. It won't respond to public demand by pumping out yearly, sub-par excuses for prophecies/movies. Prophecies actually answer real needs, which are often localised, and rarely need to be trumpeted out with "THUS SAITH THE LORD!".

[zerinus]

So far, the answer appears to be nothing.

And we've got 15 of them!

Not an impressive track record . . .

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I am not sure what your question is, or what kind of answer you are expecting.

[O-Brother]

Sorry for butting in, but prophecy is "Inspired words of a prophet about a future event"--this goes on in general Conference. All the talks are geared toward the future event of our resurrection, judgment, exaltation, and the Second Coming. Prophecy is also "inspired words of a prophet," period, including the testimony of Jesus, which also are uttered constantly during General Conference (Revelations 19:10 and even better, Alma 6:8 ).

That would make mega Churches and other Christian religions prophetic as well. Besides, the resurrection, judgment, exaltation aren't NEW Prophecies. They date back to the Bible. What scripture shows that inspired words are prophecies? OK. Let's examine Alma 6:8

Alma 6:8

And Alma went and began to declare the word of God unto the church which was established in the valley of Gideon, according to the revelation of the truth of the word which had been spoken by his fathers, and according to the spirit of prophecy which was in him, according to the testimony of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who should come to redeem his people from their sins, and the holy order by which he was called. And thus it is written. Amen.

OK. That was Alma. How does that translate into new prophecies during General Conference today? Which specific new prophecy or prophecies did you gather from the last 6 conferences. Please name one.