What is a Seer?

[O-Brother]

O-Brother, it seems that you expect the prophet to regularly publish some prophetic statement about the future, just so that if someone asks you what the prophet said last, you have a ready, easy answer. That's not how it works, though. There are higher, better reasons why prophecies are received and given. For example, prophecies are given when past prophecies are heeded. If the Church as a whole fails to adequately respond to past prophecies, why would the Lord bless them with more?

The Church is not Disney Studio. It won't respond to public demand by pumping out yearly, sub-par excuses for prophecies/movies. Prophecies actually answer real needs, which are often localised, and rarely need to be trumpeted out with "THUS SAITH THE LORD!".

Actually, I don't have any expectations, just analyzing a concept here. OK, let's go along with what you're saying and I think what you're saying does have a level of support from the dictionary, as follows:

{PROPHECY}

1. the foretelling or prediction of what is to come.

2. something that is declared by a prophet, esp. a divinely inspired prediction, instruction, or exhortation.

3. a divinely inspired utterance or revelation: oracular prophecies.

4. the action, function, or faculty of a prophet.

Now, if we look at #3, I must agree with you that GC provides plenty of inspired utterances which are not unique to the world or to the LDS Church as most counsels heard from the pulpit are also found in other churches as well. What's unique are ordinances and ceremonies, leadership, temples, etc. But if we examine the deeper meaning of prophecy we cannot ignore #1 above which involves foretelling OR

prediction of what's to come.

So now I ask you and I hope you can be specific and not go off on a tangent: Which specific prophecy from GC meets the definition of #1 above? Let's go back 10 years. Maybe even 20 to be fair. Name one.

Thanks.

[zerinus]

That is totally awesome!

If I had my druthers and weren't so wedded to the manual, I would go into Sunday School and tell the class we are going to do something they used to do in the School of the Prophets--we are going to spend the class time exercising ourselves in the gift of prophecy.

That is what I do when I teach a Gospel Doctrine class---with the help of the manual.

Just seeing the look on their faces would be worth it.

And who knows what might happen?

If you did, I hope you would set the example for the rest of the class by being the first to prophesy!

[O-Brother]

How are administrative decisions just "affirmations and counsel"?? Wouldn't you need prophecy and revelation to call a new apostle or 70, to decide where to build a new temple or how to respond to global crisis?

I was hasty in mentioning general conference. That is not usually the place where prophecies are most manifest. I would instead encourage you to attend the upcoming leadership broadcast in November, where a new Church Handbook of instructions will be officially announced (see my other thread on this topic)

To answer your question, a "calling" is not prophecy. But I agree with you that it is a revelation directly connected with inspiration. If you call it a prophecy, you open a can of worms. Why? George P. Lee was a General Authority. He was called but not chosen. He wasn't prophesied. There was no scripture that said his name would be among the 70. He was excommunicated. Responding to a global crisis and building new temples? Masons build new temples and have inspiration on dealing with a global crisis. That's is NOT prophecy. The Catholic Church builds new Churches and responds to crisis.

I am sure you're very familiar with D&C 130. Here's an example of a prophecy:

12 I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the adifficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.

OK. Now let's go back to general conference and I want you to show me one instance where the line above has been uttered in the last 10-20 years. Even 30.

[O-Brother]

First: what a Seer is:

Mosiah 8:15:13-18: ...he has wherewith (the interpreters) that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. ...the same is called seer. ...a seer is greater than a prophet. ...a seer is a revelator and a prophet also... a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known. Thus God has provided a means that man, through faith, might work mighty miracles; therefore he becometh a great benefit to his fellow beings.

Second: why we don't seem to have any left in the LDS Church:

Who said so, and why?

Good scripture. Good find. Good question. Any answers?

[CV75]

That would make mega Churches and other Christian religions prophetic as well. Besides, the resurrection, judgment, exaltation aren't NEW Prophecies. They date back to the Bible. What scripture shows that inspired words are prophecies? OK. Let's examine Alma 6:8

Alma 6:8

OK. That was Alma. How does that translate into new prophecies during General Conference today? Which specific new prophecy or prophecies did you gather from the last 6 conferences. Please name one.

The definition of prophecy neither adds nor takes away from other churches. Their leaders' statements are inspired by God to the degree they are able to receive a fulness of the light He offers them. Their ability and practice to prophesy takes nothing away from our Church's leaders' ability and practice.

We certainly hear our prophets, seers and revelators 1 ) declare the word of God; 2 ) do so by the scriptures ("according to the revelation of the truth of the word which had been spoken by [the] fathers"; and, 3 ) according to the spirit of prophecy ["according to the testimony of Jesus"] which is in them, all eh time, not just in General Conference. Many of these declarations are future-event oriented, even in such mundane teachings as, "I shall give you rest." Remember what the new and everlasting covenant is all about, and our responsibility to recognize the voice of the Spirit when He is speaking through a prophet, seer and revelator. It is a new prophecy to whoever changes and becomes "newer" than he was before as a result of having that teaching declared to him with power and authority of a prophet, seer and revelator, and receiving it as intended, and acting on it.

I put a post up above (before I butt in) that enumerates the job of a seer, and how it is carried out regularly. Part of it lists that a seer:

- Brings us to the knowledge of the covenants;

- Has the power to bring forth God

[consiglieri]

Sorry for butting in, but prophecy is "Inspired words of a prophet about a future event"--this goes on in general Conference. All the talks are geared toward the future event of our resurrection, judgment, exaltation, and the Second Coming. Prophecy is also "inspired words of a prophet," period, including the testimony of Jesus, which also are uttered constantly during General Conference (Revelations 19:10 and even better, Alma 6:8 ).

Respectfully, this could be said about any street preacher.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

That would make mega Churches and other Christian religions prophetic as well.

I see O-Brother beat me to it.

"Oh, brother!"

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[CV75]

a level of support from the dictionary

In the spirit of butting in again: I think we need to use scriptural definitions and insights for prophecy, otherwise we're discussing the meat of the matter out of context.

[CV75]

Respectfully, this could be said about any street preacher.

The definition of prophecy neither adds nor takes away from street preachers. Their statements are inspired by God to the degree they are able to receive a fulness of the light He offers them. Their ability and practice to prophesy takes nothing away from our Church's leaders' ability and practice.

[CV75]

I see O-Brother beat me to it.

The definition of prophecy neither adds nor takes away from other churches. Their leaders' statements are inspired by God to the degree they are able to receive a fulness of the light He offers them. Their ability and practice to prophesy takes nothing away from our Church's leaders' ability and practice.

[O-Brother]

The definition of prophecy neither adds nor takes away from other churches. Their leaders' statements are inspired by God to the degree they are able to receive a fulness of the light He offers them. Their ability and practice to prophesy takes nothing away from our Church's leaders' ability and practice.

We certainly hear our prophets, seers and revelators 1 ) declare the word of God; 2 ) do so by the scriptures ("according to the revelation of the truth of the word which had been spoken by [the] fathers"; and, 3 ) according to the spirit of prophecy ["according to the testimony of Jesus"] which is in them, all eh time, not just in General Conference. Many of these declarations are future-event oriented, even in such mundane teachings as, "I shall give you rest." Remember what the new and everlasting covenant is all about, and our responsibility to recognize the voice of the Spirit when He is speaking through a prophet, seer and revelator. It is a new prophecy to whoever changes and becomes "newer" than he was before as a result of having that teaching declared to him with power and authority of a prophet, seer and revelator, and receiving it as intended, and acting on it.

I put a post up above (before I butt in) that enumerates the job of a seer, and how it is carried out regularly. Part of it lists that a seer:

- Brings us to the knowledge of the covenants;

- Has the power to bring forth God

[consiglieri]

In the spirit of butting in again: I think we need to use scriptural definitions and insights for prophecy, otherwise we're discussing the meat of the matter out of context.

Do you have a scripture that defines prophecy as exhortation to good works and program management?

More importantly, do you have a scripture that defines a "seer" in this manner (since that is the point of the thread)?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

The definition of prophecy neither adds nor takes away from street preachers. Their statements are inspired by God to the degree they are able to receive a fulness of the light He offers them. Their ability and practice to prophesy takes nothing away from our Church's leaders' ability and practice.

So when you sustain the First Presidency and the Twelve as seers, they are just 15 among thousands?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[CV75]

OK. Name one new prophecy in the last 30 years. An official one, with all the correct wording as Joseph did, predicting a future event that has or will be fulfilled.

I'm trying not to repeat former posts (please refer to them), but anything that references the meaning of "new" in new and everlasting covenant" in relation to the application of the restored Gospel qualifies. Almost every talk. Invitations to do something to receive some aspect of the the promises of the covenants, such as spiritual rebirth.

[O-Brother]

Do you have a scripture that defines prophecy as exhortation to good works and program management?

More importantly, do you have a scripture that defines a "seer" in this manner (since that is the point of the thread)?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Why do you and I think alike?

[CV75]

Do you have a scripture that defines prophecy as exhortation to good works and program management?

More importantly, do you have a scripture that defines a "seer" in this manner (since that is the point of the thread)?

Alma 6:8; and I refer you to post #68. The question I asked, "Who is asking and why?" helps with getting to the point of the thread.

[mercyngrace]

OK. Name one new prophecy in the last 30 years. An official one, with all the correct wording as Joseph did, predicting a future event that has or will be fulfilled.

Well now. That was easy.

We have seen only the foreshadowing of the mighty force for good that this Church will become.

Pres. Hinckley Oct 2001 GC

Ask yourself how he knows what the Church will become if he hasn't seen it?

Never mind - I forgot your definition precludes anything that isn't prefaced by a variation of "Thus saith the Lord" .

[CV75]

So when you sustain the First Presidency and the Twelve as seers, they are just 15 among thousands?

I only sustain them for who they are. I sustain none other as such, regardless of their claim or whether one questions whether God wants me to or not.

[O-Brother]

I'm trying not to repeat former posts (please refer to them), but anything that references the meaning of "new" in new and everlasting covenant" in relation to the application of the restored Gospel qualifies. Almost every talk. Invitations to do something to receive some aspect of the the promises of the covenants, such as spiritual rebirth.

Let's go along with what you stated above. Are you saying that everything that's spoken in General Conference by the Prophet or other General Authorities is prophecy? If so, give me an example of a prophecy - which has already been predefined several times to include the prediction or foretelling of something that is to come. I understand the counsel part. But, unless I'm talking Greek here, I am asking for ONE SINGLE example of a prophecy. Is that too much to ask? Let's go back 10 years, something more recent.

Unless, the definition of prophecy has completely changed and prophecies are now "talks" and "counsel". IF that's the case, I didn't get the memo.

[O-Brother]

Well now. That was easy.

Pres. Hinckley Oct 2001 GC

Ask yourself how he knows what the Church will become if he hasn't seen it?

Never mind - I forgot your definition precludes anything that isn't prefaced by a variation of "Thus saith the Lord" .

With all due respect, that is not new prophecy or prediction. Brigham Young said the above and more much ealier:

Out of this Church will grow the Kingdom which Daniel saw. This is the very people that Daniel saw would continue to grow and spread and prosper [see Daniel 2:44]; and if we are not faithful, others will take our places, for this is the Church and people that will possess the Kingdom for ever and ever (DBY, 438). Our work is to bring forth Zion, and produce the Kingdom of God in its perfection and beauty upon the earth (DBY, 443).

[consiglieri]

Why do you and I think alike?

Because you are my sockpuppet, studmuffin.

[mercyngrace]

With all due respect, that is not new prophecy or prediction. Brigham Young said the above and more much ealier:

You're right - it doesn't fit the narrow definition you require. I concede that fact. What it does show is that President Hinckley has seen the future growth of the church - making him a seer.

Let me ask you this.

Do you think John was not a seer because he saw the same things Nephi saw?

Was Nephi not a seer because Enoch had already seen the future of this earth?

How about Moses? Just another also-ran... not a real seer?

Why does a seer have to see something NEW in order to be a seer? If you saw in a vision, the second coming and the events leading up to it, would you not be a seer because someone else had already been there done that?

[zerinus]

Do you have a scripture that defines prophecy as exhortation to good works and program management?

More importantly, do you have a scripture that defines a "seer" in this manner (since that is the point of the thread)?

From the LDS Guide to the Scriptures:

PROPHET

A person who has been called by and speaks for God. As a messenger of God, a prophet receives commandments, prophecies, and revelations from God. His responsibility is to make known God's will and true character to mankind and to show the meaning of his dealings with them. A prophet denounces sin and foretells its consequences. He is a preacher of righteousness. On occasion, prophets may be inspired to foretell the future for the benefit of mankind. His primary responsibility, however, is to bear witness of Christ. The President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's prophet on earth today. Members of the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators.

PROPHECY, PROPHESY

A prophecy consists of divinely inspired words or writings, which a person receives through revelation from the Holy Ghost. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy (Rev. 19:10). A prophecy may pertain to the past, present, or future. When a person prophesies, he speaks or writes that which God wants him to know, for his own good or the good of others. Individuals may receive prophecy or revelation for their own lives.

SEER

A person authorized of God to see with spiritual eyes things which God has hidden from the world (Moses 6:35

[nicolasconnault]

Let's go along with what you stated above. Are you saying that everything that's spoken in General Conference by the Prophet or other General Authorities is prophecy? If so, give me an example of a prophecy - which has already been predefined several times to include the prediction or foretelling of something that is to come. I understand the counsel part. But, unless I'm talking Greek here, I am asking for ONE SINGLE example of a prophecy. Is that too much to ask? Let's go back 10 years, something more recent.

Unless, the definition of prophecy has completely changed and prophecies are now "talks" and "counsel". IF that's the case, I didn't get the memo.

I'm not sure if you're trying to stir trouble, but you seem to be repeatedly ignoring what I'm saying.

Decisions that the prophets, seers and revelators make require prophecies and visions of the future. These decisions are evidence of these prophecies and visions. The consequences of these decisions demonstrate the accuracy of these prophecies and visions.

Now, you insist on having your sign-seeking attitude rewarded with a specific foretelling of a future, global event. I'm sorry but I don't know that any such foretelling has been done in General Conference, although it may have been given by our 15 seers in more local meetings such as temple dedications and stake organisations. I have heard such prophecies given by Elder Ballard, for example, in meetings in England, regarding the burgeoning of the Church in England. This hasn't yet happened, so watch out.

Every time an apostle visits a stake, he always leaves his apostolic blessing. This is a time when you ought to listen. That blessing always involves specific promises, usually conditional upon obedience to specific commandments. That is a prophecy. I heard such a prophecy 2 weeks ago when Elder Quintin L. Cook visited our stake.

But let's review some points which you are ignoring:

1. A prophecy isn't necessarily about a future event
2. Just because a prophecy isn't explicitly shared with the whole church membership doesn't mean it wasn't received, and isn't being acted upon
3. Prophetic visions of the future are given when they are needed, and they are never needed just to give people like you the satisfaction of having a prophet who foretells the future

[cinepro]

Well now. That was easy.

Pres. Hinckley Oct 2001 GC

Ask yourself how he knows what the Church will become if he hasn't seen it?

Never mind - I forgot your definition precludes anything that isn't prefaced by a variation of "Thus saith the Lord" .

Wait, did you just quote from the talk where President Hinckley said this?

I do not know what the future holds.