What is a Seer?

[nicolasconnault]

Wait, did you just quote from the talk where President Hinckley said this?

Oh bravo, very clever, now we resort to quoting out of context... How low can you go? Oh well maybe you were just being facetious.

Anyway, who said that being seer was tantamount to omniscience? I'm glad to know that the prophet doesn't know everything that will happen, otherwise I'd definitely be expecting some fantastic, ming-boggling announcements!

Or maybe the near future has already been foretold and we're just being very silly expecting more prophecies... Maybe we have some things to act upon before we ask for more?

[O-Brother]

In the spirit of butting in again: I think we need to use scriptural definitions and insights for prophecy, otherwise we're discussing the meat of the matter out of context.

I quote scripture most of the time but you took the above out of context. I was asserting the definition of the word prophecy for clarity. Prophecy was being interpreted as "counsel" and "talks" hence the necessity to find more reliable definition If we use the Bible Dictionary or scripture, it still supports that prophecy is prediction of future events as well.

[mercyngrace]

Wait, did you just quote from the talk where President Hinckley said this?

Nice try Cinepro ;-) As I read it (and listened to it) that line specifically references the war and its near term consequences. And no. It wasn't the same talk. Same session of conference, though.

[O-Brother]

Because you are my sockpuppet, studmuffin.

Objection! Counsel is being highly speculative.

[O-Brother]

You're right - it doesn't fit the narrow definition you require. I concede that fact. What it does show is that President Hinckley has seen the future growth of the church - making him a seer.

Let me ask you this.

Do you think John was not a seer because he saw the same things Nephi saw?

Was Nephi not a seer because Enoch had already seen the future of this earth?

How about Moses? Just another also-ran... not a real seer?

Why does a seer have to see something NEW in order to be a seer? If you saw in a vision, the second coming and the events leading up to it, would you not be a seer because someone else had already been there done that?

I and thousands of other LDS members can see the growth of the Church in Africa and Mexico and I'm nowhere near a seer.

As for John and Nephi, it's not WHAT they saw, but the fact that they wrote down what they saw in the form of prophecy. I'm still waiting for specific prophecies of the last 30 years uttered from GC.

What about Moses? Did he not prophesy about the exile and scattering of the Hebrews, persecutions and restoration of Israel? It's all verifiable and written down. Actual prophecies. Why is a seer precluded from "seeing" into the future and still be a seer?

That's as good as a plane without wings and thrust. If you saw something in a vision like many others that preceded you, why would you not write it down and disclose it like others did? How did we get the scriptures we now have? Why go thru the trouble of translating the Book of Mormon and all the other scriptures if visions and revelations are to be kept secret? I'm not asking for ALL revelations but just one prophecy.

Still Waiting For A Specific Prophecy...

[nicolasconnault]

I and thousands of other LDS members can can see the growth of the Church in Africa and Mexico and I'm nowhere near a seer.

As for John and Nephi, it's not WHAT they saw, but the fact that they wrote down what they saw in the form of prophecy. I'm still waiting for specific prophecies of the last 30 years uttered from GC.

What about Moses? Did he not prophesy about the exile and scattering of the Hebrews, persecutions and restoration of Israel? It's all verifiable and written down. Actual prophecies. Why is a seer precluded from "seeing" into the future and still be a seer?

That's as good as a plane without wings and thrust. If you saw something in a vision like many others that preceded you, why would you not write it down and disclose it like others did? How did we get the scriptures we now have? Why go thru the trouble of translating the Book of Mormon and all the other scriptures if visions and revelations are to be kept secret? I'm not asking for ALL revelations but just one prophecy.

Still Waiting For A Specific Prophecy...

O-Brother still ignoring my answers to his nagging question

[O-Brother]

O-Brother still ignoring my answers to his nagging question

Your answers are incomplete. No prophecy. No answer. Here are the Prophecies of Moses. I already showed Joseph's.

Deuteronomy 18:15-18

God promised another prophet like Moses

Leviticus 26:44

The people of Israel will never be completely destroyed

Leviticus 26:32-33

Enemies would move into the land of Israel

Deuteronomy 28:49-52

The Bible foreshadowed Rome's destruction of Israel

Deuteronomy 29:23

Israel would become a wasteland

Now show me a specific prophecy from the last 30 years uttered from GC. If you don't have one, just say so instead of monkeying around.

[CV75]

I quote scripture most of the time but you took the above out of context. I was asserting the definition of the word prophecy for clarity. Prophecy was being interpreted as "counsel" and "talks" hence the necessity to find more reliable definition If we use the Bible Dictionary or scripture, it still supports that prophecy is prediction of future events as well.

That's OK if the intent is to narrow the definition to a specific aspect of prophecy for specific discussion purposes--but counsel and talk can certainly constitute prophecy. If the question is, "why is no one predicting future events or translating ancient records anymore?" then maybe someone really is.

1. Joseph Smith is still at the head of this dispensation. Those presidents who serve in his place in the Church after his mortal presidency in a sense become one with him and all he did, which includes predictions and translation. They have the same keys.

2. Anyone who reads the Book of Mormon for the first time is getting a new translation as far as they are concerned.

3. Anyone who feels the Spirit of a Prophet's statement is getting a new witness and/or a new advancement in perspective, knowledge, understanding, sanctification, purification, etc., regardless of what is discussed, as far as they are concerned.

4. Anyone receiving any ordinance for himself is experiencing a new prophetic testimony as the keys are exercised in his behalf, in a new way, as far as he is concerned. Prophetic testimony is not limited to words, it is also the doctrines, covenants and ordinances; the talks and counsel given by the Spirit.

5. The President of the Church holds the keys of anyone else to operate in matters such as patriarchal blessings and other pronouncements that predict teh future (often on conditions of faithfulness).

6. RE: 2 above, even the President of the Church has new experiences, jsut like the rest of us. A deeper understanding of the scriptures is akin to a new translation for the one receiving the added light.

Admittedly these are just scratching the surface, but it is enough to show that the President of the Church is operating as a prophet, seer and revelator in every respect, including predicting the future and translating ancient records.

[nicolasconnault]

Your answers are incomplete. No prophecy. No answer. Here are the Prophecies of Moses. I already showed Joseph's.

Deuteronomy 18:15-18

God promised another prophet like Moses

Leviticus 26:44

The people of Israel will never be completely destroyed

Leviticus 26:32-33

Enemies would move into the land of Israel

Deuteronomy 28:49-52

The Bible foreshadowed Rome's destruction of Israel

Deuteronomy 29:23

Israel would become a wasteland

Now show me a specific prophecy from the last 30 years uttered from GC. If you don't have one, just say so instead of monkeying around.

You'll have to explain in what ways my answers are incomplete:

But let's review some points which you are ignoring:

• A prophecy isn't necessarily about a future event
• Just because a prophecy isn't explicitly shared with the whole church membership doesn't mean it wasn't received, and isn't being acted upon
• Prophetic visions of the future are given when they are needed, and they are never needed just to give people like you the satisfaction of having a prophet who foretells the future

[CV75]

I quote scripture most of the time but you took the above out of context. I was asserting the definition of the word prophecy for clarity. Prophecy was being interpreted as "counsel" and "talks" hence the necessity to find more reliable definition If we use the Bible Dictionary or scripture, it still supports that prophecy is prediction of future events as well.

(Part 2)

Future events have been prophesied. They need not be "original" -- many times has the Lord reiterated the future-oriented Abrahamic covenant. Not only in scripture, but in temples every day. These prophetic statements cannot be made without the keys delegated by the President of the Church.

[mercyngrace]

I and thousands of other LDS members can can see the growth of the Church in Africa and Mexico and I'm nowhere near a seer.

The question isn't can you see it now. The question is could you foresee it in 1978? Or 1988?

[mercyngrace]

laptop and I are having a spat... back with a response once I regain control...

[mercyngrace]

O-Brother,

I continue to take exception to the narrow standard you have set for revelation through a seer. It would appear that I am in fine company:

President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., pinpointed today

[CV75]

I'm still waiting for specific prophecies of the last 30 years uttered from GC.

Why? And why are the examples given not at all acceptable when they are specific and future-oriented?

[O-Brother]

You guys win. I give up. Be back later.

[nicolasconnault]

You guys win. I give up. Be back later.

Woohoo! Quick! Close the thread (and delete this post)!

[mercyngrace]

Woohoo! Quick! Close the thread (and delete this post)!

No way - he left before I edited my accidental post above to add a quote refuting the notion that every prophetic pronouncement must be accompanied with "Thus saith the Lord". I want O-Brother to read it!

Here it is again:

President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., pinpointed today

[cinepro]

Nice try Cinepro ;-) As I read it (and listened to it) that line specifically references the war and its near term consequences. And no. It wasn't the same talk. Same session of conference, though.

I love it. President Hinckley makes a comment about "what the Church may become", and it's evidence that he has seen the future.

But then he says "I do not know what the future holds", but that isn't evidence that he doesn't know what the future holds.

As for context, while he starts out talking about the war, he goes much broader before explaining that he doesn't know what the future holds.

[Talking about war]

Members of the Church in this and other nations are now involved with many others in a great international undertaking. On television we see those of the military leaving their loved ones, knowing not whether they will return. It is affecting the homes of our people. Unitedly, as a Church, we must get on our knees and invoke the powers of the Almighty in behalf of those who will carry the burdens of this campaign.

[Talking about war]

No one knows how long it will last. No one knows precisely where it will be fought. No one knows what it may entail before it is over. We have launched an undertaking the size and nature of which we cannot see at this time.

[Talking about other stuff now]

Occasions of this kind pull us up sharply to a realization that life is fragile, peace is fragile, civilization itself is fragile. The economy is particularly vulnerable. We have been counseled again and again concerning self-reliance, concerning debt, concerning thrift. So many of our people are heavily in debt for things that are not entirely necessary. When I was a young man, my father counseled me to build a modest home, sufficient for the needs of my family, and make it beautiful and attractive and pleasant and secure. He counseled me to pay off the mortgage as quickly as I could so that, come what may, there would be a roof over the heads of my wife and children. I was reared on that kind of doctrine. I urge you as members of this Church to get free of debt where possible and to have a little laid aside against a rainy day.

[still talking about other stuff]

We cannot provide against every contingency. But we can provide against many contingencies. Let the present situation remind us that this we should do.

[Now talking about food storage]

As we have been continuously counseled for more than 60 years, let us have some food set aside that would sustain us for a time in case of need. But let us not panic nor go to extremes. Let us be prudent in every respect. And, above all, my brothers and sisters, let us move forward with faith in the Living God and His Beloved Son.

[Now talking about the promises in the Book of Mormon to the people in Guatemala]

Great are the promises concerning this land of America. We are told unequivocally that it

[mercyngrace]

I love it. President Hinckley makes a comment about "what the Church may will become", and it's evidence that he has seen the future.

FIFY

O-Brother asked for one prophecy about the future. I gave it. Pres. Hinckley's comment indicates that he has knowledge about the future of the church.

[nicolasconnault]

While he starts out talking about the war, he goes much broader before explaining that he doesn't know what the future holds.

Yeah, there's about 5 paragraphs of talking about other stuff than the war before he says "I do not know what the future holds".

I'll answer for you since you are unwilling to:

1. Does a seer have to know everything about the future? No
2. Does President Hinckley's statement means that he knows nothing about the future? No, of course not. He certainly knew who was going to speak next in that conference, and he knew what was coming up next in his talk.

He also said later that he did not believe that an overwhelming scourge was about to fall on the world. Maybe that gives you a bit more insight into how prophets receive revelation.

Another example. Shortly before the year 2000, the whole world was buzzing with the speculative catastrophe tied to Y2K (millenium bug). April conference 1999, President Faust prophesied that no global catastrophe would result from crossing over to the new millenium:

While some glitches may occur, I am optimistic that no great catastrophic computer breakdown will disrupt society as we move into the next century. I have a far greater fear of the disruption of the traditional values of society.

Prophecy. Fulfilled in every point. The fact that some other people (including non-LDS analysts) had made the same prediction does not invalidate this prophecy. President Faust was one of very few people on earth whose prediction was sure (as ing 100% sure) to come true.

You may quibble over his use of the phrase "I'm optimistic that". Quibble away. Where do you think he got his optimism from? Same question for President Hinckley.

[mercyngrace]

As for context, while he starts out talking about the war, he goes much broader before explaining that he doesn't know what the future holds.

Yeah, there's about 5 paragraphs of talking about other stuff than the war before he says "I do not know what the future holds".

Reread what I wrote. "The war and its near term consequences..." That would include financial and political ramifications of 9/11, would it not? You know, like preparing for an uncertain future by obeying the counsel to store food, reigning in spending and living within our means, and upholding the principles of righteousness so as not to see our government and prosperity falter.

[O-Brother]

That's OK if the intent is to narrow the definition to a specific aspect of prophecy for specific discussion purposes--but counsel and talk can certainly constitute prophecy. If the question is, "why is no one predicting future events or translating ancient records anymore?" then maybe someone really is.

1. Joseph Smith is still at the head of this dispensation. Those presidents who serve in his place in the Church after his mortal presidency in a sense become one with him and all he did, which includes predictions and translation. They have the same keys.

2. Anyone who reads the Book of Mormon for the first time is getting a new translation as far as they are concerned.

3. Anyone who feels the Spirit of a Prophet's statement is getting a new witness and/or a new advancement in perspective, knowledge, understanding, sanctification, purification, etc., regardless of what is discussed, as far as they are concerned.

4. Anyone receiving any ordinance for himself is experiencing a new prophetic testimony as the keys are exercised in his behalf, in a new way, as far as he is concerned. Prophetic testimony is not limited to words, it is also the doctrines, covenants and ordinances; the talks and counsel given by the Spirit.

5. The President of the Church holds the keys of anyone else to operate in matters such as patriarchal blessings and other pronouncements that predict teh future (often on conditions of faithfulness).

6. RE: 2 above, even the President of the Church has new experiences, jsut like the rest of us. A deeper understanding of the scriptures is akin to a new translation for the one receiving the added light.

Admittedly these are just scratching the surface, but it is enough to show that the President of the Church is operating as a prophet, seer and revelator in every respect, including predicting the future and translating ancient records.

With all due respect to you and admiration actually. I like people who reason through things to come up with an answer instead of ignoring the issue at hand. Good job. Maybe it's my thick skull but all of the above reflects individual experience WITH the Church but not a specific, prophetic utterance by a Prophet, Seer & Revelator. I have had many spiritual experiences doing what you described above but none of those experiences turned me into a seer. If there have been no prophecies in the last 25 years, it's perfectly OK to say, no, we haven't had any prophecies only revelations in regards to the administration of the Church, perfecting of the saints and growth objectives. Let me break it down as follows, so it's more objective.

Spencer W. Kimball - Name one or two of his prophecies during his calling as a Prophet. ________________

Gordon B. Hinckley - ditto

Thomas S. Monson - ditto

Not counsel. Not advice. Not administrative utterances. But prophecies about future events, which is what prophecies are. I quoted you one from D&C 130 from Joseph Smith. I questioned your mentioning GBH's "growth of the Church" because that was nothing new and had been predicted before. He was just re-enforcing a known fact. Now it's your turn. IF NONE. Write none.

[mercyngrace]

Consiglieri,

This talk brings up an interesting point. Patriarchs are seers. They declare lineage and see into the future as they pronounce blessings, admonitions, and offer counsel.

May be something you can use in your lesson.

MnG

[nicolasconnault]

With all due respect to you and admiration actually. I like people who reason through things to come up with an answer instead of ignoring the issue at hand. Good job. Maybe it's my thick skull but all of the above reflects individual experience WITH the Church but not a specific, prophetic utterance by a Prophet, Seer & Revelator. I have had many spiritual experiences doing what you described above but none of those experiences turned me into a seer. If there have been no prophecies in the last 25 years, it's perfectly OK to say, no, we haven't had any prophecies only revelations in regards to the administration of the Church, perfecting of the saints and growth objectives. Let me break it down as follows, so it's more objective.

Spencer W. Kimball - Name one or two of his prophecies during his calling as a Prophet. ________________

Gordon B. Hinckley - ditto

Thomas S. Monson - ditto

Not counsel. Not advice. Not administrative utterances. But prophecies about future events, which is what prophecies are. I quoted you one from D&C 130 from Joseph Smith. I questioned your mentioning GBH's "growth of the Church" because that was nothing new and had been predicted before. He was just re-enforcing a known fact. Now it's your turn. IF NONE. Write none.

O-Brother's version of a prophecy:

1. Is something totally new never predicted before
2. Is a prediction about a future event
3. Is only valid if given by the President of the Church. His counselors and the 12 apostles don't count

If this is your version of prophecy, then I don't know any that has been given verbatim to the entire Church (which is probably the only way you would know about it). Are you satisfied?

[O-Brother]

You'll have to explain in what ways my answers are incomplete:

But let's review some points which you are ignoring:

• A prophecy isn't necessarily about a future event
• Just because a prophecy isn't explicitly shared with the whole church membership doesn't mean it wasn't received, and isn't being acted upon
• Prophetic visions of the future are given when they are needed, and they are never needed just to give people like you the satisfaction of having a prophet who foretells the future

You have not given me a specific prophecy but generalities.

1. A prophecy IS about a future event as described in the dictionary and defined by theologians worldwide.

2. OK. Name ONE prophecy that HAS been shared with the Church in the last 30 years. I'm OK with the ones that are too sacred to be shared.

3. OK. Illustrate ONE that was needed and given.

You ask me to believe your statements but they are unsubstantiated. I gave you: Moses. Joseph Smith (Section 130) and even mentioned E.T. Benson, accompanied by video. What do you shave to show us besides your interpretations. Is there or isn't there a prophecy in the last 30 years? Yes or No? If Yes, name one. If no, then it's no. Which is it?