Jeffrey R. Holland's Talk

[LifeOnaPlate]

gtaggart's sig is noteworthy here:

Everybody liked better to conjecture how the thing was, than simply to know it; for conjecture soon became more confident than knowledge, and had a more liberal allowance for the incompatible. George Eliot, "Middlemarch"

[Danna]

Did JS and Hyrum read the Book of Mormon in their final hours? Did they read a passage from Ether that would have given them encouragement? Did they testify to the jailers that the book was true? Did they read from the Book of Mormon at Carthage Jail? Yes, and yes, and yes.

This is Elder Holland's point. And I personally doubt the BoM would have been on their minds at all if it didn't actually mean something to them.

In calling for context you end up dismissing actual documented circumstances. Context? Yes. Context at the expense of actual eye-witness accounts of actual events? No.

Or are you taking "final hour" to mean the literal final 60 minutes? Seriously?

---------------------My response:

Or are you taking "final hour" to mean the literal final 60 minutes? Seriously?

No, of course not.

In calling for context you end up dismissing actual documented circumstances. Context? Yes. Context at the expense of actual eye-witness accounts of actual events? No.

Contextual details are vital to any assessment of eyewitness testimony. By that I mean words and phrases linking the testimony to the environment in which the events occurred. The Church History that you are reliant upon is NOT the eyewitness testimony of one person. It is a posthoc construction. The statements relating to both the scripture reading and discussion on the last night, and the testimony bearing on the morning of the martyrdom are devoid of contextual detail found in surrounding text, and any reference as to their actual origin.

Look at the sentences before and after the statement on Page 600 of the Church History, I have underlined contextual data - do you see what I mean?:

****

9:15.

[Danna]

Two of the definitions of the word "hour," both from the Microsoft Encarta Dictionary (http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/hour.html):

5. significant period: a period during which something particularly significant happens

6. time of success: a time when somebody is powerful, successful, or famous their finest hour

In my hard copy edition of the same dictionary, the 5th definition comes with this example:

[Danna]

Such 'proof,' of course, would be impossible since, if Joseph had bothered to write, 'This afternoon took solace in the Book of Mormon,' we'd all know that he was just trying to perpetuate his clever fraud, right?

Well, Joseph did bother to write, or record, quite a bit! Take a look at what he actually wrote or had written about the episode. Why go to the bother of leaving a detailed discussion of his views on dealing with adverse PR? And his detailed account of his dream about the farm at Kirtland. They bothered with noting that Hyrum was reading Josephus, and who was yakking to whom. And who went where, and who slept on the bed and who slept on the floor.

But no-one thought it might be important to record the last testimony of the prophet. Or the words he used when addressing the guards with his powerful final rebuke. Rather we hear who paid for the wine, and who drank.

The two, small, faith-promoting paragraphs on the evening before, and morning of the martyrdom are unconvincing and generic. There are no actual primary sources mentioned and the accounts contrast markedly with the narrative as a whole. They also differ from the 'eyewitness' account left by John Taylor.

Read your own history, Mate. It actually is fascinating.

[Danna]

Okay, for sake of argument, let's say that the only evidence we have for Hyrum reading those verses to Joseph is Section 135. Is it not a fair inference that Hyrum read them to Joseph, given that 1.) John Taylor obviously heard him read the verses, 2.) he was with Joseph both before and after he read the verses, and 3.) the verses were so apt to the situation Hyrum, Joseph, and John Taylor found themselves in? Likewise, is it not a fair inference that Joseph would have taken solace in those verses?

Section 135 is clear that Hyrum read them before leaving for Carthage. We have no further details. LoaP has found that Smith family history indicates Hyrum read and dog-eared other family books of Mormon - accounting for more than one Hyrum Dog-Ear. What was different this time? The Church History account makes no mention of the account. But does note that Joseph spent time with his own family.

By the way, the History of the Church also tells us that Hyrum "read and commented upon extracts from the Book of Mormon" the night before the Martyrdom, that Joseph bore testimony of the Book of Mormon to the guards that night as well (see page 600 of vol. 6). In addition, the History tells us that both Joseph and Hyrum bore testimony of the Book of Mormon and the Restoration the day of the Martyrdom (610). In short, that glorious book was part and parcel of their last few days alive on this earth. Just a guess, but I think Joseph would take solace in the words Hyrum read, solace in the words of another prophet he loved and whose words were so fitting to Joseph's circumstances. But that's just me, a believer.

Thank you Elder Holland for a fine and very inspiring talk.

See my comments above. I suggest you read Chapters 29 to 35 yourself, and note the intricate detail recorded during the time at Carthage. And the sketchiness of those two broad faith-promoting events crammed into the otherwise comprehensively accounted-for night before and morning of the martyrdom.

[Hamba Tuhan]

But no-one thought it might be important to record the last testimony of the prophet. Or the words he used when addressing the guards with his powerful final rebuke. Rather we hear who paid for the wine, and who drank.

The two, small, faith-promoting paragraphs on the evening before, and morning of the martyrdom are unconvincing and generic.

As a PhD student in history in the final months of my programme, I find your conclusions strained, borderline desperate, and beyond unconvincing. Working with old accounts is what I do all day, five days a week. I'm sometimes astounded at what some people chose to record in detail whilst giving other events a more 'generic' treatment. I specifically work with 'religious' documents, written primarily by Jesuit priests, and they will literally go on for pages giving blow-by-blow details concerning skirmishes between warring indigenous tribes (right down to who stood and fought where) and how much the Europeans are currently spending on rice, sardines, and sago, and then, in the middle of things, mention in one line that someone was invited to preach in a local village where, incidentally, several hundred people were baptised. To conclude as a result that the Jesuits weren't really interested in preaching and baptising would be specious. To suggest they didn't do any preaching and baptising at all would be just plain silly. There is simply no accounting for what people record, but, broadly speaking, recorders tend to spend the most time describing events or details which they find novel. I do the same thing in my personal journal. I read from the Book of Mormon every single night before bed, but I seldom mention that fact unless it helps me supply temporal context to something else or it resulted in an unusual burst of insight. Ditto with my morning and nightly prayers. I do record what I eat for lunch and dinner most days, though. And I'll definitely be writing in detail about our ace Mutual activity tonight. If you really knew 'history' they way you've pretended to, you'd be aware how shaky a position you've staked out for yourself in pursuing this point.

[Zakuska]

Section 135 is clear that Hyrum read them before leaving for Carthage. We have no further details. LoaP has found that Smith family history indicates Hyrum read and dog-eared other family books of Mormon - accounting for more than one Hyrum Dog-Ear. What was different this time? The Church History account makes no mention of the account. But does note that Joseph spent time with his own family.

I strongly suggest Danna needs to go listen to what Elder Holland actually said rather then to keep beating up her straw man and making a fool of herself.

Ill make it easy... it starts at 6 minutes in:

What he said is the Book he holds is the book Hyrum read from "BEFORE LEAVING TO CARTHAGE"... never once does he Claim that it was ever AT Carthage. Nor does he say they read from it or folded down the leaf 60 minutes before the Mob Stormed the Jail. What he does say is that... in the Hour of their death, Thats not a Sixty Minute hour but a metaphorical, "time of" or "Hours leading up to" their Mayrtrdom, They pondered and bore testimony to the Book of Mormon. Which... as the record shows they did.

Nice Rabbit trail Danna.

[gtaggart]

I have not got a bluddy clue what you are on about, mate. You are jousting with a strawman. The 'literal hour comprising 60 carefully timed minutes' was never part of my discussion of the topic.

ETA: Also, I prefer 'straining at gnats', than 'picking at nits'!

Well, to help you get a clue, consider your post #291 on this thread where you summarize the relevant parts Elder Holland's talk. Note the words/phrases you emphasized (the parts inside the ? marks):

The apostle relates how the two men went to their martyrdom pondering the truths of the Book of Mormon. ?In the hour they died?, Elder Holland tells us, they were ?quoting from and finding solace in? the Book of Mormon. How, could anyone believe that Joseph wrote the book either himself or as part of a conspiracy to defraud, when he went to his death believing and acting upon the book? Would these ?men BLASPHEME before God by continuing to fix their ...eternal salvation... on a book they fictitiously created out of whole cloth?. (emphasis yours)

Then look at your post #337 where you give an hour by hour account of the last day. Now pardon me if I misread you, but I added the two posts together and decided that you were being literal about Holland's use of the word "hour." My apologies if I conflated your emphasis of the words "In the hour they died" with the gloating over same on the other board--they're calling it "fudging" on Elder Holland's part. And if you're paying attention, I'm not the only one on this board that has pointed out the absurdity of their (your?) argument on that point.

As for your idiomatic preferences, strain, pick? All I know is that you're asking us to swallow a frickin' camel when you ask us to ignore the one recorded instance of Hyrum reading the Book of Mormon and the two recorded instances of Joseph and Hyrum bearing testimony of the Book in the hours before the Martyrdom.

Hope that helps, mate.

[mfbukowski]

A long lost document, in Joseph Smith's hand, has just been discovered, and I'm privileged to reveal it here first:

EXACTLY! Brilliant device! Thanks!

[thinkingaboutit]

Deleted

[ttribe]

I would like to paint a picture for you as I see the incident, in addition to what I said above. It is only an idea, but please consider it.

As they left for Carthage, Joseph knew that he and perhaps those around him were about to die. Hyrum had been Joseph's close companion for many years, and had stood and testified of the authenticity of the Mormon Church through thick and thin. Hyrum's testimony was powerful, and Joseph could count on his brother to back him up in everything. If he had let Hyrum know any time before his death that the work was unauthentic, it would very well have proved the ruin of all of Joseph's plans for the church.

As the time of death drew closer, his motives for allowing Hyrum to continue to believe in the work may have changed or been added upon. I have been in situations before in which telling the truth to someone who was heavily emotionally invested in an untruth was difficult, and as death approached, this may have been Joseph's position as well. According to accounts, Joseph had a special place in his heart for his brother, and when death was apparently imminent, perhaps he decided not to tell Hyrum that it had all been a lie so that Hyrum could die nobly rather than in shock and humiliation. If the book and the church were untrue, it would have been excruciatingly difficult for him to bring himself to say so at this final hour. It wouldn't have helped his position either. It was even probably touching for Joseph to hear his brother (if he read them aloud) read the words of the Book of Mormon in those last hours - a sign that Hyrum still believed and was dying without experiencing the pain that his devotion to his brother had been for naught. In addition to this, Joseph may have desired the companionship and consolation of his brother during these last days before his death, not intense animosity that would have likely ensued. Joseph had many reasons to keep Hyrum believing, before, during, and at the end of Carthage, and even testify at his brother's side that the work was true one final time. At least Joseph would be able to die as a martyr, and not a liar.

Just an idea...

And I see that I was mistaken that Holland was offering it as ultimate proof. Thank you!

You seem to be assuming that Hyrum (who lived in the same tiny house as JS during the "alleged" translation of the BoM) never would have figured out that the BoM was a fraud. I think that's a significant stretch of credulity.

[Deborah]

In addition to this, Joseph may have desired the companionship and consolation of his brother during these last days before his death, not intense animosity that would have likely ensued.

Quite a stretch here. First of all Joseph tried to keep Hyrum from coming with him to Carthage because he knew what would happen. So you whole theory is based on a false premise.

[ttribe]

Quite a stretch here. First of all Joseph tried to keep Hyrum from coming with him to Carthage because he knew what would happen. So you whole theory is based on a false premise.

More than one, near as I can tell.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Now pardon me if I misread you, but I added the two posts together and decided that you were being literal about Holland's use of the word "hour." My apologies if I conflated your emphasis of the words "In the hour they died" with the gloating over same on the other board--they're calling it "fudging" on Elder Holland's part. And if you're paying attention, I'm not the only one on this board that has pointed out the absurdity of their (your?) argument on that point.

Agreed.

Danna, you're original arguments about wrong books, and the very hour of death literally and so forth have been whittled down to your contention that Hyrum didn't read Ether in the presence of Joseph Smith. As tumba pointed out, your analysis of the documents is tenuous. From John Taylor we read:

When Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination, he said:

[wenglund]

[quote name=Danna' date='06 October 2009 - 04:58 PM' timestamp='1254869894'

post='1208729565]Concerning the discussion in the jail. Have you read the surrounding chapters?

[Mortal Man]

I think there is one point on which everyone can agree.

More talks like Elder Holland's would boost the ratings of General Conference.

[Danna]

As a PhD student in history in the final months of my programme, I find your conclusions strained, borderline desperate, and beyond unconvincing. Working with old accounts is what I do all day, five days a week. I'm sometimes astounded at what some people chose to record in detail whilst giving other events a more 'generic' treatment. I specifically work with 'religious' documents, written primarily by Jesuit priests, and they will literally go on for pages giving blow-by-blow details concerning skirmishes between warring indigenous tribes (right down to who stood and fought where) and how much the Europeans are currently spending on rice, sardines, and sago, and then, in the middle of things, mention in one line that someone was invited to preach in a local village where, incidentally, several hundred people were baptised. To conclude as a result that the Jesuits weren't really interested in preaching and baptising would be specious. To suggest they didn't do any preaching and baptising at all would be just plain silly. There is simply no accounting for what people record, but, broadly speaking, recorders tend to spend the most time describing events or details which they find novel. I do the same thing in my personal journal. I read from the Book of Mormon every single night before bed, but I seldom mention that fact unless it helps me supply temporal context to something else or it resulted in an unusual burst of insight. Ditto with my morning and nightly prayers. I do record what I eat for lunch and dinner most days, though. And I'll definitely be writing in detail about our ace Mutual activity tonight. If you really knew 'history' they way you've pretended to, you'd be aware how shaky a position you've staked out for yourself in pursuing this point.

As a PhD Behavior Analyst (Research area, higher orders of behavior; Teaching area, Pyschology of Evidence), whose PhD thesis was on false memory, and who teaches Psychology of Evidence as part of a Police Studies program, including among other things, analysis of evidentiary transcripts using evidence-based procedures, I don't know and don't claim to know anything about history. I was looking at the texts as evidence. I found no primary source of evidence for the assertion that Hyrum read Ether to comfort Joseph. Or that anyone read and discussed, and bore their testimony during the last two days at Carthage. Or that Joseph bore a powerful testimony to the guards.

[Pahoran]

I would like to paint a picture for you as I see the incident, in addition to what I said above. It is only an idea, but please consider it.

As they left for Carthage, Joseph knew that he and perhaps those around him were about to die. Hyrum had been Joseph's close companion for many years, and had stood and testified of the authenticity of the Mormon Church through thick and thin. Hyrum's testimony was powerful, and Joseph could count on his brother to back him up in everything. If he had let Hyrum know any time before his death that the work was unauthentic, it would very well have proved the ruin of all of Joseph's plans for the church.

As the time of death drew closer, his motives for allowing Hyrum to continue to believe in the work may have changed or been added upon. According to accounts, Joseph had a special place in his heart for his brother, and when death was apparently imminent, perhaps he decided not to tell Hyrum that it had all been a lie so that Hyrum could die nobly rather than in shock and humiliation. Or maybe he didn't tell him because he didn't know who would die besides him, and therefore wanted to die without bringing shame on himself. If the book and the church were untrue, it would have been excruciatingly difficult for him to bring himself to say so at this final hour. It wouldn't have helped his position either. If he had declared the Book of Mormon wasn't true while he was in Carthage, it is probable that the Saints in Nauvoo would have joined the mob that was forming. (Sad thought...I hate violence)

It may have even been touching for Joseph to hear his brother read the words of the Book of Mormon in those last hours - a sign that Hyrum still believed and was not going to experience the pain that his devotion to his brother had been for naught and/or that Joseph could take his secret to the grave. In addition to this, Joseph may have desired the companionship and consolation of his brother during these last days before his death, not intense animosity that would have likely ensued had the Church been declared as untrue. Joseph had many reasons to keep Hyrum and the Saints believing, before, during, and at the end of Carthage, and even testify at his brother's side that the work was true while they were in the jail. Knowing death was imminent, Joseph had to choose if he was going to die considered by those he knew to be a liar or a martyr.

Just an idea...

What I'm saying is that there is not sufficient evidence of Joseph taking solace in the Book of Mormon. Hyrum could have read the words to John Taylor and Joseph, and taken solace in them, but Joseph did not necessarily find solace in the Book of Mormon. Joseph could have had other reasons for allowing Hyrum to continue to believe and to continue keep up appearances about his religion even (especially?) when death was imminent. Joseph knew he was going to die, and it wouldn't have helped him much to declare the Church wasn't true at that point. Not like it would have saved him... Poor Joseph!

And I see that I was mistaken that Holland was offering it as ultimate proof. Thank you!

Thank you, SpeculatingAboutIt, for showing how this works. Without a shred of evidence to back you up, you have leaned back in your chair and, entirely out of whole cloth, manufactured a brand new "just so story" -- and now you expect us to take it seriously?

The mind boggles!

Actually if you were right about it all being a fraud, and Hyrum (somehow) not being in on it, and Joseph really caring about Hyrum, then there could only have been one course of action open to him: come clean with Hyrum and let him make a getaway while he (Joseph) stayed to take the heat.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Daniel Peterson]

As a Ph.D. specializing in the analysis of ancient and medieval texts, I find the critics' response to Elder Holland's conference address both hilarious and instructive . . . er, no, wait a minute . . . I'm reduced to impotent and desperate rage, or something of that sort. (I hope I get this right.) Danna, I'm told, has really cleaned our clock, and I'm supposedly violating Godwin's Law "right and left." (Shouldn't I, rather, be illustrating it? Oh my. It's all so confusing.)

But now, back to seething.

(Though I no longer post on it, I do continue to find the Dr. Dahesh board fascinating.)

[Danna]

I strongly suggest Danna needs to go listen to what Elder Holland actually said rather then to keep beating up her straw man and making a fool of herself.

Ill make it easy... it starts at 6 minutes in:

What he said is the Book he holds is the book Hyrum read from "BEFORE LEAVING TO CARTHAGE"... never once does he Claim that it was ever AT Carthage. Nor does he say they read from it or folded down the leaf 60 minutes before the Mob Stormed the Jail. What he does say is that... in the Hour of their death, Thats not a Sixty Minute hour but a metaphorical, "time of" or "Hours leading up to" their Mayrtrdom, They pondered and bore testimony to the Book of Mormon. Which... as the record shows they did.

Nice Rabbit trail Danna.

Crickey!

You have not been reading my posts!

I actually said that Holland said Hyrum read and dog-eared the book before leaving for Carthage! Go back and see!

As to the 'hour of their death' quote I was quoting Elder Holland. Whose talk I have listened to a number of times, and I have transcribed portions of it.

My point was, that given only D&C 135 claims to be eyewitness testimony, the assertion of Book of Mormon study in Carthage Jail is not supported! (along with the consequential assertions that this is 'proof' that Joseph's account of the origin of the Book of Mormon is correct)

OK. Can you give me a unequivocal primary source that indicates that AT Carthage, Hyrum read the Book of Mormon and discussed it with Joseph, and that Joseph bore his testimony of it?

If you can, I will be only too happy to accept that Joseph went to his death with a testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Yes, I did so yesterday morning. That is how I found the evidence that directly contradicts your uninformed claim that: "John Taylor never said they read the Book of Mormon in jail. There is no record of a Book of Mormon in the jail." I have yet to see you acknowledge your flagrant mistake.

I, too, have yet to see Dana acknowledge any mistakes, though she has made many and shifted the goal posts several times throughout the discussion.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I found no primary source of evidence for the assertion that Hyrum read Ether to comfort Joseph. Or that anyone read and discussed, and bore their testimony during the last two days at Carthage. Or that Joseph bore a powerful testimony to the guards.

Would we need to provide a photograph or a video? I explained my reading of D&C 135. If your argument is "we don't have an exact quote that says Hyrum was with Joseph when he read Ether as depicted by John Taylor" we agree. You say this excludes it from being a possibility and I say it is a probability based on the circumstances.

Further, John Taylor's account in the History of the Church says that they did read the BoM at Carthage jail and JS did bear testimony of the record to the guards. You are flatly wrong, and we've provided the quotes multiple times.

[LifeOnaPlate]

OK. Can you give me a unequivocal primary source that indicates that AT Carthage, Hyrum read the Book of Mormon and discussed it with Joseph, and that Joseph bore his testimony of it?

If you can, I will be only too happy to accept that Joseph went to his death with a testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

Re-read the last several pages.

[Danna]

Well, to help you get a clue, consider your post #291 on this thread where you summarize the relevant parts Elder Holland's talk. Note the words/phrases you emphasized (the parts inside the ? marks):

Then look at your post #337 where you give an hour by hour account of the last day. Now pardon me if I misread you, but I added the two posts together and decided that you were being literal about Holland's use of the word "hour." My apologies if I conflated your emphasis of the words "In the hour they died" with the gloating over same on the other board--they're calling it "fudging" on Elder Holland's part. And if you're paying attention, I'm not the only one on this board that has pointed out the absurdity of their (your?) argument on that point.

As for your idiomatic preferences, strain, pick? All I know is that you're asking us to swallow a frickin' camel when you ask us to ignore the one recorded instance of Hyrum reading the Book of Mormon and the two recorded instances of Joseph and Hyrum bearing testimony of the Book in the hours before the Martyrdom.

Hope that helps, mate.

Sigh,

as I said above, I was quoting Elder Holland. I never assumed he meant a literal hour. My confusion related to the wierd assumption on this board that I would assume a common phrase was to be taken literally.

You have completely missed the point of my demonstrating the efforts that went into recording the last days and hours of Joseph and Hyrum.

[ttribe]

Danna, and others, I'd suggest reading this: Witness to the Martyrdom.