Jeffrey R. Holland's Talk

[LifeOnaPlate]

Who cares? I did not realize that providing 100% concrete evidence that it was the same book as used by Hyrum in the jail is a requirement.

It isn't just that she is making a mountain out of a molehill, it's her accusation that Elder Holland is lying that really takes the cake. It couldn't be a mistake, it couldn't be that two different books are thought to be the book in question, it's that he is trying to fool us all, as though that was even the point of his address.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Can you be more specific and cite the specific language. I took a look at D&C 135, and didnt see it.

Why call him desperate? He made a specific request for a reference for a key factual assertion underlying this notion that Smith took solace in the Book of Mormon. Apologists do that all the time.

4 When Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination, he said: [...etc.]?The same morning, after Hyrum had made ready to go?shall it be said to the slaughter? yes, for so it was?he read the following paragraph, near the close of the twelfth chapter of Ether, in the Book of Mormon, and turned down the leaf upon it: ["..." etc.] The testators are now dead, and their testament is in force.

This document was written by John Taylor. Are you saying he just made this up? And if so, why? This is getting silly.

[LifeOnaPlate]

History has been rewritten.

The real rewriting is being undertaken by Danna. Whether the exact same book Elder Holland held was the one read by Hyrum (and I believe it was and you haven't proven otherwise) John Taylor testified to the event. So what's really going on here is you are saying John Taylor lied. It's your word against his, and I'll take his.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Which is why Elder Holland's subsequent statements are a puzzle:

The apostle relates how the two men went to their martyrdom pondering the truths of the Book of Mormon. ?In the hour they died?, Elder Holland tells us, they were ?quoting from and finding solace in? the Book of Mormon. How, could anyone believe that Joseph wrote the book either himself or as part of a conspiracy to defraud, when he went to his death believing and acting upon the book? Would these ?men BLASPHEME before God by continuing to fix their ...eternal salvation... on a book they fictitiously created out of whole cloth?.

His conclusions are somewhat mysterious. None of the 'theories' of the production of the Book of Mormon that Elder Holland mentioned implicate Hyrum. And there is no evidence that Joseph read, or discussed, or listened to the Book of Mormon at all in the weeks between the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor and his death.

Actually there is. John Taylor testified Hyrum read from the BoM the day they left for Carthage. Further, he explained:

Testimony of Joseph and Hyrum to the Book of Mormon.

Both Joseph and Hyrum bore a faithful testimony to the Latter-day work, and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, and prophesied of the triumph of the Gospel over all the earth, exhorting the brethren present to faithfulness and persevering diligence in proclaiming the Gospel, building up the Temple, and performing all the duties connected with our holy religion.

History of the Church vol. 6, pg. 610. Or click here.

Elder Holland was not conflating the reading from Ether and the discussion of the Book of Mormon in the jail, but Danna seems to be.

[Jaybear]

This document was written by John Taylor. Are you saying he just made this up? And if so, why? This is getting silly.

I sense that you are deliberately missing the point, and feigning annoyance.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and spell it out.

The factual assertion that DANA asked for a reference was that Smith took solace in the words of the BOM in the hour before he died. That is a material fact (unlike whether it was the same book), as from that fact, Holland wonders how anyone can suggest Smith wrote the book himself. A point which many here seem to believe is persuasive evidence of the truth of the BOM.

The cite you provided in response says nothing about Smith taking solace in the words of the BOM in hour before he died.

So are you aware of any reference which would support the factual assertion that Smith took solace in the words of the BOM shortly before he was killed?

[LifeOnaPlate]

I sense that you are deliberately missing the point, and feigning annoyance.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and spell it out.

The factual assertion that DANA asked for a reference was that Smith took solace in the words of the BOM in the hour before he died. That is a material fact (unlike whether it was the same book), as from that fact, Holland wonders how anyone can suggest Smith wrote the book himself. A point which many here seem to believe is persuasive evidence of the truth of the BOM.

The cite you provided in response says nothing about Smith taking solace in the words of the BOM in hour before he died.

So are you aware of any reference which would support the factual assertion that Smith took solace in the words of the BOM shortly before he was killed?

Oh, we're stuck on one word in a list of descriptions? I can only assume from what I have read that JS took solace in the jail from the BoM. I believe as per Taylor's testimony that he and Hyrum took solace in it on the day they left for Carthage. I assume they wouldn't have forgotten reading the passage from Ether 12 over the span of a few days. They bore fervent testimony of the BoM in the jail as per Taylor, who doesn't explicitly say they took "solace" from it for all I can tell.

That's the hang-up? OK. Talk about making a man an offender for a word.

[wenglund]

I just explained how Joseph, his family and friends won in evolutionary terms-the terms which all our instincts were wired to accomplish. The only potential way the downsides would outweigh the benefits is if you think that Joseph and his family and friends would have had a better evolutionary outcome if they had remained or returned to being unknown farmers.

When I see you committing a fraud for the reasons you suggest above, then your point may begin to have some credibility. Until then, your actions speak louder than words, and actually support what I have been saying.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Jaybear]

That's the hang-up? OK. Talk about making a man an offender for a word.

Oh, please.

I would not have asked for a reference if I didn't think the assertion that Smith took solace in the words of the BOM, in the hour he died to be a material fact underlying the argument that was presented.

If there is no reference to support that fact, and its mere supposition by Holland, then just admit it, and move on. The argument, of course, is far less persuasive when its premised on supposition.

[wenglund]

I sense that you are deliberately missing the point, and feigning annoyance.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and spell it out.

The factual assertion that DANA asked for a reference was that Smith took solace in the words of the BOM in the hour before he died. That is a material fact (unlike whether it was the same book), as from that fact, Holland wonders how anyone can suggest Smith wrote the book himself. A point which many here seem to believe is persuasive evidence of the truth of the BOM.

The cite you provided in response says nothing about Smith taking solace in the words of the BOM in hour before he died.

So are you aware of any reference which would support the factual assertion that Smith took solace in the words of the BOM shortly before he was killed?

I'll resist the temptation to mimic back your arrogance and condescension, and simply remind you of Danna's bold declaration: "John Taylor never said they read the Book of Mormon in jail. There is no record of a Book of Mormon in the jail."

Can you not see how the cited portion of D&C 135 proves Danna's assertion false?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[LifeOnaPlate]

Oh, please.

I would not have asked for a reference if I didn't think the assertion that Smith took solace in the words of the BOM, in the hour he died to be a material fact underlying the argument that was presented.

If there is no reference to support that fact, and its mere supposition by Holland, then just admit it, and move on. The argument, of course, is far less persuasive when its premised on supposition.

You're focusing on one aspect of Danna's many accusations/claims. But to be more pointed, what part of "I can only assume from what I have read that JS took solace in the jail from the BoM. I believe as per Taylor's testimony that he and Hyrum took solace in it on the day they left for Carthage [contra Danna]. I assume they wouldn't have forgotten reading the passage from Ether 12 over the span of a few days. They bore fervent testimony of the BoM in the jail as per Taylor, who doesn't explicitly say they took 'solace' from it for all I can tell" did you not understand?

*Edited update.

OK, now I am convinced they read from the BoM at Carthage as well as per the witness testimony discovered by Wade Englund. As he noted:

According to the History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.32, p.600-601, Shortly after 9pm, June 26th, 1844, while in the Carthage jail, there was recorded: "During the evening the Patriarch Hyrum Smith read and commented upon extracts from the Book of Mormon, on the imprisonments and deliverance of the bore a powerful testimony to the guards of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon, the Restoration of the Gospel, the administration of angels, and that the kingdom of God was again established upon the earth, for the sake of which he was then incarcerated in that prison, and not because he had violated any law of God or man....Joseph gave expression to several presentiments that he had to die, and said 'I would like to see my family again,' and 'I would to God that I could preach to the Saints in Nauvoo once more.'"

[Daniel2]

After listening to Holland himself, it's fascinating to see many of what appear to be defensive comments from 'both sides of the peanut gallery' about Holland's talk and tone.

I am not surprised that believers were both energized and galvanized by what they felt was a passionate, rallying testimony motivated by righteous love.

I'm also not surprised that many former-believers interpreted the talk by perceiving reflections of desperation and antagonism.

After all, each of us often perceives the word not as it is--but as we, ourselves, are.

Holland, clearly, was not trying to be diplomatic or attempt to bridge any gaps between divergent ideologies in this discourse. His was not a moment to examine the question of, "How wide the divide...?" Rather, he vehemently spoke to the LDS philosophy that one must either be "hot or cold." His desire to stand as a witness of his belief in the gospel he represents was as electrifying as it was polarizing--and I believe that is exactly the effect he was aiming for.

Love it, hate it, or anything 'in between,' it seems clear that Holland gave one of the more memorable talks in quite a while. I've no doubt that many of the faithful will consider this remarkably effective talk as a defining one for many years to come--and perhaps that, itself, is the greatest measure of it's own impact.

My view,

Darin

[Daniel Peterson]

I would just like to announce that I was insulted by Elder Holland's talk and that I'm frothing with rage about it.

[lostindc]

I would just like to announce that I was insulted by Elder Holland's talk and that I'm frothing with rage about it.

Me too, I have never been more disgusted with Elder Holland's violent rhetoric. To make me feel better, I am listening to some of John Dehlin's podcasts.

[Zakuska]

Oh, please.

I would not have asked for a reference if I didn't think the assertion that Smith took solace in the words of the BOM, in the hour he died to be a material fact underlying the argument that was presented.

If there is no reference to support that fact, and its mere supposition by Holland, then just admit it, and move on. The argument, of course, is far less persuasive when its premised on supposition.

For Petes sake Talk about "offending for a word."!!! LOAP I here ya!!!

Does the "in the hour of his death he read from the book of mormon" have to mean 3600 seconds before the Mob stormed the Jail?

Can't it mean the metaphorical Hour of?! Such as when the Pope says... "in the hour of the Lord Passion he called his deciples together and Broke bread.

I sware people around hear are Bipolar!

[William James]

Just thought I would say that, as always, Jeffrey R. Holland's talk is powerful, well thought out, insightful, etc. etc. etc. He is both a moving and a persuasive speaker, his logic excellent. Plus, I always love his topics! I do always feel the Spirit when he talks.

I have a more difficult time feeling the Spirit when Elder Holland talks. I strongly disagree with his comment about the BoM being something that people must discredit before being able to leave the church. As I have said many times, I do not believe that the BoM's truth/authenticity would necessarily compel a person to remain an active member of the church and accept all of the present-day dogma which comes out of the mouths of Holland and other church leaders. Just as God give us truth line upon line, and precept upon precept, here a litte, and there a little, it is perfectly plausible that serious doctrinal error persist in the church even if the BoM is true. While these doctrinal errors do not necessarily compel a person to leave the church, they are significant enough to seriously undermine the idea that our leaders' purported revelations and sermons are always from God.

[Deborah]

I would not have asked for a reference if I didn't think the assertion that Smith took solace in the words of the BOM, in the hour he died to be a material fact underlying the argument that was presented.

If there is no reference to support that fact, and its mere supposition by Holland, then just admit it, and move on. The argument, of course, is far less persuasive when its premised on supposition.

And this is what the discussion has come down to. If this is the ammunition the antis are throwing then I think they are showing their desperation. What difference does it make if one supposes that he took solace. Certainly the fact that he and Hyrum read it indicates they were looking for solace, particularly when Joseph knew he wouldn't be coming back from this. The verse he read was indeed a farewell statement and fit the moment:

And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the Gentiles grace, that they might have charity. And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me: If they have not charity it mattereth not unto thee, thou hast been faithful; wherefore thy garments shall be made clean. And because thou hast seen thy weakness, thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father. And now I . . . bid farewell unto the Gentiles; yea, and also unto my brethren whom I love, until we shall meet before the judgment-seat of Christ, where all men shall know that my garments are not spotted with your blood.

[Deborah]

dang duplicate post.

[Jeff K.]

After listening to Holland himself, it's fascinating to see many of what appear to be defensive comments from 'both sides of the peanut gallery' about Holland's talk and tone.

I am not surprised that believers were both energized and galvanized by what they felt was a passionate, rallying testimony motivated by righteous love.

I'm also not surprised that many former-believers interpreted the talk by perceiving reflections of desperation and antagonism.

After all, each of us often perceives the word not as it is--but as we, ourselves, are.

Holland, clearly, was not trying to be diplomatic or attempt to bridge any gaps between divergent ideologies in this discourse. His was not a moment to examine the question of, "How wide the divide...?" Rather, he vehemently spoke to the LDS philosophy that one must either be "hot or cold." His desire to stand as a witness of his belief in the gospel he represents was as electrifying as it was polarizing--and I believe that is exactly the effect he was aiming for.

Love it, hate it, or anything 'in between,' it seems clear that Holland gave one of the more memorable talks in quite a while. I've no doubt that many of the faithful will consider this remarkably effective talk as a defining one for many years to come--and perhaps that, itself, is the greatest measure of it's own impact.

My view,

Darin

I would agree with Darin, it is a defining moment.

[Daniel Peterson]

And this is what the discussion has come down to. If this is the ammunition the antis are throwing then I think they are showing their desperation. What difference does it make if one supposes that he took solace. Certainly the fact that he and Hyrum read it indicates they were looking for solace, particularly when Joseph knew he wouldn't be coming back from this. The verse he read was indeed a farewell statement and fit the moment:

A long lost document, in Joseph Smith's hand, has just been discovered, and I'm privileged to reveal it here first:

"It seems that we're about to die. Well, so what? Big deal. I've had a good run. The tarring and feathering, the mobbings, the endless hiding, the knocked-out tooth, the imprisonments, near-execution, being driven from state to state, the virulent public hatred, the sufferings of my family and my friends, and now my impending violent death at a young age -- it's been much more than worth these trivialities. I lived well, making scores of dollars a year. I had a great social life (heh heh heh). So now I die at thirty-eight and go to oblivion, or else to Hell. Sounds like a fair trade. Of course, my idiot brother Hyrum actually believes this nonsense. What a fool. Just now, he's reading a bit of Solomon Spalding's purloined novel aloud to me, thinking it's going to make me feel better! He still believes it's for real! I have to admit that seeing how I've still got him completely bamboozled, along with my ridiculous mother and my wife and my disgusting children (wish I'd managed to sire a few easy marks with some of my gullible girlfriends to go along with Emma's spawn, dang it), is quite enough to make me feel just fine. It's empty-headed fanatics like this that, if my plans work out, are going to die across the plains and in the Rocky Mountains, where I've been encouraging them to go. Oh man. Hyrum's still droning on with that religious drivel. Must keep a straight face. Trying to look solemn. (It's hard! Even for a practiced deceiver like me!) 'Oh yeah, Hy my bro, that's real heavy stuff. Like, dude, I feel so holy now.' ROTL! What . . . a . . . moron!. Well, anyway, toodle oo, fair world! Suckers!"

[rockslider]

A long lost document, in Joseph Smith's hand, has just been discovered, and I'm privileged to reveal it here first:

"It seems that we're about to die. Well, so what? Big deal. I've had a good run. The tarring and feathering, the mobbings, the endless hiding, the knocked-out tooth, the imprisonments, near-execution, being driven from state to state, the virulent public hatred, the sufferings of my family and my friends, and now my impending violent death at a young age -- it's been much more than worth these trivialities. I lived well, making scores of dollars a year. I had a great social life (heh heh heh). So now I die at thirty-eight and go to oblivion, or else to Hell. Sounds like a fair trade. Of course, my idiot brother Hyrum actually believes this nonsense. What a fool. Just now, he's reading a bit of Solomon Spalding's purloined novel aloud to me, thinking it's going to make me feel better! He still believes it's for real! I have to admit that seeing how I've still got him completely bamboozled, along with my ridiculous mother and my wife and my disgusting children (wish I'd managed to sire a few easy marks with some of my gullible girlfriends to go along with Emma's spawn, dang it), is quite enough to make me feel just fine. It's empty-headed fanatics like this that, if my plans work out, are going to die across the plains and in the Rocky Mountains, where I've been encouraging them to go. Oh man. Hyrum's still droning on with that religious drivel. Must keep a straight face. Trying to look solemn. (It's hard! Even for a practiced deceiver like me!) 'Oh yeah, Hy my bro, that's real heavy stuff. Like, dude, I feel so holy now.' ROTL! What . . . a . . . moron!. Well, anyway, toodle oo, fair world! Suckers!"

Ok, now you've clearly crossed the line.

That was funny

[LifeOnaPlate]

For Petes sake Talk about "offending for a word."!!! LOAP I here ya!!!

Does the "in the hour of his death he read from the book of mormon" have to mean 3600 seconds before the Mob stormed the Jail?

Can't it mean the metaphorical Hour of?! Such as when the Pope says... "in the hour of the Lord Passion he called his deciples together and Broke bread.

Good grief and well done, yours is the most likely reading IMO. I overlooked it, good catch.

[jkfrost]

I would just like to announce that I was insulted by Elder Holland's talk and that I'm frothing with rage about it.

frothing? somehow that makes me hungry...

[LifeOnaPlate]

The mystery is closer to being solved. I updated my blog post with information on the duplicate claimants and received the following in reply:

Anonymous said...

[regarding] footnote #7, I am a member of the Bathsheba W. Smith family, we dontatd the similar Book of Mormon to the church as stated in the footnotes. When we donated it, the Church Museum curator was excited and had someone bring the said Book of Mormon out to look at them both together. We knew there were other books and we believe Hyrum was bearing his testimony to his close family and friends by visiting them and sharing the very same scripture with them. We belive there may be more "very same book"s.

October 6, 2009 12:43 PM

I responded:

Anonymous, thank you for visiting and adding your thoughts. You present a plausible scenario. Do you have any family history records that describe the meeting other than the oral recollections? I can certainly imagine them all reading their Book of Mormon copies together and turning down the pages, that makes good sense.

Now, I wonder how John Taylor knew about the gathering, whether he was there, and where he got his information from for D&C 135 where he describes Hyrum reading and so forth.

Can you contact me by email at LifeOnGoldPlates(at)yahoo.com?

October 6, 2009 12:51 PM

[wenglund]

I posted this on the poll thread, but after working through this one, I feel inspired to post here as well.

John Taylor never said they read the Book of Mormon in jail. There is no record of a Book of Mormon in the jail. Hyrum read the Book of Mormon before departing to Carthage and if you listen carefully to Elder Holland, he states this clearly.

I posted this there as well, and feel equally inspired to post it here:

According to the History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.32, p.600-601, Shortly after 9pm, June 26th, 1844, while in the Carthage jail, there was recorded: "During the evening the Patriarch Hyrum Smith read and commented upon extracts from the Book of Mormon, on the imprisonments and deliverance of the bore a powerful testimony to the guards of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon, the Restoration of the Gospel, the administration of angels, and that the kingdom of God was again established upon the earth, for the sake of which he was then incarcerated in that prison, and not because he had violated any law of God or man....Joseph gave expression to several presentiments that he had to die, and said 'I would like to see my family again,' and 'I would to God that I could preach to the Saints in Nauvoo once more.'"

The following morning, some time after 10am, there was written: "Both Joseph and Hyrum bore a faithful testimony to the Latter-day work, and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, and prophesied of the triumph of the Gospel over all the earth, exhorting the brethren present to faithfulness and persevering diligence in proclaiming the Gospel, building up the Temple, and performing all the duties connected with our holy religion." (ibid. p.610)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Wiki Wonka]

Just now, he's reading a bit of Solomon Spalding's purloined novel aloud to me, thinking it's going to make me feel better! He still believes it's for real!

Here's the part of the Spalding manuscript that they were reading:

"...but alas when one unlucky event happens another follows close on the heal.-the fair, plump corpulant Damsel, his affectionate sweetheart came instantly, sliding with great velocity she saw the woful position of her beloved-she wished him no harm-she raised her feet this bro't the center of gravity directly over the center of his head-here she rested a moment-his head sunk-she sunk after him his heels kicked against the wind like Jeshuran waked fat-but not a word from his lips-but his ideas came in quick succession-tho't he, what a disgrace to die here in the mud under the pressure of my sweet heart-however his time for such reflections were short-the tender hearted maid collecting all her agility in one effort dismounted & found herself on dry land i[n-] instant-not a moment to be lost; she seized her lover by one leg & draged him from the mud-a curious figure, extending about six feet six inches on the ground,-all bismeared from head to foot, spiting-puffing, panting & strugling for breath.-Poor man, the whole multitude laughing at thy calamity, shouting, rediculing-none to give thee consolation but thy loving & simpithetic partner in misfortune-Upon my soul, exclaims droll Tom-Stern formost-that bouncing Lass ought to have the highest prize for draging her ship from the mud-She was cleaning the filth from his face."

I have determined that this portion of the Spalding manuscript eventually became Helaman 3:35:

"Nevertheless they did fast and pray oft, and did wax stronger and stronger in their humility, and firmer and firmer in the faith of Christ, unto the filling their souls with joy and consolation, yea, even to the purifying and the sanctification of their hearts, which sanctification cometh because of their yielding their hearts unto God."